Ex-FBI lawyer to plead guilty in first criminal case arising from review, sources say

[TheDoctorWasIn]

Well, no. The investigators don't commit process crimes. A process crime is committed by a suspect in the process of investigating, and is usually not pursued if they are found to be innocent of the underlying crime. In the case of Flynn he wasn't just innocent, there was no underlying crime to be guilty of.

An investigator who lies to the court in order to get a warrant is just committing a plain old crime. If he then lies to the DOJ to avoid prosecution he would be committing a process crime to cover up for the crime he is being investigated for.

None of this is correct.

 

[Mr Person]

Well, no. The investigators don't commit process crimes. A process crime is committed by a suspect in the process of investigating, and is usually not pursued if they are found to be innocent of the underlying crime. In the case of Flynn he wasn't just innocent, there was no underlying crime to be guilty of.

An investigator who lies to the court in order to get a warrant is just committing a plain old crime. If he then lies to the DOJ to avoid prosecution he would be committing a process crime to cover up for the crime he is being investigated for.

Borrowed from discussions of obstruction re: Trump himself, but still relevant. A little reminder on how broad something like federal obstruction of justice is:

The person doing the obstructing need not have committed a crime and neither does someone they may have been trying to protect from prosecution; indeed, the obstructor need not have intended to protect anyone from prosecution. The person doing the obstruction need not have succeeded in impeding the investigation and need not be its target.


United States v. Durham, 432 Fed. Appx. 88 (2013)

United States v. Rickie Durham – CourtListener.com

3rd Circuit vase. Police officer has a sister of a childhood friend, and this sister is dating a bad dude being investigated by the feds. Officer contacts the childhood friend to warn of coming raids and that if the boyfriend goes down so does the childhood friend's sister. The bad boyfriend also learned of this and instructed various co-conspirators.

Part of holding: That the officer's intent was simply to protect his childhood friend's sister - a person who committed no crime - but not to actually obstruct the investigation into the bad boyfriend does NOT mean he could not be convicted of obstruction of justice. As usual, they cite black latter law as part of the decision:

To prove obstruction under 18 U.S.C. § 1505, the Government must establish: "(1) that there was an agency proceeding; (2) that the defendant was aware of that proceeding; and (3) that the defendant intentionally endeavored corruptly to influence, obstruct or impede the pending proceeding." United States v. Warshak, 631 F.3d 266, 325 (6th Cir. 2010) *[**9]*(quoting United States v. Bhagat, 436 F.3d 1140, 1147 (9th Cir. 2006)); see also United States v. Quattrone, 441 F.3d 153, 174 (2d Cir. 2006).
​

In other words, the person convicted of that particular federal "process crime" was not even being investigated AND was not trying to protect the person who was being investigated. They still went after him. Lie and mislead the police, chances are you are going down, and nothing about whether or not you are guilty of some other crime or even being investigated for it will matter.

I don't think he lied. I think he was told that the interview was about campaign issues related to Russia and that the Kislyak questions were completely tangential so he just glossed over the conversation. Remember, he had INTENTIONALLY been denied knowledge of the intent and purpose of the discussion and INTENTIONALLY denied knowledge that HE was the one under investigation.

The police always lie to suspects to get them to incriminate themselves. Always. "Your DNA was found at the scene" when it wasn't. Etc. It's one of the top interview techniques.

 

[SLC]

Oh!!!! Bill Barr? The trump toadie who mis-characterized the Mueller report as an exoneration of trump??

Well, Whoo hoo! Why didn't ya say so? :roll:

He means the man that holds the office of Attorney General and deserves your respect.

 

[SLC]

Many more former FEC commissioner's have disagreed with your appeal to authority.

He's allowed to have his opinion, but that doesn't make it reality.

Many? Who? And do they teach FEC law. And why haven't they charged Trump with the same FEC violations?

Hans von Spakovsky was on the commission and says many of other commissioners agree that Cohen was not guilty of FEC violations.Former Election Commissioner: Cohen and Trump Didn’t Violate Campaign Finance Law | The Heritage Foundation

Many campaign finance law experts and fellow former commissioners of the Federal Election Commission agree with me that Cohen’s did not commit an actual violation of federal law.]

Bradley Smith the FEC Chairman from 2000-2005 and law school professor agrees that Cohen did not violate the FEC laws.

 

[Cardinal]

He means the man that holds the office of Attorney General and deserves your respect.

Barr was surfing in on the respect of the office as it was established before him. If you behave in ways that directly undermine the reasons why that office commanded respect in the first place, you can't expect to demand respect yourself.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Ever check the news? Nobody has incriminated Trump. The FBI lawyer committed a crime. Your hatred of Trump does not give him a free pass.

I can't wait for the criminals who wiped their emails to obstruct Mueller's searches for justice to be prosecuted.

 

[post]

Both Stone and Flynn talked to prosecutors they just refused to lie to them. Flynn hasn't been convicted...yet BTW.. Clinton sure pardoned a few of his Whitewater bubbies who did not roll over on him.

Susan McDougal: Clinton political supporter (multiple frauds). Bill Clinton pardoned.

Chris Wade: Whitewater real estate broker (multiple loan fraud). Bill Clinton pardoned.

Robert W. Palmer: Madison appraiser (conspiracy). Bill Clinton pardoned.

75degrees :doh I hate you. If it gets any hotter here Hell will seem like a cold snap.

Conviction - A conviction means that you have been found guilty of a crime by a court or that you have agreed to plead guilty to a crime. ... If you are found guilty of, or plead guilty to, any level of crime, you are generally considered to have a conviction.

answering questions from employers about criminal records or ...
file:///C:/Users/aaddg/AppData/Local/Temp/answeringcrquestions.pdf

KINDLY post examples of Trump pardons or commutations that were reviewed in advance through the DOJ Pardons Office.

One-third of Clinton pardons skirted review - Chicago Tribune
By By Richard A. Serrano and Stephen Braun
Times Staff Writers |
Feb 08, 2001 at 10:22 AM
A third of those granted last-minute pardons or commutations by President Clinton last month skirted the normal Justice Department review process and instead appealed directly to the White House in the waning days of his presidency.

[/QUOTE]

Barr was Cinton's teacher. Barr "fashioned" this, after Clinton beat Batt's master, in late 1992. The republicans in congress held committee hearings on the Clinton pardons in early 2001, after Bush's brother and the Reagan-Bush SCOTUS majority "delivered" the presidency to Bush's son!

THE PARDONS; BUSH PARDONS 6 IN IRAN AFFAIR, ABORTING A WEINBERGER TRIAL; PROSECUTOR ASSAILS '''COVER-UP''' - The New York Times
THE PARDONS; BUSH PARDONS 6 IN IRAN AFFAIR ...
Page Not Found › pardons-bush-pardons-6-iran-affair-a...
Dec 25, 1992 - December 25, 1992, Section A, Page 1Buy Reprints ... Bush consulted with Attorney General William P. Barr and Brent Scowcroft, the national ...

Essay; A Tale Of Three Counsels - The New York Times
Opinion | Essay; A Tale Of Three Counsels - The New York Times
Dec 28, 1992 - December 28, 1992, Section A, Page 15Buy ... 3. William Barr, the 42-year-old Attorney General, became acquainted with Mr. Bush in his 20's, when he served as one of his aides in the C.I.A.; he was then taken under Boyden Gray's wing and owes his current lofty position to Gray's sponsorship. A loyal order-follower, Barr makes no major decision without a nod or wink from his mentor.

William Barr's State of Emergency - The New York Times
William Barr’s State of Emergency - The New York Times
Jun 1, 2020 - What Trump gives Bill Barr is a canvas upon which to paint. ... As attorney general in 1992, Barr signed off on a mass-surveillance program ... At the end of Bush's presidency, he successfully pushed for a pardon of six Iran-contra defendants. ... On Dec. 5, 2018, Barr attended George H.W. Bush's funeral.

 

[Mr Person]

Both Stone and Flynn talked to prosecutors they just refused to lie to them. Flynn hasn't been convicted.. <snip>

Yes, he has. A guilty plea is a conviction.

However, it is not "final" because the litigation around his motion to withdraw guilty plea and the DOJ's unprecedented motion to dismiss charges in these circumstances has not been resolved. (In layman's terms).

 

[mrdeltoid]

Does anyone really believe this is worth a thread? This is slow walked, piece of "impeached president theater" in direct violation of the DOJ policy limiting partisan interference, beginning 90 days before an election.

The OLC, Office of Legal Counsel, is an office inside the DOJ. The OLC influenced a DOJ policy avoiding indictment od a sitting POTUS.

James Comey also violated the 90 days prior to an election, "no interference" policy. Can you imagine the outrage, if Mueller had gone against DOJ policy and indicted Trump.

One of two things is imbedded in the POV and conduct of Trump party supporters. Cluelessness or mendacious hypocrisy!

This is not news, today, it is a deliberately timed, violation of DOJ policy, timed to attempt to influence the election, 84 days from now!

Yes, lying to the FISA court, to get a warrant to spy on an American citizen, and smear him in the press, for political purposes, IS worthy of a thread. I hope you are being sarcastic. If the feds can break the law and spy on high profile citizens like Flynn, Page and the POTUS, they wouldn't think twice about nailing you or I. It's chilling.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

Many? Who? And do they teach FEC law. And why haven't they charged Trump with the same FEC violations?

Trevor Potter

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...-didnt-commit-crimes-hes-wrong/?noredirect=on

Ann Ravel

Why Michael Cohen’s Campaign Law Violations Are Crimes – MapLight

There's two for starters.

 

[SLC]

Barr was surfing in on the respect of the office as it was established before him. If you behave in ways that directly undermine the reasons why that office commanded respect in the first place, you can't expect to demand respect yourself.

Well well well I'm surprised you would show your face on a day that the first Durham investigation indictment went public. You lost your bet to me and I fully expect you to welsh on it. :lamo

 

[Cardinal]

1072454756[/URL]]Well well well I'm surprised you would show your face on a day that the first Durham investigation indictment went public. You lost your bet to me and I fully expect you to welsh on it. :lamo

What was the bet? Also a little odd to see you crowing about this since this “revelation” is a regurgitation of the IG report from last year. Nothing new has come out.

 

[lurchadams]

Both Stone and Flynn talked to prosecutors they just refused to lie to them. Flynn hasn't been convicted...yet BTW.. Clinton sure pardoned a few of his Whitewater bubbies who did not roll over on him.

Susan McDougal: Clinton political supporter (multiple frauds). Bill Clinton pardoned.

Chris Wade: Whitewater real estate broker (multiple loan fraud). Bill Clinton pardoned.

Robert W. Palmer: Madison appraiser (conspiracy). Bill Clinton pardoned.

75degrees :doh I hate you. If it gets any hotter here Hell will seem like a cold snap.

Oh, so you had to go back to Bill Clinton to find something similar. I asked about Obama, not Clinton - I wasn't a real fan of Clinton's pardon's either - the difference with Clinton is that he didn't use his position to reward people for staying silent, like our current cartoon mobster president!

It's actually supposed to be over 90 on Sunday, so we'll be close to what you're dealing with there!

 

[lurchadams]

He means the man that holds the office of Attorney General and deserves your respect.

Well, regarding this attorney general I'm afraid I cannot comply. He's the closest thing to a "fixer" that I've ever seen in my years of paying attention to politics. Jim Baker to Reagan was a close second.

 

[post]

Yes, lying to the FISA court, to get a warrant to spy on an American citizen, and smear him in the press, for political purposes, IS worthy of a thread. I hope you are being sarcastic. If the feds can break the law and spy on high profile citizens like Flynn, Page and the POTUS, they wouldn't think twice about nailing you or I. It's chilling.

I hope you are being obtuse...

Chillng? What is chilling is the methodology that results in your outrage, which, unfortunately for you, seems genuine.

DOJ's Accounting of Its FISA Errors ... - emptywheel.net
DOJ's]Sabrina de Sousa and the Drone Memo | emptywheel Accounting of Its FISA Errors Cannot Be Compared to the Carter Page Report | emptywheel[/url]
Many people are suggesting that the results of DOJ's review of 29 FISA applications in which DOJ IG found a bunch of errors shows that Carter Page's application was exceptionally bad. On the contrary, it only shows that Bill Barr's DOJ applies different rules to measure the Russian investigation than it has other investigations.

The Carter Page Clauses in the FISA Reform Bill Wouldn't ...
The Carter Page Clauses in the FISA Reform Bill Wouldn't Help Carter Page | emptywheel
The new FISA bill has some good aspects to it. But measures that might be designed to help someone in the position of Carter Page probably wouldn't have helped Carter Page in 2016.

Pursue a POV adjustment. You have no idea of the abuse republican lead DOJ and FBI have heaped on hundreds of subjects of interest, and you are pontificating well beyond the limits of your knowledgr, which appeaes to be right off the script the White House writes for Hannity and other Murdoch entertainers shows.

Trump Adds Roger Stone to His List of Pardons and Commutations - The New York Times
Trump Adds Roger Stone to His List of Pardons and Commutations

The president’s decision to commute Mr. Stone’s sentence continues a pattern of his presidency: granting clemency to friends whose cases resonate with him personally.
....Mr. Milken did not have a pardon or commutation application pending at the Justice Department’s pardons office, meaning that the president made that decision entirely without official department input. Among those arguing for Mr. Milken to be pardoned were Mr. Giuliani, who as the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York prosecuted Mr. Milken.

Trump campaign folk vehemently maintained that Carter Page was not part of the campaign, but now, he is a martyr to be drowned in Trump-Cult, crocodile tears?

Is Judge Sullivan stupid, or duped by an imaginary "deep state"?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...9ae816-f4dd-11e9-a285-882a8e386a96_story.html
Michael Flynn’s sentencing set for Jan. 28 after judge rejects his attacks on FBI, Justice Department

 

[SLC]

What was the bet? Also a little odd to see you crowing about this since this “revelation” is a regurgitation of the IG report from last year. Nothing new has come out.

The IG indicted him ? I must have missed that. Our bet that you are welshing on was about whether Durham would indict anyone. Personally I think this is just the first person to be indicted.

 

[SLC]

Well, regarding this attorney general I'm afraid I cannot comply. He's the closest thing to a "fixer" that I've ever seen in my years of paying attention to politics. Jim Baker to Reagan was a close second.

You weren't watching Obama's AGs. What did you think about Lynch visiting with Bill Clinton on the tarmac while the DOJ was investigating Hillary. Do you think her investigation was handled above the board? BTW If you send a cool breeze this way I'll send you some...HOT AIR

 

[Cardinal]

The IG indicted him ? I must have missed that. Our bet that you are welshing on was about whether Durham would indict anyone. Personally I think this is just the first person to be indicted.

We already knew a year ago from the IG report that an ex-FBI lawyer was a bad boy for fudging an email. So nothing new and hardly evidence of some grand anti-trump conspiracy.

Calling me a welsher is a very serious accusation. Can you link to this bet?

 

[SLC]

Trevor Potter

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...-didnt-commit-crimes-hes-wrong/?noredirect=on

Ann Ravel

Why Michael Cohen’s Campaign Law Violations Are Crimes – MapLight

There's two for starters.

So Potter served a year 35 years ago and Ravel served 4 years. Has either one of them stayed up to date on FEC law by teaching it?

 

[SLC]

We already knew a year ago from the IG report that an ex-FBI lawyer was a bad boy for fudging an email. So nothing new and hardly evidence of some grand anti-trump conspiracy.

Calling me a welsher is a very serious accusation. Can you link to this bet?

Look at my sig

You made your bet with me in this thread starts around post #26

https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...-s-russia-investigation-3.html#post1070975508

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

So Potter served a year 35 years ago and Ravel served 4 years. Has either one of them stayed up to date on FEC law by teaching it?

There is no such thing as "FEC law". If you mean Election Law, it doesn't change very often. You can count the significant "changes" over the last 50 years on one hand.

 

[TomFitz]

According to mueller there was not a conspiracy.
sorry you lose.

The only people caught conspiring with russian operatives was the DNC and clinton campaigns.

That is not true.

According to Mueller, they did not find evidence of a conspiracy. Collusion is not a chargeable offense.

You’ve retreated to that argument, dancing past a long list of well documented facts.

And no one in the Clinton campaign has been identified as working with the Russians at all, other than Steele mining his old contacts for opponant research.

There is no indication that the Clinton campaign coordinated their activities with the FSB, as you try to claim. The evidence that the Trump team did is overwhelming.

Donald Trump spent the last four yers building his brand. His incompetence, his lack of character, and his arrogant recklessness has defined him as the deplorable’s deplorable.

Most Americans are shamed of Donald Trump. And we should be.

 

[bongsaway]

Durham probe: Ex-FBI lawyer to plead guilty in first criminal case arising from review, sources say | Fox News



For those who haven't been paying attention, Carter Page was a source for the CIA prior to his being an advisor on the Trump campaign. Clinesmith falsified a document which said that Page was a CIA source to say that Page WAS NOT a CIA source. This is a huge deal because it shows deliberate attempt to commit fraud on the court.

Does anyone really believe that he did this on his own and was not acting on behalf of others? I don't.

Hillary, obama, the fbi, cia, and all the other deep state actors were all involved. I'm expecting a caravan of convictions.

 

[SLC]

There is no such thing as "FEC law". If you mean Election Law, it doesn't change very often. You can count the significant "changes" over the last 50 years on one hand.

Proof? 35 years is a long time to remember a commission you served on for only one year.:lamo

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Of course somebody with authority told him to do that. He was an operational contact for the CIA for years. It was obvious that Obama, Comey, Biden, Brennan, Clapper and McCabe felt there was no way Trump would win, and this was just another way to keep the "Russia Russia Russia" narrative going. There's no way this, and all the "errors" Horwitz put into his report, could've happened without the "leadership" being involved.

Yep. They all assumed that Hillary was going to win and everything would be swept under the rug