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EV's (electric vehicles) aren't the best idea right now.

beefheart

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LOL! Brother if you only knew LOL. I could write a check for a new house with a new water heater any time I want LOL. But what am I talking to you for, you wouldn't understand the rules of having the "man card". Heck, I don't need to replace many water heaters, because I maintain my own... some of us find that fun.... you know the things are fathers, and grandfathers taught us how to do.

But you go ahead and call Home Depot and have El Dorko come out fix your broken door knob...LOL



The world where I own several rental properties. Yeah, I don't actually install new roofs anymore, but knowing how it's done means I know who to hire, and how much it costs. Although I did build my wife a nice little "she shed" last year. I think she really likes the fact I build it for her.... very romantic.



You mean into your Prius LOL!

I don't know what brand of mattress we have, my wife handles all that girlie stuff, like drapes, towels, and such.



NO, you mean Joe Biden supporting middle East oil. We were well along energy independence here in North America, especially under Trump, but your dufus Biden will have us back in the Middle East fighting wars again to secure that oil that the rest of our trading partners need. Yeah, really dumb.



Haha! You wish. You're funny, and Priuses are "cute".
What is it like being so terrified and threatened about your manhood all the time? I can fix things, but I don't need to invest in a truck for god's sake.

Thanks for living down to the stereotype.
 

snakestretcher

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But you sort of did when you said the " The IC motor is obsolescent 19th century technology "
perhaps it is only the way we produce the hydrocarbon fuel that is obsolete.
Consider the Tesla 85 Kwh battery weighs 1,200 lbs.
Gasoline, even at 20% Carnot efficiency, would weigh 73 lbs.
Well, battery technology is still evolving and there is a way to go yet before both weight and range are considered acceptable for the majority of users. Let's not forget how the IC motor itself evolved from Gottlieb Daimler's first attempts over a century ago, patented 1885, to today's examples capable of propelling vehicles at high speed and over long distances.
Electric vehicles are our immediate future, if the will, the technology and resources are in sync with each other. Other forms of sustainable energy production will surely follow in due course.
 

The Old Soul

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Do you really think the internal combustion heat engine is obsolete?
I think for certain applications, like passenger jets, it will be around for quite a while.
In addition, there are other ways to process hydrocarbon fuels into energy, that do not require IC engines.
It really still comes back to energy density.

Energy density
Gasoline 12,888.9 W-h/kg
Lithium-ion battery 100 - 243.06 W-h/kg
Then there is this - efficiency:
"Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.” An electric motor typically is between 85% and 90% efficient. That means it converts that percentage of the electricity provided to it into useful work.Mar 10, 2018"
Electric Car Myth Buster — Efficiency - CleanTechnica
https://cleantechnica.com › 2018/03/10 › electric-car-myt...


CO2 is a negative byproduct of the ICE; so is heat. 80% or the wasted energy burning gasoline is heat. eV? Not so much.
 

longview

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Then there is this - efficiency:
"Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.” An electric motor typically is between 85% and 90% efficient. That means it converts that percentage of the electricity provided to it into useful work.Mar 10, 2018"
Electric Car Myth Buster — Efficiency - CleanTechnica
https://cleantechnica.com › 2018/03/10 › electric-car-myt...


CO2 is a negative byproduct of the ICE; so is heat. 80% or the wasted energy burning gasoline is heat. eV? Not so much.
So 20% of 12,888.9 W-h/kg is 2,557.8 W-h/kg
and 90% of 243.06 W-h/kg is 218.75 W-h/kg
In addition the amount of CO2 from the battery electric vehicle, is dependent on the source of the electricity.
 

iguanaman

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Typical smug liberal elitism. You would rather put the nation into economic ruin, than allow people to have the cheaper more efficient mode of transportation. You would put poor working families on buses and bicycles, while you yoga pants wearing San Francisco liberals have your silly electric golf carts.

We already know you are going after natural gas and propane too. You think windmills are going to heat homes and power stove tops across the entire country. You will put restaurants out of business to play your stupid tree hugging games.

Yep, keep it up, and there will be a backlash you can't even imagine.
You are in denial. We will improve our quality of life by adopting alternate energy sources. Change is good and inevitable. Embrace it or fall behind.. The internal combustion engine is a dinosaur that wastes most of its energy as heat. We can no longer be so wasteful now that we need to make our own energy and stop digging it out of the ground.
 

The Old Soul

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So 20% of 12,888.9 W-h/kg is 2,557.8 W-h/kg
and 90% of 243.06 W-h/kg is 218.75 W-h/kg
In addition the amount of CO2 from the battery electric vehicle, is dependent on the source of the electricity.
Good argument for solar, wind, and hydro. Enough solar energy alone hits the planet every day to power everything on earth for years; technology is working on it, and will succeed. Eventually vehicles will be self sustaining with self-charging solar panels/finishes mounted on-board.
 

craig

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But you sort of did when you said the " The IC motor is obsolescent 19th century technology "
perhaps it is only the way we produce the hydrocarbon fuel that is obsolete.
Consider the Tesla 85 Kwh battery weighs 1,200 lbs.
Gasoline, even at 20% Carnot efficiency, would weigh 73 lbs.
That 1200 lbs. is there for the life of the car, then it is recycled into a new car. The 73 lbs. goes some where else every week.
 

Court Jester

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What is it like being so terrified and threatened about your manhood all the time? I can fix things, but I don't need to invest in a truck for god's sake.

Thanks for living down to the stereotype.
Hey, to each their own. I don't feel terrified or threatened by men like you, WE just get a chuckle out of the type. You like your Prius with your bike rack---- great! We like our GAS and DIESEL powered trucks with our gun racks and boat trailers. You call a truck an investment, but to most of the normal men in this country, they are just another tool among a wide array of tools which men use doing the things men dot have available. If in your part of town a Prius is enough, the we get that. I have niece who goes to college who has one, and she uses it to go to school and then to her job at the bookstore after class; it fulfills all of her needs.

You like to rent a truck when you need one, then great. I suppose some people would have to rent a ladder too if they didn't have one. Whatever bro!


 

longview

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Good argument for solar, wind, and hydro. Enough solar energy alone hits the planet every day to power everything on earth for years; technology is working on it, and will succeed. Eventually vehicles will be self sustaining with self-charging solar panels/finishes mounted on-board.
To get from here to there, we need massive energy storage, to cover the times when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing.
We see how nature stores energy, hydrocarbons, it evolved that energy storage methodology over millions of years,
it should be the first place we look for energy storage, as it is compatible, with almost all existing demand and infrastructure.
Also man made hydrocarbon fuels, can be carbon neutral, in that they do not emit any new CO2.
This is not some pie in the sky idea, the first plant is under construction.
Europe’s first power-to-liquid demo plant in Norway plans renewable aviation fuel production in 2023
Basically we are waiting on the price of oil to increase to the point where the refineries will see greater profit,
making their own feedstock, as opposed to buying oil. (~$75 to $95 a barrel).
 

Court Jester

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You are in denial. We will improve our quality of life by adopting alternate energy sources. Change is good and inevitable. Embrace it or fall behind.. The internal combustion engine is a dinosaur that wastes most of its energy as heat. We can no longer be so wasteful now that we need to make our own energy and stop digging it out of the ground.
LOL! Yeah, meanwhile most of the people in China and India are driving around in two stroke gas engines and will continue to do so.

Meanwhile, here is how to charge your electric toy car in an emergency LOL

 

iguanaman

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To get from here to there, we need massive energy storage, to cover the times when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing.
We see how nature stores energy, hydrocarbons, it evolved that energy storage methodology over millions of years,
it should be the first place we look for energy storage, as it is compatible, with almost all existing demand and infrastructure.
Also man made hydrocarbon fuels, can be carbon neutral, in that they do not emit any new CO2.
This is not some pie in the sky idea, the first plant is under construction.
Europe’s first power-to-liquid demo plant in Norway plans renewable aviation fuel production in 2023
Basically we are waiting on the price of oil to increase to the point where the refineries will see greater profit,
making their own feedstock, as opposed to buying oil. (~$75 to $95 a barrel).
Throwing away 80% of the energy when we need to make it ourselves will never fly. Without the free energy stored in the earth the IC engine is history. Using hydrogen fuel cells to power electric motors is 10 times more efficient when longer ranges than batteries are needed.


Earlier this month, Toyota announced a deal with truck maker Hino to jointly develop hydrogen fuel cell trucks for the North American market. The trucks will get the Toyota Mirai’s hydrogen fuel cell technology and Hino’s vehicle body, with plans to deliver a “demonstration vehicle” in the first half of 2021. That deal comes after Toyota in 2019 announced a separate collaboration with Kenworth Truck to develop heavy-duty hydrogen trucks for North America.

“We’re at that tipping point,” said Andrew Lund, chief engineer of heavy-duty trucks for Toyota. “The technology has proven to be available.”


 

beefheart

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Hey, to each their own. I don't feel terrified or threatened by men like you, WE just get a chuckle out of the type. You like your Prius with your bike rack---- great! We like our GAS and DIESEL powered trucks with our gun racks and boat trailers. You call a truck an investment, but to most of the normal men in this country, they are just another tool among a wide array of tools which men use doing the things men dot have available. If in your part of town a Prius is enough, the we get that. I have niece who goes to college who has one, and she uses it to go to school and then to her job at the bookstore after class; it fulfills all of her needs.

You like to rent a truck when you need one, then great. I suppose some people would have to rent a ladder too if they didn't have one. Whatever bro!
You should look up the word "Projection" in a mental health journal.

Seems like you are hiding something. But, prance around in your truck if that is what you need to convince yourself that you are masculine..

And I have a ladder, using it this week to paint the side of my house before it gets too hot.
 

longview

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That 1200 lbs. is there for the life of the car, then it is recycled into a new car. The 73 lbs. goes some where else every week.
But you have to tote around the battery even if it has a minimal charge, the weight of the fuel decreases as it is used up.
 

longview

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Throwing away 80% of the energy when we need to make it ourselves will never fly. Without the free energy stored in the earth the IC engine is history. Using hydrogen fuel cells to power electric motors is 10 times more efficient when longer ranges than batteries are needed.


Earlier this month, Toyota announced a deal with truck maker Hino to jointly develop hydrogen fuel cell trucks for the North American market. The trucks will get the Toyota Mirai’s hydrogen fuel cell technology and Hino’s vehicle body, with plans to deliver a “demonstration vehicle” in the first half of 2021. That deal comes after Toyota in 2019 announced a separate collaboration with Kenworth Truck to develop heavy-duty hydrogen trucks for North America.

“We’re at that tipping point,” said Andrew Lund, chief engineer of heavy-duty trucks for Toyota. “The technology has proven to be available.”


It still comes down to energy density, I like the fuel cell truck, at least that is more practical than the Semi with a 250 mile battery.
Also while Toyota is looking at direct hydrogen storage, it is not necessarily a requirement, as hydrogen can easily be stripped off of any hydrocarbon
fuel, the advantage being the way the fuel is carried.
I think Toyota Mirai carries about 4 kg of hydrogen, which could be carried in 28 kg of gasoline, or about 8 gallons.
 

The Old Soul

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To get from here to there, we need massive energy storage, to cover the times when the sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing.
We see how nature stores energy, hydrocarbons, it evolved that energy storage methodology over millions of years,
it should be the first place we look for energy storage, as it is compatible, with almost all existing demand and infrastructure.
Also man made hydrocarbon fuels, can be carbon neutral, in that they do not emit any new CO2.
This is not some pie in the sky idea, the first plant is under construction.
Europe’s first power-to-liquid demo plant in Norway plans renewable aviation fuel production in 2023
Basically we are waiting on the price of oil to increase to the point where the refineries will see greater profit,
making their own feedstock, as opposed to buying oil. (~$75 to $95 a barrel).
Many issues that are applicable today, but will be dealt with in the future. Another issue is simplicity - eVehicles use little or no oil for lubrication, and the emotors have basic 3 moving parts - the armature, and the 2 sets of bearings that support it. Electric motors are cheap, and extremely reliable. Consider how many electric motors are in your house that outlast the products they power, like garbage disposals, can openers, furnaces, and even the cooling fan in computer I'm typing on. How many parts are in an ICE? Hundreds if not thousands - just look at any exploded diagram of both - simplicity equates to manufacturing costs and energy usage, ongoing maintenance, and ease of repair.
 

craig

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But you have to tote around the battery even if it has a minimal charge, the weight of the fuel decreases as it is used up.
Electric cars are about the same weight but battery will soon be incorporated as part of the structure of the car making it much lighter. No engine, radiator, transmission and so many other parts. Battery technology is advancing at a rate similar to Moore's Law.
 

gino

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Anyone who is pushing for a large-scale change to electric vehicles isn't too good at science or math. If we change over to electric cars, how are we going to charge them? We don't have enough power generation capacity in the US to charge all those cars each night. And the only truly cost effective way to generate electricity is to burn coal or natural gas. "Green Energy" isn't cheap enough to actually work. Most of the US can't do hydropower from dams. Solar cells and wind power are actually too expensive to be a primary source of electricity.

A few years ago, the true environmentalist scientists had decided that the only way to generate electricity and not pollute was to turn to nuclear power. Unfortunately, then we had the Fukushima accident and that scared everyone away from promoting nuclear power.
 

longview

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Many issues that are applicable today, but will be dealt with in the future. Another issue is simplicity - eVehicles use little or no oil for lubrication, and the emotors have basic 3 moving parts - the armature, and the 2 sets of bearings that support it. Electric motors are cheap, and extremely reliable. Consider how many electric motors are in your house that outlast the products they power, like garbage disposals, can openers, furnaces, and even the cooling fan in computer I'm typing on. How many parts are in an ICE? Hundreds if not thousands - just look at any exploded diagram of both - simplicity equates to manufacturing costs and energy usage, ongoing maintenance, and ease of repair.
I am not contesting that electric motors are much better in almost every category,
but rather pointing out that the way the energy is carried in batteries is deficient.
Ultimately I would expect to see some better way of carrying hydrogen and the electricity coming from a fuel cell.
Hydrogen pasts. looks very promising, as it has a better energy density than gasoline,
that combined with fuel cell efficiency of ~65%, means that each unit of mass would have about 3 times the energy of each unit of
gasoline burned in a heat engine, and about 30 time the energy in each mass unit of battery.
 

longview

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Electric cars are about the same weight but battery will soon be incorporated as part of the structure of the car making it much lighter. No engine, radiator, transmission and so many other parts. Battery technology is advancing at a rate similar to Moore's Law.
It is true that a battery electric does not need the Motor, Transmission, Gas Tank, ect, but that poor energy density eats into saved weight a lot.
I do not really think battery technology is moving as fast as semiconductor technology,
a lithium ion battery is perhaps 5 times denser than the century old lead acid battery, but has not seen any real improvements in 5 years or so.
I know they have high hopes, but at this point they are hopes not reality.
 

craig

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It is true that a battery electric does not need the Motor, Transmission, Gas Tank, ect, but that poor energy density eats into saved weight a lot.
I do not really think battery technology is moving as fast as semiconductor technology,
a lithium ion battery is perhaps 5 times denser than the century old lead acid battery, but has not seen any real improvements in 5 years or so.
I know they have high hopes, but at this point they are hopes not reality.
We will see. I am on my second EV now and have high hopes to own a Tesla pickup. I am retired and charge my car at home. Been a year since I filled the caddy with gas and parked it in the garage.
 

The Old Soul

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I am not contesting that electric motors are much better in almost every category,
but rather pointing out that the way the energy is carried in batteries is deficient.
Ultimately I would expect to see some better way of carrying hydrogen and the electricity coming from a fuel cell.
Hydrogen pasts. looks very promising, as it has a better energy density than gasoline,
that combined with fuel cell efficiency of ~65%, means that each unit of mass would have about 3 times the energy of each unit of
gasoline burned in a heat engine, and about 30 time the energy in each mass unit of battery.
I was on the Hydrogen train a few years ago and thought the fuel source was inevitable, so I bought a bunch of Platinum since that is the preferred catalyst in H motors. Considering the subsequest investor reports, car manufacturer trends, and the metals price, its not on the radar; it looks like vehicular motivation is leap-frogging right to eM. Either way, H or e-, I'm on board.
 

iguanaman

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It still comes down to energy density, I like the fuel cell truck, at least that is more practical than the Semi with a 250 mile battery.
Also while Toyota is looking at direct hydrogen storage, it is not necessarily a requirement, as hydrogen can easily be stripped off of any hydrocarbon
fuel, the advantage being the way the fuel is carried.
I think Toyota Mirai carries about 4 kg of hydrogen, which could be carried in 28 kg of gasoline, or about 8 gallons.
And that 8 gallons goes over 400 miles because of the efficiency of electric cars over IC engines. When you burn something it produces heat more than anything else.
 

iguanaman

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We will see. I am on my second EV now and have high hopes to own a Tesla pickup. I am retired and charge my car at home. Been a year since I filled the caddy with gas and parked it in the garage.
You better drain that gas in your Caddy before it turns to varnish and wrecks your fuel system. Yet another problem with hydrocarbon fuels. They degrade rapidly.
 

craig

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I am not contesting that electric motors are much better in almost every category,
but rather pointing out that the way the energy is carried in batteries is deficient.
Ultimately I would expect to see some better way of carrying hydrogen and the electricity coming from a fuel cell.
Hydrogen pasts. looks very promising, as it has a better energy density than gasoline,
that combined with fuel cell efficiency of ~65%, means that each unit of mass would have about 3 times the energy of each unit of
gasoline burned in a heat engine, and about 30 time the energy in each mass unit of battery.
The average car is driven about 30 miles a day. I think the great thing about electric cars is that when there are millions of them parked at home or work and plugged into the grid we will be able to use them to distribute demand over time and not need as much on-demand generation. Also transporting and storing hydrogen would seem to be a logistical problem. Don't know that we could leverage much of the fossil fuel infrastructure.
 

longview

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And that 8 gallons goes over 400 miles because of the efficiency of electric cars over IC engines. When you burn something it produces heat more than anything else.
Not at all it would go over 400 miles because of the efficiency of the fuel cell to convert the energy in the fuel
to electricity, it is the increase from 20% efficiency to ~65 % efficiency that did the improving,
the electric motor is simply the way or converting the electricity into mechanical work
 
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