Expel Turkey from NATO, cancel EU application

[Red_Dave]

Turkey is an active and on the whole a brilliant addition to NATO.

No way should it be removed from NATO.
I want Turkey on Europe's side rather than what we can see now occurring, Turkey turning Eastward because Europe has wrongly rejected them.

What was unfair about Turkey's 'rejection'? not that their was one, they were told they would be allowed in after they met the Copenhagen criteria. If you dont want to follow the rules dont join the club.

 

[Efendi]

What was unfair about Turkey's 'rejection'? not that their was one, they were told they would be allowed in after they met the Copenhagen criteria. If you dont want to follow the rules dont join the club.

Rejecting Turkey before negotiations end, is unfair.

Telling that you will be allowed in EU after you meet Copenhagen criteria is far different than telling that you will be rejected and you have no way to be in EU.

Turkey's EU membership is not only demanded by Turkish state, but also EU deman Turkey's membership, thats why there are negotiations. Rejection means stoping the negotiations, on any conditions. Behaving as if Turkey will be in today is unmeaningfull, while there is ongoing negotiations on its course.

Rejection is not matter of Turkeys being ready for the Union, is not also about Cophenhagen criterias.

Personally I am against EU membership, It is not worth to enter. Beside economic reasons, I don't think Turkey can produce policies with these guy having this narrow mindset limited with religion and racism.

 

[washunut]

Turkey is an active and on the whole a brilliant addition to NATO.

No way should it be removed from NATO.
I want Turkey on Europe's side rather than what we can see now occurring, Turkey turning Eastward because Europe has wrongly rejected them.

Turkey needs to be removed from NATO ASAP. Just one example. There may be contingency plans on NATO action as Iran gets closer to the bomb. Do we want our forces at risk as Turkey shares those plans with their pals in Iran, Syria etc.

 

[Winston Smith]

Turkey has always done our nations bidding, from the war in Korea, and beyond. Turkey has never attacked the United States of America. From it's inception, Turkey has been a faithful NATO member.

Besides, I like the Turks. They are great soldiers.

They've become more independent in recent years, though, having refused to cooperate with the Iraq war and now the Iran sanctions. Unlike some other European nations, Turkey is listening to the anti-war opinion of its people. And despite the rhetoric of liberation that we often hear, there are few things that enrage the American right wing more than a Muslim nation showing signs of democracy.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Turkey is just following her economic benefits that is all.

That can't be true. The economic performance of all of the middle eastern economies put together (save Israel) is abysmal, particualrly when you exclude the gulf states. Fostering ties with Israel and Europe is far better from a Turkish economic perspective. This shift is clearly ideological (which many saw comming since Erdogan was elected) and political (if Turkey wants to be a regional powerrhouse, the Middle East is the region in which to do that).

Turkeys strong ties with Syria, Iraq, and other mideastern countries is more favourable than isolation.

false dichotomy. Turkey was and is never at risk of isolation. It's geopolitical strategic value is too important, and as long as they don't go completely bat-**** insane like the Iranians, they have nothing to fear (and they know it).

Besided it is Turkeys right to improve her relationships with these country.

irrelevant. It is within my rights to quit my job and live in an undergorund shelter without any contact with the outside world.

Doesn't make that a smart move.

Many of the EU member countries do the same, when it comes to Turkey it is regarded in different way. It is not fair aproach.

Turkey is regarded differently because its interests are different. Turkey is not in this for financial advantage, they are in it for ideological and geo-political (pseudo-imperial) purposes. And that makes its play in the region very different than Europe's.

Of course, Europe is also not relying on demagoguery, manufactured outrage and playing to the worst of Middle Eastern culture to improve its image in the region like Turkey is.

Turkey will never be in EU.

probably not. Of course, they are illegally occupying Cyprus, which should be addressed at some point, no? Maybe doing something to address the systematic ethnic clensing they perpetrated on their portion of that island as well? That might help.

First of all EU memberships don't have worthy benefit to Turkey besides her potential harm on the economy. I am not sure Turkey won't have problem when she is in with the hatefull face of Christianity and racism of Nazis. It seem to be on rise. Most European define themshelf as Christian club.

Well, that's not even remotely true. Most Europeans, and European culture, is intensely secular. While historical events do shape European political and cultural life, your charatcerization of Europe demonstrates a very profound misunderstanding, IMO.

Turkey is mostly rejected for being muslim. There is no smell of democracy, universalism, humanism....

I don't think that's true. Fears are both economic (see the backlash against Poles in the UK) and cultural (Turkey does not come from the liberal tradition and there are concerns it does not have the same respect for what are viewed in Europe to be base-line levels of tolerance, openness and individualism.

And Erdogan has done nothing to make Europe feel any more comfortable in that regard (having purposely moved Turkey in the opposite direction).

 

[Red_Dave]

Rejecting Turkey before negotiations end, is unfair.

Telling that you will be allowed in EU after you meet Copenhagen criteria is far different than telling that you will be rejected and you have no way to be in EU.

Turkey's EU membership is not only demanded by Turkish state, but also EU deman Turkey's membership, thats why there are negotiations. Rejection means stoping the negotiations, on any conditions. Behaving as if Turkey will be in today is unmeaningfull, while there is ongoing negotiations on its course.

Rejection is not matter of Turkeys being ready for the Union, is not also about Cophenhagen criterias.

Personally I am against EU membership, It is not worth to enter. Beside economic reasons, I don't think Turkey can produce policies with these guy having this narrow mindset limited with religion and racism.

Thats the point though, I'ld hardly say Turkish membership was 'rejected' no one has told them they will never be allowed in, but again its hardly racist to say that Turkey should follow the same rules as everyone else.

 

[Efendi]

That can't be true. The economic performance of all of the middle eastern economies put together (save Israel) is abysmal, particualrly when you exclude the gulf states. Fostering ties with Israel and Europe is far better from a Turkish economic perspective. This shift is clearly ideological (which many saw comming since Erdogan was elected) and political (if Turkey wants to be a regional powerrhouse, the Middle East is the region in which to do that).

There is no trade off between Turkish EU relationships and Turkish mideastern relationships. Increasing our economic relationships and cooperations with mideastern countries doesn't mean decreasing relationships with EU or on the other words “shift”. I know mideast is not good market for Turkish export compared to EU, where we pay no custom taxes except for raw materials.

false dichotomy. Turkey was and is never at risk of isolation. It's geopolitical strategic value is too important, and as long as they don't go completely bat-**** insane like the Iranians, they have nothing to fear (and they know it).

Iran seems to be less dangerous than crazzy Israel now a days.

It is within my rights to quit my job and live in an undergorund shelter without any contact with the outside world.

It is far different case. In this case you don't give up a bussiness, you enlarge a bussiness. Improving relationships doesn't mean decreasing relationships with west. If west want to loss Turkey it is not because Turkey wanted it. It is because they wanted, and It will be costly for west.

Turkey is regarded differently because its interests are different. Turkey is not in this for financial advantage, they are in it for ideological and geo-political (pseudo-imperial) purposes. And that makes its play in the region very different than Europe's.

You adhere resons, but a guy who invest in North Iraq, Syria think about his money rather than ideology. Because it is profiteable. Turks are rushing to Syria, Iraq, Caucassia, Balkan, to make bussiness and earn good money, by making investment, import cheap materials. Do you think the main motives of this guy is ideologic? Or money is better candidate as the main motivation?

Ideologic investment, ideologic export, bussiness, import.. What do these means.

Of course, Europe is also not relying on demagoguery, manufactured outrage and playing to the worst of Middle Eastern culture to improve its image in the region like Turkey is.

How much money west make?

probably not. Of course, they are illegally occupying Cyprus, which should be addressed at some point, no? Maybe doing something to address the systematic ethnic clensing they perpetrated on their portion of that island as well? That might help.

It is not about Cyprus, It is about EU interests and Turkeys interest if she has.

Well, that's not even remotely true. Most Europeans, and European culture, is intensely secular. While historical events do shape European political and cultural life, your charatcerization of Europe demonstrates a very profound misunderstanding, IMO.

They said to me they don't want Islam in Eu. Some bans Burka, some bans minarets. System may be on secularism inspite of anti-secular moves, but what I mean people should respect freedom of religion. Correct me there is problem of respecting religious freedom in EU. Freedom of religion should be more than codes on papers.

I don't think that's true. Fears are both economic (see the backlash against Poles in the UK) and cultural (Turkey does not come from the liberal tradition and there are concerns it does not have the same respect for what are viewed in Europe to be base-line levels of tolerance, openness and individualism.

Honestly It is not convincing. What do you know about Turkish culture then under the brands like liberal traditions, opennes, individualism. Is conservative EU with her oldie populations more tolerant, more open to new ideas? There smells full of phobia of any kind. EU have problems with their minority, because they can't tolerate them. Also they don't want to find democratic solutions to these problems because they don't even want to tolerate.

Turkish culture is more multicultural than most of the EU countries. Turks are also Greek, also Armenian, Slav, Caucassian, Mideastern,... Thats why It is rich on any aspect.

Humanism, tolerance, is in their cultural roots. Mevlana, Yunus emre and their followers spread the love and tolerance. Last year was year of Mevlana.

You may remind the nationalism dark time in the fall of the Ottoman empire. But the worst EU experienced in WWI and WWII doesn't make them less tolerant amazingly. History of EU has never tolerated different culture, It is too bloody past indeed not only compared to Ottoman history but also compared the world history.

And I know there are problems, in the terms of freedom, minority rights. But it is not cultural problem it is problem of law system.

And Erdogan has done nothing to make Europe feel any more comfortable in that regard (having purposely moved Turkey in the opposite direction)

What has changed negativelly between Turkish EU relationships? Turkey can move toward east and west also towards north and south, every country can do it. What is problems in Turkeys Global policies. You make trade with Africa, China, what is wrong with trade and economic relationship with Syria and Iraq. Plus trade always brings peace. I don't understand this narrow mindset.

West has benefit with Turkey who has better relationship with her neighbouring countries. There are not much countries in the west Syria, Iraq, Iran and some other trusted.

 

[Efendi]

Thats the point though, I'ld hardly say Turkish membership was 'rejected' no one has told them they will never be allowed in, but again its hardly racist to say that Turkey should follow the same rules as everyone else.

As far as I know Turkey is not trying to change the course of negotiations. I mean they don't want to add or exclude or alter the chapters. If both side disagree on memberships, It is their bussiness. My point is, If one say I don't want EU and Turkey get to agreement, he should have sensible reasons for his ideas.

It is unmeaningfull to say, I don't want Turkey and EU agree in the future because Turkey doesn't fit Cophenhagen criterias today

 

[24107]

Now that the Turkish leadership has opted to cater to the worst filth, the pro-terrorist islamist element of the voters, and side with the enemies of the West, namely Iran and Syria, it is time for the West to expel Turkey from NATO as a start.

Turkey no longer serves a legitimate function in the organization, as it has openly sided with the enemies in which the West is engage in a military conflict on the Afghanistan and Iraqi fronts. Since the treaty requires an alliance amongst like-minded nations, and Turkey has opted to choose the enemies of freedom and democracy, there is little reason for it to remain within the treaty.

At this point, it would certainly behoove the Turkish military to conduct yet another coup and remove the cancerous government of the AKP/Erdogan, and possibly place him on trial for violating the Turkish constitution calling for a separation of religion and state.

I would also believe it would be prudent for the EU to finalize its rejection of the Turkish application to the EU, along with the expulsion of Turkey from the WTO. The WTO rules require open trade procedures, which Turkey is violating with its boycotts and blockades of Armenia and Cyprus.

turkey has troops in Afghanistan, unlike isreal. turkey's actions in support of nato speak louder than your words.

 

[ludahai]

Iran seems to be less dangerous than crazzy Israel now a days.

You mean an Israel who has to deal with Lebanese soldiers sniping at their own across an international border and has to deal with a terrorist government in Gaza who has a long history of lobbing rockets over the border? The same country that tried to peacefully divert a ship running a blockade on a hostile territory all but at war with Israel and was met with violence when it borded that ship? As opposed to Iran who repeatedly states that Israel must be driven into the sea and has long supported terror organizations who are actively terrorizing Israeli citizens and have been doing so for decades??/ You mean that Israel and Iran???

It is not about Cyprus, It is about EU interests and Turkeys interest if she has.

But you have to know that this IS part of the problem as far as the EU is concerened. It isn't the only issue. Turkey does not even come close to meeting European standards on human rights. The death penalty has got to go if Turkey will ever be seriously considered for entry into the EU. They also need to improve their human rights in regards to the kurds and recognize the reality of the Armenian genocide.

They said to me they don't want Islam in Eu. Some bans Burka, some bans minarets. System may be on secularism inspite of anti-secular moves, but what I mean people should respect freedom of religion. Correct me there is problem of respecting religious freedom in EU. Freedom of religion should be more than codes on papers.

Which EU member banned minarets? You know as well as I do that EU countries have far better records on freedom of religion than the vast majority of the Islamic world.

Humanism, tolerance, is in their cultural roots. Mevlana, Yunus emre and their followers spread the love and tolerance. Last year was year of Mevlana.

I agree that Turks are generally quite tolerant, but don't bring up the historical validity of the Armenian genocide because that tolerance then goes out the window... However, Turks are not the only ones guilty of losing tolerance when brought face to face with its history (Greeks in my experience are no better)

 

[ludahai]

turkey has troops in Afghanistan, unlike isreal. turkey's actions in support of nato speak louder than your words.

You know as well as I do why there are no Israeli troops in Afghanistan... and it has nothing to do with lack of support for the mission...

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Which EU member banned minarets? You know as well as I do that EU countries have far better records on freedom of religion than the vast majority of the Islamic world.

Switzerland (assuming it is an EU member)

 

[CJ 2.0]

Switzerland (assuming it is an EU member)

it isn't...

 

[Wiseone]

Now that the Turkish leadership has opted to cater to the worst filth, the pro-terrorist islamist element of the voters, and side with the enemies of the West, namely Iran and Syria, it is time for the West to expel Turkey from NATO as a start.

Turkey no longer serves a legitimate function in the organization, as it has openly sided with the enemies in which the West is engage in a military conflict on the Afghanistan and Iraqi fronts. Since the treaty requires an alliance amongst like-minded nations, and Turkey has opted to choose the enemies of freedom and democracy, there is little reason for it to remain within the treaty.

At this point, it would certainly behoove the Turkish military to conduct yet another coup and remove the cancerous government of the AKP/Erdogan, and possibly place him on trial for violating the Turkish constitution calling for a separation of religion and state.

I would also believe it would be prudent for the EU to finalize its rejection of the Turkish application to the EU, along with the expulsion of Turkey from the WTO. The WTO rules require open trade procedures, which Turkey is violating with its boycotts and blockades of Armenia and Cyprus.

So you're solution to Turkey moving away from the west, which you obviously realize is a security concern for the West and our other allies, is to just push them away anyway? How is that a solution? What is there to gain from this action? If we expel Turkey from many western/European institutions, as well as the good graces of many western nations, their only recourse is to do exactly what you don't want them to do, which is get more friendly with Middle Eastern nations. In fact it would not be illogical to state that Turkey is moving to closer relations with its Middle Eastern neighbors because it cannot achieve closer relations with its European and western neighbors, which for decades it has made an obvious preference for.

I can understand your frustration, although not some of your language and passion, but attempting to punish Turkey is only going to create a worse situation.

 

[Efendi]

You mean an Israel who has to deal with Lebanese soldiers sniping at their own across an international border and has to deal with a terrorist government in Gaza who has a long history of lobbing rockets over the border? The same country that tried to peacefully divert a ship running a blockade on a hostile territory all but at war with Israel and was met with violence when it borded that ship? As opposed to Iran who repeatedly states that Israel must be driven into the sea and has long supported terror organizations who are actively terrorizing Israeli citizens and have been doing so for decades??/ You mean that Israel and Iran???

Israel is under threath, from Hamas terrorism, They feel they are surrounded. In these conditions they can carefully think about things. Thats why they are crazzy. They don't feel safe. They kill civilians in Gaza, with the contrubutions of Hamas. Behaviour of Israel seem hard to anticipate.

The last crazzy things she did was killing civilian in the ship. If they can atack their allies. Turkey will have difficulty in trusting Israel. Iran is not a country who has capacity to meet modern Turkish army in any field of warfare. They have no reasons to atack Turkey. They are more communicateable unlike Iran. Turkey wouln't like destruction of Iran. Yet she didn't want to be part of Iraq invassion. It is unpleasant decision in the long term relationships.

Many of the state in NATO would like Turkey to have good relationships with Iran, Iraq, Syria. They need Turkey in their relationships with these countries.

But you have to know that this IS part of the problem as far as the EU is concerened. It isn't the only issue.

It is not only issue related to EU negotiation, It is also benefit of Turkey as well as benefit of South Cyprus to improve relationships. For the stability of the region. Thank God Cyprus wasn't like Crete where Turkish people totally cleansed, Cypriot Turks are safe in the Island.

Turkey does not even come close to meeting European standards on human rights.

Turkey doesn't have serious human rights problems,

The death penalty has got to go if Turkey will ever be seriously considered for entry into the EU.

I don't like to correct you but there is no death penalty in Turkey. It was in the long past.

They also need to improve their human rights in regards to the kurds and recognize the reality of the Armenian genocide.

It is not only issue of EU negotiations, providing cultural rights for any Turkish citizen is duty of the state. Yet developments are on its course, no matter EU has bussiness in it or not.

reality of the Armenian genocide.

To accept it or not is ones freedom. Also there is no chapter in the negotiations related to Armenian Genocide. It is totally unrelated with negotiations between EU and Turkey.

Which EU member banned minarets? You know as well as I do that EU countries have far better records on freedom of religion than the vast majority of the Islamic world.

It would be ironic for EU to compare hershelf with Iran and Saudi Arabia, about religious freedom. These contries are in terrible conditions. I can't see any sense in comparing EU with them. Their intolerancy doesn't make EU more or less tolerant. It can not be excuse for antidemocracies and intolerancies in EU.

It is Switzerland that bans minaret, ignoring opinion of local people of Islam religion.

I agree that Turks are generally quite tolerant, but don't bring up the historical validity of the Armenian genocide because that tolerance then goes out the window... However, Turks are not the only ones guilty of losing tolerance when brought face to face with its history (Greeks in my experience are no better)

We Turks and Greeks, have too painfull history. It is not intolerancy actually, it is trauma related to past. It is hard to understand from outside. This sorrows are not hard to share. I have many Greek friends. Feeling soory for the shamefull past is not difficult issue.

 

[Efendi]

no one has told them they will never be allowed in,

It is actually what the people who are against Turkish memberships usually says. Most notably the remarks of Sarkozy. It is not about Cophenhagen criterias.

but again its hardly racist to say that Turkey should follow the same rules as everyone else.

Turkey is not changing the course of negotiation, adding or alterning chapters.

 

[CJ 2.0]

The last crazzy things she did was killing civilian in the ship.

there were no civilians killed on that ship.

It is not only issue related to EU negotiation, It is also benefit of Turkey as well as benefit of South Cyprus to improve relationships. For the stability of the region. Thank God Cyprus wasn't like Crete where Turkish people totally cleansed

Oh, you mean like all of Turkey, which for thousands of years was Greek until it was systematically ethnically clensed after Ottoman occupation?

The Turks should never be one to play the ethnic clensing card, given the history of exactly that (and genocide). Fact is, the Turkish occupation of Cyprus completely disqualifies it from criticizing Israel. Only difference between Cyprus and the west bank, other than the fact that the Turkish attack was a completely unjustified act of aggression against a state that had demonstrated absolutely no hostility to Turkey while Israel was directly attacked from the west bank continuously for decades prior), was that Turkey completely clensed the territory it occupied, while Israel did not.

Turkey doesn't have serious human rights problems,

:lamo

It is Switzerland that bans minaret, ignoring opinion of local people of Islam religion.

which is, of course, not an EU member.

We Turks and Greeks, have too painfull history. It is not intolerancy actually, it is trauma related to past. It is hard to understand from outside. This sorrows are not hard to share. I have many Greek friends. Feeling soory for the shamefull past is not difficult issue.

this I understand. of course, it would have been the Turks "fault", however irrelevant that is, given Greek ties to that land going back thousands of years, but the Turks have not yet adopted that silly western pre-disposition to appologize for past sins at every opportunity.

 

[alexa]

there were no civilians killed on that ship.

Have you ever read 1984?

 

[Gardener]

You know as well as I do why there are no Israeli troops in Afghanistan... and it has nothing to do with lack of support for the mission...

Can you just imagine how the jackals would be howling if there were? We'd never hear the end of it.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Have you ever read 1984?

Yup.

That's why I am describing things as they are, rather than describing people VIDEOTAPED preparing for and launching a coordinated assault on troops as "civilians".

that would just be absurd...

Edit:

An observation about 1984.

Some people see 1984 as a warning - awa rning of the devices to look out for, and how they can be used to manipulate the public consciousness.

Other people see it as a guide, full of useful information about how to manipulate public opinion to exploit the masses.

The Palestinain propaganda machine has, since the begining, seen it as nothing but a guide. The very essence of the Palestinian propaganda machine (starting with the nomenclature of "Palestinian") is manipulation - to manipulate the discussion, to frame it as if the Palestinians are descendants from the Canaanites (I'm sure you've heard that meme before), deny Jewish ancestry and ties to the land, and frame it as the tiny little palestinians against the giant big bad Israelis. the Israelis who, of course, are in a state of war started by neighbours that count hundreds of millians of subjects. The Israelis who live in a state the size of New Jersey. And on and on.

So please, before you ask if I have read 1984, you really should think for a few minutes about how you have either actively embraced the worst from that book or have been thoroughly taken in by it.

Seriously.

 

[soguks]

just hilarious ! Turkey is talked to be expelled from NATO by Israel, which is not a member of NATO and the killer of 9 activists. i think Israel is living in a wonderland supplied by USA and some eruopean countries such as Germany. kill people in international waters like pirates and then demand Turkey to be expelled from NATO, just hilarious !

Turkey has been accepted into NATO after its bravery in Korea, not because of Israel, nor an Israel vote ! i think we should think Israel as a country of pirates, after all who boards down on a ship in international waters?

if some 'friends' have some suspicion about Turkey's intention, then they should read some History of Turkey, in which you will see that the same Turkey helped the jews 600 years ago in spain, and 60 years ago in Nazi's germany.

 

[CJ 2.0]

just hilarious ! Turkey is talked to be expelled from NATO by Israel, which is not a member of NATO and the killer of 9 activists.

Activists. Who planned and executed an all out assault on a boarding party coming in with paintguns to divert the aid they carried to a different port so that it could be delivered by truck to the people it was purportedly being send for.

They are activists like Hamas suicide bombers are activisist - actively pursuing a cause, using violence.

As for NATO, it isn't Israel that is pushing. It is the realization, slow but sure, that Erdogan has always intended to reorient Turkey away from the secular west towards the islamist fanatical middle east, and that while cooperation is possible, the idea of a close, intimate alliance with mutual assistance requirements is unworkable.

Turkey has been accepted into NATO after its bravery in Korea

That was a long time ago. And a different Turkey. Today, the Islamist Turkish government is slowly but surely working to undo all of the progress made by Ataturk, turning back the pages to where Islamic fundamnetalism was the core of life and politics.

if some 'friends' have some suspicion about Turkey's intention, then they should read some History of Turkey, in which you will see that the same Turkey helped the jews 600 years ago in spain, and 60 years ago in Nazi's germany.

And has actively committed genocide in the past century and was born on the destruction and ethnic clensing of ancient Greek civilization whose society was cradled there fore thousands of years.

Turkey could be a great firend. or a terrible adversary. that all depends on Turkey's leadership and the coices it makes. And so far, since he took power, Erdogan has consistently demonstrated where his loyalties, and disposition, lies.

 

[soguks]

@cj

-on the ship there were 600 people of 35 nations, do you think all was 'terrorists'? if so, whay Israel did not ARREST them? a simple question, just answer, if you can !

- it is not your - i mean Israel or a canada- bussiness to demand some bs from Turkey just because some idiots wanted, just wake up the world does not revolve around you!

- How long should Turkey show her loyality to your majesty ? and when will you start to show your loyality to Turkey ? Erdogan is not Turkey and Turkey is not Erdogan, but for you it is not important How democratic,secular etc. Turkey is, your only interest is her 'loyality' to you, if she doed smt which is not good for you, then you start to call Turkey as an anti-democratic, terror supoorter etc. who believes you? just answer Israel killed 9 activists in international sea, what should we call Israel ? Terrorist ? pirates ?


so please stop seeing the world as your puppet, cuz it is not !

-

 

[CJ 2.0]

@cj

-on the ship there were 600 people of 35 nations, do you think all was 'terrorists'? if so, whay Israel did not ARREST them? a simple question, just answer, if you can !

pretty easy, actually, happy to expalin. Not nearly all of those involved were "terrorists". those that pre-planned and insitigated the violence were also not "terrorists" because their target was military, but they were also not "civilians" in any meaningful sense of the term. They were essentially non-government affiliated (or loosely affiliated, from what I've heard) paramilitary, whihc set a carefully laid ambush while blending into and trying to form part of a civilian population group.

Note there were no casulties upon any vessels where the vessels did not contain these forces that initiated an assault on the boarding parties. That, combined with the reams of video evidence of them pre-planning, preparing for and launching their assault, and combined with the various testimony of actual civilians on that craft, is pretty compelling.

As for letting the people go, it was a political decision. For some reason, Isdrael is still deluding itself that it can appease Erdogan into being Israel's friend. Those that planned and executed this assault were allowed to go free to try to mitigate political damage that this "peaceful voyage" was designed to create.

- it is not your - i mean Israel or a canada- bussiness to demand some bs from Turkey just because some idiots wanted, just wake up the world does not revolve around you!

I'm sorry, what? Seriously, I don't really understand what you are talking about. I am not demanding anything.

What I've seen very often from the middle east, and it seems islamists all over, is a marked propensity to both have a profound sense of being victimized even when you are being outright aggresive, while at the same time never having even a semblance of awareness that your actions have consequences or that others have a right to act differently in response to your conduct. We see that pop up over and over again with the "punishing the Palestinians for exercizing democracy" meme, ignorign that maybe, just maybe, the west may not think it is a good idea to deal with a government comprised of a full-blown hard core terrorist organization.

This is similar. If Turkety wants to orient itself to a cultural, political and economic backwater to feel like the big kid in the playground, then it is fully free to do so. However, there is no requirement that I, or any other western countries, have to be your freind if you act like an ***. We are allowed to adjust our views of you, and ourt dealings with you, in direct response to YOUR choices and YOUR actions.

sorry that I need to point this out, but now that you know, I guess let me be the first to welcome you to real life.

- How long should Turkey show her loyality to your majesty ? and when will you start to show your loyality to Turkey ? Erdogan is not Turkey and Turkey is not Erdogan, but for you it is not important How democratic,secular etc. Turkey is, your only interest is her 'loyality' to you, if she doed smt which is not good for you, then you start to call Turkey as an anti-democratic, terror supoorter etc. who believes you?

I actually have a lot of support for Turkey, which has continued and will likely continue for a considerable time in the future, in spite of the fact that Turkey's leadership quite some time ago started moving Turkey down the wrong path. But as the leadership moves, the country slowly but surely follows. The impact of religion in turkety, and the current role of the military, would not have been tolerated 10 years ago, and who knows how far out it will be 10 years from now.

Seriosuly, the islamists in charge in Turkey are a very abd thing, and the people there, or the military, need to fix the problem. if they don't, at some point, the behaviour of the leadership and the views of the people will cause a lot of re-evaluation of the support previously provided to Turkey. because the country that elicited that support will no longer exist.

just answer Israel killed 9 activists in international sea, what should we call Israel ? Terrorist ? pirates ?

the victim of a set-up. Israel offered to allow in all goods by land, once they were searched. the "relief activists" refused. Israel borded with paintball guns and strict orders not to engage in any violence when taking the ships. On no other ship was there any violence. However, on the one ship where there was a pre-planned ambush of the boarding party, with soldiers shot, stabbed and beaten, the soldiers were allowed to enagge with their pistols (the only firearms they brought, which is EXTREMELY unusual for a boarding party) to defend themselves, and killed 9 of those who were assaulting them.

so please stop seeing the world as your puppet, cuz it is not !

Back to victimization. And so the circle is complete.

 

[soguks]

@cj

the only thing you are doing is just demagogy ! however, i would like to show the reality in some countries, lets start with Iraq, Usa and some 'modern' countries have brought the democracy into Iraq, but i and some others daily witness some killings up to 50-60 in a day, people in ıraq are living full democracy, thanks to western countries and shame on Saddam, who i ,as a Turk ,had'have no sypmhaty. should i go on with afghanistan and democracy?

Usa and some countries should give up spoiling Israel, cuz its consequences are being lived by everybody, every muslim,christian etc. killing Palestinians will not bring peace into neither Israel nor other muslim countries.period. usa and others should try to convince Israel not to kill innocent people, cuz its bad influence is felt not only in israel, but also in all region, even in usa.

according to you, Israel is an angel, she has never done bad things, all faults are made by others and Israel is just the victim of those faults. stone-throwing children were killed by paintball, 9 activists were killed paintball, attack helicopters killed 1500 people in the last assault of Israel with paintball. Israel use paintball, but somehow there are always some killings. still believe in paintball lie?