Ex-Spain PM: If Israel goes down, we all go down

[alexa]

And what suggestions do you offer toward that end? You demand an end to the blockade, yet believe that israel's security can be maintained. To a thinking person, the 2 are incompatible.

I believe the blockadre will be removed. There is now an enormous momentum calling for it's removal. There is going to be increased action until it happens. More flotillas, more peaceful protest, more sanctions and prohibitions on Israeli goods. The blockade will need to end and it will sooner or later.

I think it is a pity that Israel does not recognise it. The sooner Israel recognises it, the sooner the International Community can also start demanding of Hamas. The longer Israel holds out, the poorer I see her long term situation.

This is a 50-year planned Crusade.

Indeed from the OP it does indeed appear some of you are involved in a crusade. Something I knew nothing about until I started posting on Internet forums and came across people trying to stir up hatred against Muslims.

I and most people are not interested in your crusade.

 

[Apocalypse]

I believe the blockadre will be removed.

Not until Hamas declares that it would stop the terrorism.

There is now an enormous momentum calling for it's removal.

Not anymore.
For the past few days nations were applausing Israel for easing the blockade.

Besides that, now that the blockade is a military blockade, I cannot see how anyone will be able to reason its removal.
That would just expose the demanders' true willingness, to take the Israeli right to self-defense away from the Israeli people.

There is going to be increased action until it happens. More flotillas

The flotillas are not going to put pressure on Israel.
You've seen what happened with Rachel Corrie, it didn't even last for more than a few hours on the news, it had zero impact on Israel politically.
If the activists don't create bloodshed by trying to kill the soldiers, it wouldn't make headlines.

more peaceful protest

Same as the flotillas, wouldn't put pressure on Israel.

more sanctions and prohibitions on Israeli goods.

What country does that exactly?

The blockade will need to end and it will sooner or later.

The blockade has become a military blockade, why do you wish to end it?
And you didn't answer joergan's question, what do you offer for Israel to do instead?
You can't just demend Israel to give up on its major self-defense practice without offering an alternative.

I and most people are not interested in your crusade.

Of course not, you are way too busy with your own.

 

[alexa]

I have already answered most of your questions. For the rest time will tell.

Of course not, you are way too busy with your own.

another personal attack. The op gives an indication of the Christian-Jewish people being on a mission, one could if one chose call it a crusade particularly as George Bush introduced the term.

What you appear to be unaware of is that most Europeans no longer follow religion and are not interested in crusades. Indeed the very idea sickens them.

 

[Apocalypse]

another personal attack.

Those were your words to joergan, just applied to you.
I guess that when you're not the one making them it's suddenly a personal attack. Hilarious.

The op gives an indication of the Christian-Jewish people being on a mission

"Mission"? You've been reading another article it seems, the Spanish ex-PM says that some are interested in breaking the Christian-Jewish relationship. That's the meaning in the statement "seek the elimenation of Israel as part of the Christian-Jewish cooperation".

What you appear to be unaware of is that most Europeans no longer follow religion and are not interested in crusades.

What does that has to do with crusades? The word christian comes up to describe Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, and the rest of Israel's 'friends'.

Indeed the very idea sickens them.

It sickens me personally that you believe yourself to be speaking for a larger group of people, even though in the context of your words I have no problem with the opinion you force on them.

 

[CrazyMcCool]

But again what I dont see is what Israel is actually doing for the west? How is fighting Hezbollah and Hamas (who would have nothing against us if it wasnt for Israel) helping us?

fighting groups that attack Israel's citizens, thats the root right of every nation to do. Protect its own CITIZENS cause you know....Thats...what...its..suppose..to..do..

Now for Example. Israel bombed the Iraqi Nuke plant thingy mabob, also Israel has many of the worlds leading techonological thingy mabobs.. enjoy that camera phone/ICQ AIM MSN YIM Ect/Google/intel microchips/ect..
It is also the only working Democracy in the Middle East..Does not have any oil, so no risk of ultra rich governments bribing other governments to have their way all the time.

Actually you are right. We should send all the citizens there to their past homes in Europe. I am sure the people living there now would just about love to give their homes to their past past owners.

Now this is prob my worst responce ever so please dont take it personaly I am kind of sleeping

Tbh in the last 40 years I don't think any other arab nation contributed as much as Israel has/is to the world.

 

[Red_Dave]

fighting groups that attack Israel's citizens, thats the root right of every nation to do. Protect its own CITIZENS cause you know....Thats...what...its..suppose..to..do..

Now for Example. Israel bombed the Iraqi Nuke plant thingy mabob, also Israel has many of the worlds leading techonological thingy mabobs.. enjoy that camera phone/ICQ AIM MSN YIM Ect/Google/intel microchips/ect..
It is also the only working Democracy in the Middle East..Does not have any oil, so no risk of ultra rich governments bribing other governments to have their way all the time.

Actually you are right. We should send all the citizens there to their past homes in Europe. I am sure the people living there now would just about love to give their homes to their past past owners.

Now this is prob my worst responce ever so please dont take it personaly I am kind of sleeping

Tbh in the last 40 years I don't think any other arab nation contributed as much as Israel has/is to the world.

Oh I,ve posted plenty of those but my question was more about what the West gets from this relationship.

 

[donsutherland1]

Let's see:

1. Why are completely foreign nations determining the future of the inhabitants of Palestine? That is a concept that is contradictory to the UN Charter and the Covenant of the League of Nations.
2. The British administered Palestine for over two decades. It was mainly British forces that expelled Ottoman rule. I think they have more of a say than dozens of other nations whose biggest concern from voting in the General Assembly is if they will stay in America's good light.
3. Britian entered into negotiations with the Arabs during World War I. Had it not been for incessant meddling by foreign nations who happened to be on the victor's side, there would most likely have been a much larger Arab state that was more open to the West.

Because the UK delegated the task of determining how to bring sovereignty to its territory to the UN. The UN's Charter does not bar the UN from handling such issues. Clearly, the UK could have made the decision on its own given its authority under the League of Nations Mandate, but it chose to delegate the task. In turn, the UN chose to handle the issue through the General Assembly, not the Security Council.

On the third point, one could similarly argue that had the Arab leadership cooperated with UNSCOP, the territory of the recommended Arab state would have been larger. Had the Arab states not attempted to conquer the newly re-established Israel, a Palestinian state could have been in place and the issue of how to address the needs of Palestinian refugees and their descendants would not have become necessary. Had the UN acted to break Egypt's blockade, the 1967 war would have been avoided and Israel would not be in possession of the West Bank, much less the issue of border changes to bring about "secure" boundaries might not have been relevant. The fact is, decisions/choices/actions have consequences, some of which can be irreversible e.g., the clock cannot be turned back to 1947 with the Arabs being given a fresh chance to gain a state within the boundaries recommended by UNSCOP.

 

[Gardener]

another personal attack.

and here I thought I had already seen the most hypocritical posting of all time.

I guess I hadn't.

 

[jallman]

As unsubstantive and factual useless as "jews have no rights to the land - but everyone else does" or "israel is a failed experiment"? You mean those comments contained some nugget of value?

I never stated "jews have no rights to the land". I stated "jews have no more right to the land than others". Try reading sometime, genius.

 

[jallman]

fighting groups that attack Israel's citizens, thats the root right of every nation to do. Protect its own CITIZENS cause you know....Thats...what...its..suppose..to..do..

It would be one thing if it were just defense of its citizens but to all appearances it is also the subjugation of the Palestinian people, overkill responses against the Palestinian people to the actions of militants, expanding settlements into off limits territory, blocking the Palestinian people from having basic necessities and comforts (come on, the chocolate ban? really?). That's not defense...that's oppression.

Now for Example. Israel bombed the Iraqi Nuke plant thingy mabob,

There goes Israel, bombing again...

also Israel has many of the worlds leading techonological thingy mabobs.. enjoy that camera phone/ICQ AIM MSN YIM Ect/Google/intel microchips/ect..

So does Japan but we don't have too many problems with them.

It is also the only working Democracy in the Middle East..Does not have any oil, so no risk of ultra rich governments bribing other governments to have their way all the time.

Oh goodie...they're slightly less dysfunctional in their dealings with themselves than they are in their dealings with their neighbors. That's so much to be proud of.

Actually you are right. We should send all the citizens there to their past homes in Europe. I am sure the people living there now would just about love to give their homes to their past past owners.

Now this is prob my worst responce ever so please dont take it personaly I am kind of sleeping

Tbh in the last 40 years I don't think any other arab nation contributed as much as Israel has/is to the world.

If you're measuring that standard against death, destruction, turmoil and strife...I imagine Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan might come in a close second behind Israel.

 

[joergan]

Let's see: 1. Why are completely foreign nations determining the future of the inhabitants of Palestine? That is a concept that is contradictory to the UN Charter and the Covenant of the League of Nations.

You're kidding right?

First off, the UK GAVE the Mandate issue to the UN to solve, and please show how the UN - an organization designed from the ground up to resolve international disputes - is disallowed in its charter, a point not supported by even a cursory reading of it, to address them?

2. The British administered Palestine for over two decades. It was mainly British forces that expelled Ottoman rule. I think they have more of a say than dozens of other nations whose biggest concern from voting in the General Assembly is if they will stay in America's good light.

Why do people who have no concept of the history of the region keep offering opinions on it? Its like me joining a boating forum and telling people how sails should be constructed. And again, the British handed this issue to the UN to resolve.

Please explain why you're claiming that only the British would be legitimately able to resolve this issue?

I thought leftists demanded "multi-lateral" solutions to all problems, such as whenever the US gets involved

3. Britian entered into negotiations with the Arabs during World War I. Had it not been for incessant meddling by foreign nations who happened to be on the victor's side, there would most likely have been a much larger Arab state that was more open to the West.

Holy smoke, this is getting more hilarious. It was Britain who is perpetually attacked by most informed people today for arbitrarily writing the borders of the middle east. Now you want to go back to them to do more of the same?

 

[joergan]

I believe the blockadre will be removed. There is now an enormous momentum calling for it's removal. There is going to be increased action until it happens. More flotillas, more peaceful protest, more sanctions and prohibitions on Israeli goods. The blockade will need to end and it will sooner or later.

The pope and mohammed themselves can try sail on a canoe into Gaza, the blockade is not going anywhere until either hamas is eradicated or their ability to procure weapons is eliminated. Only a blockade can accomplish the latter, as I'm sure if israel offers to cease the blockade - but only after a major military assault to remove and liquidate hamas, a process many Gazans would welcome - you and all of the other muslims/jewhaters/leftists, etc., would screech about even more.

I think it is a pity that Israel does not recognise it. The sooner Israel recognises it, the sooner the International Community can also start demanding of Hamas. The longer Israel holds out, the poorer I see her long term situation.

And if israel lifts the blockade, iran and others provide hamas rockets, which it begins firing again in 6 months, what will you say then? Will you admit you made a mistake? Somehow, I doubt it. This would be a grave violation of the israeli government's fundamental responsibility towards providing safety and security for its citizens.

Indeed from the OP it does indeed appear some of you are involved in a crusade. Something I knew nothing about until I started posting on Internet forums and came across people trying to stir up hatred against Muslims.

No need for me to act towards that endeavor, muslims are doing a superb job all by themselves...

I and most people are not interested in your crusade.[/QUOTE]

 

[jallman]

No need for me to act towards that endeavor, muslims are doing a superb job all by themselves...

Oh so this is more about your hatred of Muslims than it is about support of Israel. Doesn't take long for those anti-Muslim, "towel head" hating types to show their true form, does it?

See what I just did there? :lol:

 

[joergan]

On the third point, one could similarly argue that had the Arab leadership cooperated with UNSCOP, the territory of the recommended Arab state would have been larger. Had the Arab states not attempted to conquer the newly re-established Israel, a Palestinian state could have been in place and the issue of how to address the needs of Palestinian refugees and their descendants would not have become necessary. Had the UN acted to break Egypt's blockade, the 1967 war would have been avoided and Israel would not be in possession of the West Bank, much less the issue of border changes to bring about "secure" boundaries might not have been relevant. The fact is, decisions/choices/actions have consequences, some of which can be irreversible e.g., the clock cannot be turned back to 1947 with the Arabs being given a fresh chance to gain a state within the boundaries recommended by UNSCOP.

This is a superb and accurate composition of the facts. But don't you know Don, when there is a dispute arab muslims are allowed to use war, violence and terrorism - but everyone else has to use "multilateral" means, go through the UN, diplomacy, negotiations, etc.

Also, when the arab muslims lose wars they start, there is a huge "do-over" button in the center of the middle east that allows them to bring everything back to the starting point. But since the button is on arab soil, no one else is allowed to push it...

 

[joergan]

I never stated "jews have no rights to the land". I stated "jews have no more right to the land than others". Try reading sometime, genius.

Another personal insult, I guess the heat on the jewhaters is getting intense...which must be making you forget your prior posts, so let me help show where you said exactly that:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...oes-down-we-all-go-down-3.html#post1058810233

"It was finagled by manipulating international law toward the express purpose of handing over land that was already spoken for to a people who neither deserved nor earned it."

This means you are claiming that even though they were living there longer than anyone else - they still had less rights than other people. Try remembering next time, genius.

QFD.

 

[jallman]

Another personal insult, I guess the heat on the jewhaters is getting intense...which must be making you forget your prior posts, so let me help show where you said exactly that:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...oes-down-we-all-go-down-3.html#post1058810233

"It was finagled by manipulating international law toward the express purpose of handing over land that was already spoken for to a people who neither deserved nor earned it."

This means you are claiming that even though they were living there longer than anyone else - they still had less rights than other people. Try remembering next time, genius.

QFD.

Neither "deserved nor earned it" does not equate to "had no rights at all". Try reading next time, genius.

And ohhhh...personal attack. Guess the heat of the Muslim haters is getting flaring a little too hot. :roll:

 

[joergan]

Oh so this is more about your hatred of Muslims than it is about support of Israel. Doesn't take long for those anti-Muslim, "towel head" hating types to show their true form, does it?

I see muslims trying to blow NYC up, but strangely, I do not see Native Americans doing so. So according to the leftist rule book, I guess I should be focused on targeting the Sioux... ;(

 

[jallman]

I see muslims trying to blow NYC up, but strangely, I do not see Native Americans doing so. So according to the leftist rule book, I guess I should be focused on targeting the Sioux... ;(

WTF are you talking about? Drunk posting rarely ever makes sense. Especially at this time of the morning. :shrug:

 

[joergan]

Neither "deserved nor earned it" does not equate to "had no rights at all".

READ YOUR OWN STATEMENT, superstar. It says "NEITHER deserved...", therefore, you claimed that they did NOT have any right to the land. first I need to remind you of what YOU wrote, THEN I need to explain it to you. How much handholding do you expect on this forum?

If you had said they had "LESS" right to the land, THEN you might have more of an argument in your claim - though it would not be any more accurate from an historical perspective - but you did not. You said they had no right to it, so don't blame me for your statements biting you later on. Too bad.

 

[jallman]

READ YOUR OWN STATEMENT, superstar.

Don't need to read it again. I'm the one that wrote it, sparky. You've gone from idiotic ranting to creating semantic arguments that don't exist in an effort to keep your angsty rage going.

Eventually you will burn yourself out. I just like throwing the fuel on you to help speed it along.

 

[joergan]

WTF are you talking about? Drunk posting rarely ever makes sense. Especially at this time of the morning. :shrug:

Are you mentally ill? The other poster asked why are there so many Westerners who dislike muslim culture, and it is their endless violence and terrorism that is concerning people in the West, some of which has been experienced first hand. If you'd tone down the internet teen rage, and think while reading, you'd better understand what other posters are writing.

 

[jallman]

Are you mentally ill?

That was actually my question to you...being that you were throwing up crazy talk about Souix indians in a thread about Israeli atrocities against their neighbors.

 

[joergan]

Don't need to read it again. I'm the one that wrote it, sparky. You've gone from idiotic ranting to creating semantic arguments that don't exist in an effort to keep your angsty rage going.

Your choice of language was clear, they had no rights to the land. You can squirm or whine or keep up the personal attacks, but the post is there for all to see, its now part of the historical record of this forum - and you can do nothing to change it.

Everything else you try to claim only makes you look that much sillier trying to twist what was an obvious statement. But you keep trying, its like watching kids with ants and a magnifying glass...

 

[jallman]

Your choice of language was clear, ...

I know. Which leaves me questioning what your malfunction is in understanding it. :shrug:

 

[PeteEU]

LOL Aznar? he is a laughing stock in Spain.. no one should take him seriously on anything. Even his own party tries everything to distance themselves from him. His political fate was sealed when he accused ETA of the Madrid bombings and should not be taken seriously at all.