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Ex-Spain PM: If Israel goes down, we all go down

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Your choice of language was clear, they had no rights to the land. You can squirm or whine or keep up the personal attacks, but the post is there for all to see, its now part of the historical record of this forum - and you can do nothing to change it.

Everything else you try to claim only makes you look that much sillier trying to twist what was an obvious statement. But you keep trying, its like watching kids with ants and a magnifying glass
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why would you state that the residents of the property in question had no legal rights to that residence?
 
LOL Aznar? he is a laughing stock in Spain.. no one should take him seriously on anything. Even his own party tries everything to distance themselves from him. His political fate was sealed when he accused ETA of the Madrid bombings and should not be taken seriously at all.

He's the ex-PM of Spain, he was in a position of power before and he know how things work.
Besides that knowing your own opinions I can see why you'll disagree with him.
 
why would you state that the residents of the property in question had no legal rights to that residence?

See, Joe's issue is that he has a comprehension failure. No one stated that the residents had no legal rights to their residences. Simply that there was no right to just up and create an Israeli state in such a contested portion of the world.

But god forbid angsty rant be abandoned in favor of actual understanding of written English. :lol:
 
Simply that there was no right to just up and create an Israeli state in such a contested portion of the world.
Actually yes there was, it's called the right to self-determination.
Why would you believe that Jews have had no right to form a state of their own in the land?
 
Actually yes there was, it's called the right to self-determination.
Why would you believe that Jews have had no right to form a state of their own in the land?

I think everyone should have a home, Apoc. I just don't believe that taking such a heavily contested piece of land where more than one group lived and called home and handing it to one group over the other was exactly moral, ethical, or even legal.

I hold no dislike of Jews and anyone on this forum who knows me knows that I blindly supported Israel for a long time because of my affection for my Jewish friends here and in RL. However, after reading more of the history and following Israel's actions in the middle east...that's a support I can no longer give. The Palestinians are in a bad place and the creation of Israel was a direct cause of them being where they are. And the Israelis come off as huge bullies and if they socked in the nose occasionally by a rocket in a cafe from across the border...well that's what happens to bullies.

And your "self determination" bull****...well you would be a little more credible with that if Israel weren't so quick to dismiss the same rights of the Palestinians.
 
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I think everyone should have a home, Apoc. I just don't believe that taking such a heavily contested piece of land where more than one group lived and called home and handing it to one group over the other was exactly moral, ethical, or even legal.
Yes, there were two groups living in that land, that's why it was split in two.
Otherwise Israel would have been formed on 100% of the land.
So again, what's your reasoning?
I hold no dislike of Jews and anyone on this forum who knows me knows that I blindly supported Israel for a long time because of my affection for my Jewish friends here and in RL. However, after reading more of the history and following Israel's actions in the middle east...that's a support I can no longer give.
That's not what I've asked, I honestly don't care about what you believe, with an emphasis on believe, that Israel was doing.
The Palestinians are in a bad place and the creation of Israel was a direct cause of them being where they are.
Historically false, they could have a state in the land just like the Jews do, but they've decided to try and annihilate Israel.
The creation of Israel is not the cause for their situation, but their own past decisions.
And the Israelis come off as huge bullies
I'm well aware about how the international media decides to paint Israel.
and if they socked in the nose occasionally by a rocket in a cafe from across the border...well that's what happens to bullies.
That's terrorism supporting, and that implies on inhumanity.
 
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That's terrorism supporting, and that implies on inhumanity.

The tactics of the rebel Americans when fighting Brittain were considered terrorism in their day, too. And if Israel would stop screwing with the daily lives of the Palestinians, they might not be so inclined to bloody Israel's lip once in a while.

And I don't rightly give a damn if you think I am inhumane. Israel deserves to have as much resistance as the Palestinians can muster. If it means a school bus or two end up hit by a rocket or a cafe goes down to one of their suicide bombers...oh well. I'm sure you guys just can't wait for the chance to run a few Palestinian women and children under your tank treads again anyway so it's a win-win, huh?
 
The tactics of the rebel Americans when fighting Brittain were considered terrorism in their day, too. And if Israel would stop screwing with the daily lives of the Palestinians, they might not be so inclined to bloody Israel's lip once in a while.

And I don't rightly give a damn if you think I am inhumane. Israel deserves to have as much resistance as the Palestinians can muster. If it means a school bus or two end up hit by a rocket or a cafe goes down to one of their suicide bombers...oh well. I'm sure you guys just can't wait for the chance to run a few Palestinian women and children under your tank treads again anyway so it's a win-win, huh?

That's something you don't understand, Jallman.
No matter what you believe the Israeli government is doing and what are its intentions, once you justify and promote the murdering of its citizens, if only because they were born Israeli, you are no longer part of humanity.

It's like those who justify 9/11 because of the American involvement in Iraq.
Even if the American involvement was that immoral, it still doesn't justify the murder of innocent American citizens by the terrorists.
 
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That's something you don't understand, Jallman.
No matter what you believe the Israeli government is doing and what are its intentions, once you justify and promote the murdering of its citizens, if only because they were born Israeli, you are no longer part of humanity.

It would be nice if Israel felt the same way about Palestinians. :shrug:
 
It would be nice if Israel felt the same way about Palestinians. :shrug:

Your own opinions.
As I said before, that doesn't allow you to justify the shedding of the blood of innocents, to justify the murder of Israeli civilians.
 
Your own opinions.

The historical record and daily headlines.

As I said before,

I know...you say, you say, you say. I heard you blather it out the first time..

that doesn't allow you to justify the shedding of the blood of innocents, to justify the murder of Israeli civilians.

doesn't allow Israel to justify the shedding of the blood of innocents, to justify the murder of Palestinian civilians. Doesn't stop Israel from supporting and carrying it out though, does it?

Good for the goose and all that.
 
He's the ex-PM of Spain, he was in a position of power before and he know how things work.

Yea.. thats why he accused ETA of the Madrid bombings. He knew how things worked..:roll: The party he was a leader of and in a position of power is ripe with corruption scandals all created while he was in power and lead the country.. go figure. Aznar is a joke because of this. His policies laid the ground work for among other things the building crisis in Spain and his lack of reform has put Spain in the hole where it is today. It is suppose to be the conservative politicians that reform labour markets, not the left.. but now it is left and they have no choice. He was the Bush of Spain and a Neo Con at heart.

I actually liked the moron before he accused ETA of something they did not do. I even liked him despite his asslicking of Bush on the Iraq issue. And he is far better than the toad the PP have as leader at the moment.

Besides that knowing your own opinions I can see why you'll disagree with him.

I made no comment on the opinion, so you cant know jack****.

As for my opinion here it is. At the first glance the source is biased, with no link to the original article. Secondly the original article was printed in the Times, a well know conservative noise machine which is owned by Newscorp who loves to use its media empire to promote a political agenda... that is 2 red flags. Now thanks to a bit of free time at the Times (since it is now pay only) website I did get access to the whole article and read it.

He uses the typical right wing mantra on Israel with no consideration of the other side. His views are typical and conservative. He is nothing but an apologist for Israel and tries to green-light actions of oppression just because Israel is suppose to be a democratic western nation and happens to be seen as an ally of the US. Those are the two justifications he claims are enough to allow Israel a get out of jail free card. Pathetic attitude.

Now what he is right about is that the big threat is radical Islam, but what he fails to contemplate like many right wingers, is that the plight of the Palestinian people is used by radical Islam and dictators in the region as a recruiting too and excusel and that makes Israel less secure. There is a cause and effect and he ignores both and defends Israel right to oppress the Palestinian people and not want peace.

So in short, it is a typical right wing propaganda piece that ignores bits and pieces because it does not fit the right wings strange world.

Now the funny part is.. now he talks about radical Islam, and yet he was more occupied by ETA and blaming ETA for the Madrid bombings.. go figure.. guess it is better late than never...

As for the "if Isreal goes down, we all go down" idea.. I actually agree some what, but not for the reasons you think. If Israel goes down it will go down fighting and taking as many of us (as in the general population of the planet) with them by using nuclear weapons that will spread radiation across the planet. On top of that the US might join in and well.. hello global war with massive fall out. Good luck in living in that kind of world.

And yes Israel has the right to exist in peace, as does the Palestinian people and anyone else.
 
The tactics of the rebel Americans when fighting Brittain were considered terrorism in their day, too. And if Israel would stop screwing with the daily lives of the Palestinians, they might not be so inclined to bloody Israel's lip once in a while.

The 2 bear no basis in comparison, affirming your total lack of knowledge.

If it means a school bus or two end up hit by a rocket or a cafe goes down to one of their suicide bombers...oh well. I'm sure you guys just can't wait for the chance to run a few Palestinian women and children under your tank treads again anyway so it's a win-win, huh?

This post is indicative of psychosis, and has rendered you persona non grata. I will not converse with terror supporters or those who cheer the murder of children. What I would like to say about you would lead to a thread ban, and I have no interest in indulging your idiocies. You are now ignored, and I would imagine most rational posters will also bypass your drivel as well.
 
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The 2 bear no basis in comparison, affirming your total lack of knowledge.

Actually, I just showed a comparison.

This post is indicative of psychosis, and has rendered you persona non grata. I will not converse with terror supporters or those who cheer the murder of children. What I would like to say about you would lead to a thread ban, and I have no interest in indulging your idiocies. You are now ignored, and I would imagine most rational posters will also bypass your drivel as well.

Aww, I'm on ignore. Boo-****ing-hoo. :roll:
 
Because the UK delegated the task of determining how to bring sovereignty to its territory to the UN. The UN's Charter does not bar the UN from handling such issues. Clearly, the UK could have made the decision on its own given its authority under the League of Nations Mandate, but it chose to delegate the task. In turn, the UN chose to handle the issue through the General Assembly, not the Security Council.
So basically stating what I already said... Plans for the future of Palestine were not decided upon by the inhabitants of Palestine, but by governments under immense US pressure. That is contradictory to the concept of self-determination. It is foolish to suggest the Partition of Palestine was committed by democratic principles. In what way is the majority being denied a say in what happens to them a form of self-determination? And the UK became the Mandatory because of what...? Foreign nations acting out in the region with total disregard for the inhabitants. And I'm not saying Britain is flawless in all this. They are a key reason why the ultra-conservative House of Saud is in power in Saudi Arabia and not the moderate House of Hashim.
On the third point, one could similarly argue that had the Arab leadership cooperated with UNSCOP, the territory of the recommended Arab state would have been larger. Had the Arab states not attempted to conquer the newly re-established Israel, a Palestinian state could have been in place and the issue of how to address the needs of Palestinian refugees and their descendants would not have become necessary. Had the UN acted to break Egypt's blockade, the 1967 war would have been avoided and Israel would not be in possession of the West Bank, much less the issue of border changes to bring about "secure" boundaries might not have been relevant. The fact is, decisions/choices/actions have consequences, some of which can be irreversible e.g., the clock cannot be turned back to 1947 with the Arabs being given a fresh chance to gain a state within the boundaries recommended by UNSCOP.
Speculation. What happened happened because of unfair events that played on the ground. I can speculate too. Had the WZO maintained their statement that they were not trying to establish a Jewish state, then there might have been peace and still a Jewish National Home in Palestine. Had thousands of Jews not illegaly immigrated into the Palestine, then perhaps the local Muslim and Christian Arabs would not have felt threatened. If the inhabitants of the land had their say, maybe their would be a higher number of Jews inside a nondivided Palestine.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Hmmm... I could dish out a whole mess of infractions and such, but there are enough of them and enough acting out that, instead, I'm closing the thread. You want to act out, do it elsewhere.
 
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