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Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and ___

Deuce

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Title too freaking long!
Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Experiments and Research on Detainees to Design Torture Techniques and Create Legal Cover

Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Experiments and Research on Detainees to Design Torture Techniques and Create Legal Cover

(Cambridge, MA) In the most comprehensive investigation to date of health professionals' involvement in the CIA's "enhanced" interrogation program (EIP), Physicians For Human Rights has uncovered evidence that indicates the Bush administration apparently conducted illegal and unethical human experimentation and research on detainees in CIA custody. The apparent experimentation and research appear to have been performed to provide legal cover for torture, as well as to help justify and shape future procedures and policies governing the use of the "enhanced" interrogation techniques.
--
This evidence indicating apparent research and experimentation on detainees opens the door to
potential additional legal liability for the CIA and Bush-era officials. There is no publicly available evidence that the Department of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel determined that the alleged experimentation and research performed on detainees was lawful, as it did with the "enhanced" techniques themselves.

While the evidence is obviously not public and therefore I can't really judge the accuracy of the allegations, if this is something solid it really should be brought to the light. I really think 9/11 pushed America to compromise some of its core values. Slowly and steadily we eroded civil liberties and started doing a legal dance with the goal of inflicting more pain on people who are prisoners of war. And don't think I'm just pointing a finger at Bush. The PATRIOT act passed with a huge majority in both parties. Congressional committees oversea a lot of these high-level intelligence activities, or at least they're supposed to. The Obama administration hasn't changed any of these practices significantly, and has even extended the arm of government further in some cases.

It's ****ed up. I want it to stop. We're at war with terror, allegedly. We should treat prisoners as prisoners of war. They may not have signed the Geneva Convention, but we did. This "enemy combatant" label was fabricated with the express purpose of circumventing that code of conduct that we're supposed to stand for.

"All wars are follies, very expensive and very mischievous ones. "
"Anger is never without a reason, but seldom with a good one."
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- All three Benjamin Franklin

We are America! I don't give a rats ass if it helps! We are America! We do not ****ing torture!"
- Shepherd Smith
 
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Redress

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

I think I am going to wait for actual details before I even think about judging this.
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

If true... bang! bang! bang!

That's the hammer on more nails in Bush & Cheeney's treason coffin.
 

Redress

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

If true... bang! bang! bang!

That's the hammer on more nails in Bush & Cheeney's treason coffin.

Well that's nice. Seeing anything good in this story...
 

Renae

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

A heavily biased source finds possible links of possible doings that might possibly be wrong.

I'm possible interested if they possibly find anything that's possibly credible.
 

tacomancer

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

If this is true, than anyone involved in this should be prosecuted within the full force of any laws or treaties (Geneva Convention) up to and including execution if that is what the law calls for. But right now I am skeptical of the authenticity of the details, so I will withhold judgment.
 

ADK_Forever

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

Well that's nice. Seeing anything good in this story...

It's sorta like the Chinese water torture. It's not one drip that breaks you. Or two, or three or four...

drip:::drip:::drip:::
 

apdst

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

PHR Library is a legit source for BN-Blogs? I'm betting, no.
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

I think we should wait before evidence becomes public to pass any kind of judgement. Though if true, everyone involved should be tried in accordance to the Geneva Convention.
 

Deuce

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

Yeah in hindsight this is a better place for the thread. I forget about the zillion different subforums somtimes >.<

I think we should wait before evidence becomes public to pass any kind of judgement. Though if true, everyone involved should be tried in accordance to the Geneva Convention.

The problem with an investigation like this is that the evidence never really "becomes public."
 

RightinNYC

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

It's a press release from a liberal advocacy group with little to support its allegations.

The claim of "torture experimentation" is based on the fact that the government was strict about having doctors present to document all of the interrogation procedures and monitor the detainees. Of course, had the government not done so, there would be another liberal advocacy group decrying the Bush Administration's policy of not providing adequate medical assistance.

The idea that having a doctor present to monitor a detainee's health = "torture experimentation" is just absurd.
 

Demon of Light

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

It's a press release from a liberal advocacy group with little to support its allegations.

The claim of "torture experimentation" is based on the fact that the government was strict about having doctors present to document all of the interrogation procedures and monitor the detainees. Of course, had the government not done so, there would be another liberal advocacy group decrying the Bush Administration's policy of not providing adequate medical assistance.

The idea that having a doctor present to monitor a detainee's health = "torture experimentation" is just absurd.

^ This.

Honestly, this is really blowing things out of proportion. It appears the entire basis for calling this "experimentation" and "research" is the fact doctors were present, took notes, and made suggestions on how to make it more humane. Honestly, would they be happier if doctors had not been there, not been able to say whether these techniques were too harmful, and not suggested ways to minimize long-term damage?
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

^ This.

Honestly, this is really blowing things out of proportion. It appears the entire basis for calling this "experimentation" and "research" is the fact doctors were present, took notes, and made suggestions on how to make it more humane. Honestly, would they be happier if doctors had not been there, not been able to say whether these techniques were too harmful, and not suggested ways to minimize long-term damage?

I find offense that these "experiments" were allegedly even taking place.
 

RightinNYC

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

I find offense that these "experiments" were allegedly even taking place.

Nobody is saying that you're not entitled to object to the interrogation methods that were used, but all of the information necessary to support your concerns was made public years ago. Nothing in this report is any more objectionable than that which we already knew.
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

Nobody is saying that you're not entitled to object to the interrogation methods that were used, but all of the information necessary to support your concerns was made public years ago. Nothing in this report is any more objectionable than that which we already knew.

How so?

We were told torture was illegal and it is in the civilized world. The excuse was that it was to gather information about "attacks".

Now, we find out it was to experiment on human beings. This is more Nazi like...and NOT legal in ANY International court.
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

Nobody has produced a legitimate argument for why I should care about an international court, or even oblige to its jurisdiction.
 

RightinNYC

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

How so?

We were told torture was illegal and it is in the civilized world. The excuse was that it was to gather information about "attacks".

Now, we find out it was to experiment on human beings. This is more Nazi like...and NOT legal in ANY International court.

Where are you getting the idea that the purpose was to experiment on human beings? That's pretty much the exact opposite of what the evidence indicates.
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

Where are you getting the idea that the purpose was to experiment on human beings? That's pretty much the exact opposite of what the evidence indicates.

Yeah, but it is exactly what this article states!


Physicians For Human Rights has uncovered evidence that indicates the Bush administration apparently conducted illegal and unethical human experimentation and research on detainees in CIA custody. The apparent experimentation and research appear to have been performed to provide legal cover for torture, as well as to help justify and shape future procedures and policies governing the use of the "enhanced" interrogation techniques. The PHR report, Experiments in Torture: Human Subject Research and Evidence of Experimentation in the 'Enhanced' Interrogation Program, is the first to provide evidence that CIA medical personnel engaged in the crime of illegal experimentation after 9/11, in addition to the previously disclosed crime of torture.

This evidence indicating apparent research and experimentation on detainees opens the door to potential additional legal liability for the CIA and Bush-era officials. There is no publicly available evidence that the Department of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel determined that the alleged experimentation and research performed on detainees was lawful, as it did with the "enhanced" techniques themselves.
"The CIA appears to have broken all accepted legal and ethical standards put in place since the Second World War to protect prisoners from being the subjects of experimentation," said Frank Donaghue, PHR's Chief Executive Officer. "Not only are these alleged acts gross violations of human rights law, they are a grave affront to America's core values."
"In their attempt to justify the war crime of torture, the CIA appears to have committed another alleged war crime – illegal experimentation on prisoners,"
Once again, your wordsmithing fails.

So, now the accusations that the Bush administration acted like a bunch of Nazis... is now another sad truth about the Worst Presidency in History. :(
 

RightinNYC

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and


Yeah, but it is exactly what this article states!


Once again, your wordsmithing fails.

So, now the accusations that the Bush administration acted like a bunch of Nazis... is now another sad truth about the Worst Presidency in History. :(

Once again:

It's a press release from a liberal advocacy group with little to support its allegations.

The claim of "torture experimentation" is based on the fact that the government was strict about having doctors present to document all of the interrogation procedures and monitor the detainees. Of course, had the government not done so, there would be another liberal advocacy group decrying the Bush Administration's policy of not providing adequate medical assistance.

The idea that having a doctor present to monitor a detainee's health = "torture experimentation" is just absurd.

You're free to claim that this is proof that we tortured people for the purpose of medical experimentation. I think that's an unsupportable claim (to put it mildly), but I don't see much value in trying to convince you otherwise.
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

You're free to claim that this is proof that we tortured people for the purpose of medical experimentation. I think that's an unsupportable claim (to put it mildly), but I don't see much value in trying to convince you otherwise.

Well, they sure seem to have some damning proof of their claims. Do you have any proof to support that this "advocacy" group is not credible? They've done some very respectable work.

I realize you don't want to see proof of what Bush actually did to violate international and U.S. laws but, this report lays it out for a blind man to follow. This report is based on a 6 month of investigation, interviews and declassified government documents. You can ignore it all you wish.

The truth is coming about Bush's crimes. You might want to prepare yourself for it.


After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts, and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.
Maj. General Antonio M. Taguba (USA-Ret.),
June 2008 preface to Broken Laws, Broken Lives
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and


Well, they sure seem to have some damning proof of their claims.


Such as...?

Do you have any proof to support that this "advocacy" group is not credible?

That's not really how it works. If they want to claim that we tortured people for purposes of medical experimentation, the burden is on them to prove it. Saying "there were doctors there monitoring things so that makes it experimentation" doesn't quite cut it.
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

I find offense that these "experiments" were allegedly even taking place.

Are you referring to the interrogations themselves or are you actually suggesting that having doctors there to insure minimal harm is a bad thing?

Now, we find out it was to experiment on human beings. This is more Nazi like...and NOT legal in ANY International court.

Are you serious? The group putting out this report didn't even say such an absurd thing. Hell, they had to stretch the definition of research and experimentation just to make the claims they did.

So, now the accusations that the Bush administration acted like a bunch of Nazis... is now another sad truth about the Worst Presidency in History. :(

Overdramatic Bush haters make head hurt. :hammer:
 

Aunt Spiker

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

Well - no duh they would have to experiment around, first, before deciding which torture tactics were most "useful"
Do this - did it work well? No? . . . then do something else.

So this, to me, wouldn't *add* to the *bad* fact that they *did* torture people :shrug: So if it's true or not doesn't matter.
 

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

Are you referring to the interrogations themselves or are you actually suggesting that having doctors there to insure minimal harm is a bad thing?

The alleged torture. Interrogations are fine, torture isn't. I don't care if there were doctors there or not, we shouldn't have been torturing people.
 

Demon of Light

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Re: Evidence Indicates that the Bush Administration Conducted Torture Experiments and

I don't care if there were doctors there or not, we shouldn't have been torturing people.

Actually, I think it serves to minimize the severity of accusations. These doctors, according to this very source, were there to look at how harmful the techniques were and suggest ways to minimize harm. It specifically mentions something they introduced to water-boarding to greatly minimize the chance of serious injury or death. Wouldn't you want such changes?
 
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