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Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phrase)

Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

Your statement is like claiming that the founding fathers "wouldn't intervene if the American king had a purple crown". The truth is that nobody knows how the founders would feel about the color of the crown, because they wouldn't have allowed a king in the first place.

No, it isn't. There is no historical evidence that people went around wearing purple crowns in the colonial/early US. You are simply bringing up a purposefully ridiculous and baseless analogy. There is evidence that the term god was used often in public/government documents, so we do have an idea of their perspective in the matter--ie. this is not "baseless," there is historically relevant information available to us concerning the use of the word.

The whole point, which you seem to have missed, is that people today who want to intervene and remove the word god from the pledge on the basis that it somehow violates the constitution are overlooking the fact that the founders never made any attempt to do so in analogous public documents, etc, despite the known prevalence of the word. You can gain some understanding of what the constitution is and how it should be applied by looking at the people who wrote it, ratified it, and lived under it in the formative years of the United States, as opposed to framing the debate under an entirely modern standard that seeks to purposefully exclude the founder's intent -- Both the founder's inent and modern applicability should be considered if one wants to state that the phrase "under god" is somehow unconstitutional.
 
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Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

The whole point, which you seem to have missed, is that people today who want to intervene and remove the word god from the pledge on the basis that it somehow violates the constitution are overlooking the fact that the founders never made any attempt to do so in analogous public documents, etc,


Article six of the Constitution undermines your argument.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

God is on our money, i

In God We Trust was put on the currency during the Cold War in order to scare the Soviets.

Personally I dont give a ****, there a bigger fights to worry about.
 
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Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

*yawn*
After 50 YEARS the argument is officially OLD.

God is on our money, in our Constitution and in our Declaration of Independence. Do these documents need to be rewritten? Whether people like you or me believe in him or not *doesn't matter* because *many who founded the US and paved the path* believed they did so with his blessing (or whatever).

I don't mind it - eventhough I'm anti-religiou - because, to me, it's sentimental and symbolic - and meaningful to others. The minority on this issue surely does *not* outweigh the majority.

And it's such a non-issue, really. There are so many other more important things to really get yourself stirred over and fired up for.

If we want to be constitutional then yes we ought to rephrase the Pledge and make changes to the mint.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

Too funny - considering that the principles our country was founded on are written out in the Declaration of Independence and the Constititution - which include words like 'Creator' and 'God' everywhere.

The horror!

Where are words like "creator" and "god" in the Constitution itself?
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

Article six of the Constitution undermines your argument.

How so? Are you speaking of the "no religious test" portion?

If so, might I remind that the pledge is not an oath of public office, which is what those words applied to. Even if you believe that the pledge fell under that portion of Article VI, all that would mean is that when reciting the pledge, a person isn't obligated to utter the words "under God", just as it is with oaths of office.

If you are referring to all states having to abide by the constitution and federal law, there is nothing in the constitution or any federal law that forbids the word "god" from being in the pledge. The establishment clause in the 1st amendment, forbids the government from establishing laws that show favoritism toward, or discriminating against, any particular religion. It does not mean the government can't acknowledge religion, or can't enter into the religious domain.

Look, if the pledge said "one nation under Jesus", or "Buddha", or "Mohamed", that would be a recognition of a specific religion, therefore unconstitutional. The word "God" is not the exclusive property of any single religion. It is a general term that depicts ones "Creator", or "higher power", regardless of their specific faith.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

*yawn*
After 50 YEARS the argument is officially OLD.

God is on our money, in our Constitution and in our Declaration of Independence.
The word God is not used in the Declaration of Independence. The word creator is used. And granted, that can be interpreted to refer to a spiritual being, it can and has been used to refer to nature, etc. Additionally, it is the Constitution that was the legal document that established the parameters of our government. The word God, or reference thereof, is not found in the Constitution, neither the original nor in any of the Amendments. There is one exception that is found in the Signatory section. The date is written "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The use of the word "Lord" is not a religious reference but refers to a much used way of expressing dates. "In God we trust" was first placed on our coins during the civil war in 1864. It was added to the silver certificate in 1957.
My issue is more basic. I strongly believe in complete separation of church & state. To combine the two results in the dilution of both. And before you suggest that I am somehow an infadel, I will point out that I am a Born-Again Christian. I have close friends who are missionaries who are in countries where they can be deported, jailed, or killed for merely preashing the word. In some cases, the government is a theology. We have a democracy and you can't be supportive of one religion without doing so at the expense of others freedoms. I was an Executive Director of a Faith Based non-profit. I chose to illicit the faith based funds that existed within the Bush Administration and exist today in the Obama Administration. I did so because the funds come with a fire-wall attatched. If you get the funds, you may utilize them only so long as you do not exercise your right to discuss your beliefs. To do so, would negate the primary goal of the program. And therein rests the rub. Christianity is a choice. Everyone needs the freedom to make that choice.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

How so? Are you speaking of the "no religious test" portion?


I was talking about the founders and the other posters contention that " are overlooking the fact that the founders never made any attempt to do so in analogous public documents, etc." Article six made the religious test portion of many State Constitutitions null and void undermining the other posters argument.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

I was talking about the founders and the other posters contention that " are overlooking the fact that the founders never made any attempt to do so in analogous public documents, etc." Article six made the religious test portion of many State Constitutitions null and void undermining the other posters argument.

That's true that the US constitution did nullify many religious test portions in various state constitutions, but nothing was nullified based on the word "God" appearing or because of any general religious references.

As I pointed out earlier, you'll find the word "God" or "creator" in the constitutions of all 50 states.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

God is on our money

This reminded me of an interesting fact I heard the other day. The first US penny was designed by Benjamin Franklin. It didn't say "In god we trust" like our money does now. Instead, it said "Mind your business". We should petition to change that back.

First US Penny Said “Mind Your Business”
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

This reminded me of an interesting fact I heard the other day. The first US penny was designed by Benjamin Franklin. It didn't say "In god we trust" like our money does now. Instead, it said "Mind your business". We should petition to change that back.

First US Penny Said “Mind Your Business”

Much better slogan if you ask me.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

I was talking about the founders and the other posters contention that " are overlooking the fact that the founders never made any attempt to do so in analogous public documents, etc." Article six made the religious test portion of many State Constitutitions null and void undermining the other posters argument.

I was speaking about the use of the word "God," not a religious test as a prerequisite to hold office.

Still waiting, if y'all want to provide any actual proof of a campaign during the 1780s to erase the word "god" from public or official documentation. Good luck.
 
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Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

The constitution does not mention god.

You might want to check Article VII of the Constitution then since it references Jesus.

done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven

The bolded section is the shortened version of the phrase Year of our Lord Jesus Christ, so yes the Constitution does mention God.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

You might want to check Article VII of the Constitution then since it references Jesus.



The bolded section is the shortened version of the phrase Year of our Lord Jesus Christ, so yes the Constitution does mention God.

First of all, that isn't in Article 7, it's just the date. "The Year of our Lord" is only a reference to the year, and cannot reasonably be construed as any sort of constitutional provision relating to Jesus. That is an entirely disingenuous reading of it.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

First of all, that isn't in Article 7, it's just the date. "The Year of our Lord" is only a reference to the year, and cannot reasonably be construed as any sort of constitutional provision relating to Jesus. That is an entirely disingenuous reading of it.

It is part of Article VII since the entirity of it says:
The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.

The Word, "the," being interlined between the seventh and eighth Lines of the first Page, the Word "Thirty" being partly written on an Erazure in the fifteenth Line of the first Page, The Words "is tried" being interlined between the thirty second and thirty third Lines of the first Page and the Word "the" being interlined between the forty third and forty fourth Lines of the second Page.

Attest William Jackson Secretary

done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

Year of our Lord refers to the latin Anno Domini which is translated fully as The Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

[...]
Year of our Lord refers to the latin Anno Domini which is translated fully as The Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

...And now they're people putting "Common Era" behind the year in order to mitigate that too. :doh
 
Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

Year of our Lord refers to the latin Anno Domini which is translated fully as The Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anno Domini just means "In the Year of the Lord."

The Latin phrase for "In the Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ" is: Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Christi
 
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Re: Evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance ("Under God" isn't the only 'added in' phra

It is part of Article VII since the entirity of it says:


Year of our Lord refers to the latin Anno Domini which is translated fully as The Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, when we say "AD", are we all advocating Christianity, or are we just marking time according to a commonly recognized event? They were marking time according to a commonly recognized event. The constitution does not mention god.
 
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