• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Evidence explosives were planted in WTC7 during OEM renovations in 1998 and 1999.

Another question to ask is how did the people know enough to protect the explosives enough to withstand fire for several hours?
 
He supposedly answered but cannot seem to locate where it is....

He speculated something about protective pads. Yet no evidences of such has been produced. It is the "what if" answer.

What if... the explosives were well insulated to protect from fire and muffle the sound.

Without evidence the claim of CD is not valid. That is why "they" are trying so hard to show fire could not have done it. "they" know there is no evidence of explosive use.
 
He speculated something about protective pads. Yet no evidences of such has been produced. It is the "what if" answer.

What if... the explosives were well insulated to protect from fire and muffle the sound.

Without evidence the claim of CD is not valid. That is why "they" are trying so hard to show fire could not have done it. "they" know there is no evidence of explosive use.

Dude, we can see right through you. You pester us to speculate about something with limited information that has not been investigated properly by the authorities, and then you turn around and say there's no hard evidence for the speculation.
 
<Snipped lies about not been investigated properly>.

MicahJava...

YOU brought up the idea explosives were planted in WTC7 during OEM renovations in 1998 and 1999.

Have you no intelligent reason for proposing that explosives were planted in WTC7 during OEM renovations in 1998 and 1999?

Is the MSU? (Making **** Up)
 
Last edited:
He speculated something about protective pads. Yet no evidences of such has been produced. It is the "what if" answer.

What if... the explosives were well insulated to protect from fire and muffle the sound.

Without evidence the claim of CD is not valid. That is why "they" are trying so hard to show fire could not have done it. "they" know there is no evidence of explosive use.

Muffle the sound?

It's literally impossible to muffle the sound of explosives and still have them perform the intended function.
 
Dude, we can see right through you. You pester us to speculate about something with limited information that has not been investigated properly by the authorities, and then you turn around and say there's no hard evidence for the speculation.

No I pester you to provide evidence to back up your speculation. You play the "what if" game and not very well.
 
Muffle the sound?

It's literally impossible to muffle the sound of explosives and still have them perform the intended function.

I know that.

Much like how do you reduce the sound of a nuke going off, as some have claimed.
 
On 9/11/2001 19 men hijacked 4 commercial aircraft with the intent of using them as Kamikaze style missiles. Their intended targets were internationally famous structures which were symbols of American economic, military and political power and would be heavily occupied at the time of attack insuring maximum casualties (which was the real point). 3 of those attacks were successful, one was semi-successful (they still crashed the plane and killed a lot of American's so still a win). It was a relatively simple plot with simple goals requiring little sophistication and resources. The real beauty of it was, everything after hijacked airliners was a victory. Even if none had hit their intended targets, even if zero buildings had been destroyed, just hijacking 4 planes and crashing them, killing all aboard and maybe some folks on the ground would have been massive.

So we got that going, which is nice. But then there is the case of 7 World Trade Center – a building that wasn’t hit by a plane but managed to collapse anyway. What do we know about 7 WTC?

7 World Trade Center was not a world-famous building or iconic symbol of anything. Indeed, unless you worked in or near it there is almost zero chance you would ever have heard of it.

7 World Trade Center was of no great significance, its loss a mere footnote to the greater events of 9/11/2001, as fully evidenced by the CT slogan Did you know a 3rd tower fell on 9/11? The loss 7 WTC changed and influenced nothing.

7 World Trade Center was not a target of attack on 9/11/2001. Not only was it not hit by a plane, it wasn’t attacked at all, by anyone. There is no cover story to explain its collapse. If the structure had been the victim of some nefarious plot, why was it not attacked?

7 World Trade Center was not occupied at the time of its loss, meaning zero (zilch, none, nada) casualties. So what's the point when every other attack was geared to kill hundreds or thousands?

7 World Trade Center collapsed in full public view some 7 hours after the Twin Towers collapsed. No plausible reason to do that on purpose.

7 World Trade Center - Tony's denials aside – suffered heavy damage and burned out of control for 7 hours, showing undeniable signs of structural distress hours before it finally gave in. So much so that the area around 7 was evacuated for safety and urgent search-and-rescue operations nearby had to be suspended. No one at the time was surprised by its loss.

Only later did the non-thinkers, who apparently weren’t paying attention at the time or perhaps just forgot, when they suddenly discovered this event years later found it surprising, which colored all of their thinking afterward. After all, The Man must have been trying to keep secret from them because they were too dumb ignorant to pay attention or remember it.

TBC
 
(continued)

If you are a conspiracy theorist and a building collapsed on 9/11 it must have been meant to collapse. There are no accidents, no collateral damage, no unintended consequences in the CT world. So the idea that a high-rise steel frame building could collapse because of a few office furniture fires just doesn't compute. A low-rise building, sure. No problem. But once the building reaches a certain arbitrary height fire just knows that it can't knock it down so it stops. After all, no steel-frame high-rise building has ever collapsed due to fire before 9/11 and as we all know if something has never happened before it can never happen.

But there are a few problems.

As we already know, there was no plausible reason to raise 7 WTC to the ground. It was not famous, iconic or occupied, explaining why it was not a target and why it left no imprint on the national psyche. Tony will say it was to destroy some SEC files but that is a rationalization, not a reason which also ignores the fact that "files" these days are more often than not kept on computers which feed servers that might not even be on site. It also ignores the Elephant in the room that if there are files worth destroying then it stands to reason it is equally worth destroying the people who have read the files. But they all got out. Why of course 7 WTC had to be rigged years in advance to destroy some SEC files that probably didn't even exist at the time of the rigging seems difficult to explain. And why the Pentagon had to be attacked to destroy some SEC files in an unknown building in New York truly boggles the mind.

We can stop right there really. There is no reason to go forward. 7 hours of unfought fires quite easily explains the loss of this unknown and unimportant structure that was not attacked and in which no one was killed. But sometimes its fun to explore the implausibilities even further.

For years CT's argued that because the collapse of 7 WTC looked just like a controlled demolition (if you didn't look to closely and don't listen at all), it therefore must have been a controlled demolition, in much the same way that because a Crocodile looks like an Alligator it must be an Alligator.

Oh wait,...

At first they argued for explosive controlled demolition - you know, the way most real controlled demolitions are done in this country - but again we have an Elephant in the room; a complete lack of,...
:bomb: :bomb: :bomb: :bomb: :bomb:

CT's could only go so long muting the audio on Youtube video's to hide this rather obvious fact before the foul stench caught up to them. So naturally they invented the Thermite Hypothesis to explain the lack of multiple, deafening BOOM's from high explosives, each shattering every window for blocks and sending potentially lethal high-velocity ejecta in every direction for hundreds of yards, not to mention the complete lack of explosively cut steel. This presented a new problem: No high-rise steel frame building has ever undergone a controlled demolition using Super High Intensity Thermite and as we all know, something that has never happened can never happen so that didn't happen. Really though its because S.H.I.T. is a really dumb idea that was invented as a rationalization to maintain the CD delusuion, not an explanation for the real-world event.
 
(continued)

The idea that The Man would spend days/weeks/months trying to secretly rig 8 floors of core columns (every core column, times 8) with super-secret hush-a-boom silent non-exploding explosives in a fully occupied, not famous and not important building of no great significance with its immense cost, logistical hassles and risk of being caught just to create the Holy Grail of 2.25 seconds of "free-fall" is of course, beyond stupid.

Nobody is going to do that.

But it gets worse. Tony for example gets increasingly desperate in his rationalizations. Because he works the problem backwards he thinks he has to find a rationalization for every single anomaly to maintain the CD fiction. So what do we end up with?

According to Tony, the plotters rigged the building with super-secret silenced C4 hush-a-booms that produce no noise, flash, blast, supersonic pressure wave or lethal high-velocity fragments and whose leads and detonators are impervious to fire when the OEM Bunker remodeling work was done in the late 90’s (really planning ahead). Why? To destroy SEC files that wouldn’t show up in the building until years later and may not have even existed at the time the work was done. The OEM bunker was on the 23rd floor, which Tony (for reasons he does not explain) finds “suspicious”. I suspect it has something to do with the other floors already having tenants, which I realize is crazy talk but hey,…

Tony tells us 8 floors of all the core columns were rigged with explosives in order to achieve the magical CT Holy Grail of 2.25 seconds of free-fall. That A). This is gross overkill and no one would ever effing do that and B). the OEM bunker is on one (1) floor not eight (8 floors) seem to have gone unnoticed by the person making the claim. Tony implies the hush-a-booms were planted between floors 13 to 22 because there were no fires on those floors. That none of those are the floor containing the OEM bunker also seems to have escaped the claimant.

Further Tony opines that any fires observed in 7 WTC were set by secret arson Ninja’s who set diversionary fires as a ruse. After all, that makes way more sense than just blowing all those pre-planted explosives in this unknown, unimportant and unoccupied structure while it is still obscured in the dust of the falling North Tower where everyone would think 7 just collapsed because 1 fell on it. Remember, Tony is working the problem backwards trying to make CD fit what happened. He is not working the problem forward trying to figure out how someone would actually do a CD in the real world. If he ever does, he will realize how ridiculous and impossible it all is.

But we are not done.

After inexplicably letting 7 burn for 7 hours for no comprehensible reason whatsoever the first charges dropped the East Mechanical Penthouse down a few floors (just a few) in order to lower the buildings center of gravity so it wouldn’t do so much damage to surrounding buildings. Yes, Tony actually told me this. Why is difficult to work out since The Man just killed 3,000 people and destroyed 8 other buildings, seriously damaging 25 more and damaging at least another 100 without the least bit of concern. Not that it worked mind you as the Verizon building next door suffered hundreds of millions of dollars in damage and Fiterman Hall across the street had to be condemned. Only after they reduce the center of gravity so 7 won’t topple over too much as it falls do they release the 8 floors of magical hush-a-booms so they can finally, belatedly bring this unknown, unimportant and un-iconic building to the ground for no reason,... with 2.25 seconds of free-fall.

Is THAT really what you would do Tony? Or anyone? Anywhere? Ever? :confused:
 
(continued)

If for some un-imaginable reason The Man deemed it was necessary to bring down an entire unknown, unimportant, unoccpied non-iconic building in order to advance whatever this is supposed to advance in the plot and there was no other way to accomplish said goal but bringing the building down how would someone in the rearl world, working the problem forward in the most practical way possible (as a real person would) go about it?

The obvious thing, the only thing any plotter with half a brain cell would do is recruit a couple of shady guys to load up and then drive a Ryder truck full of ammonium nitrate and diesel oil under the cantilever and let er' rip, preferably right around the time of the plane impacts in the Twin Towers or to coincide with one of the Towers collapse.

Why?

Simplicity
Easily blamed on terrorists
Very, very few people involved
Orders-of-magnitude less risk
Very low cost
High probability of success
Maximum human casualties

If you are a CT, you don't want to hear about that. It is what anyone would do in the real world but anything that could have been done by terrorists (even if it could also have been done by The Man) just isn't gonna hunt. The only explanations they will accept are ones that could only have been an inside job, no matter how overly complex, implausible and unrealistic they are. Fire? Forget freakin fire! Its only one of the most destructive forces known to man, capable of taking out entire cities at a time (and it has) but once a building reaches that magic arbitrary height,…

The building fell man, and if it fell it must have been meant to fall. There are no accidents, no collateral damage in CT land and remember, in CT land they only care about buildings, not victims.

:rantoff:
 
Well said...

I doubt it will have any effect...

Micah, Gerry and Tony will just find more rabbit holes to go down.

Its not going to have any effect on them. One can not reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into. All 3 of them suffer the same fatal predilection to work the problem backwards to make it fit their narrative. They never see how silly that narrative gets because they never review it right-way around.
 
Its not going to have any effect on them. One can not reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into. All 3 of them suffer the same fatal predilection to work the problem backwards to make it fit their narrative. They never see how silly that narrative gets because they never review it right-way around.

NISTOPHOBIA is an ugly thing.....
 
MarkF

:applaud:applaud:applaud

Great post and summary. Well done.
 
Interesting how the "usual suspects" have avoided this thread like the plague....

What do you expect. All "they" want to do is" say it couldn't have been a fire induced collapse. When pressed for details "they" either say what is asked is unreasonable or the poster has some sort of mental issue.

I am not buying the explanation of well it could not have been fire, therefore it had to be CD. No other evidence needs to be provided..., as the definitive explanation for CD.
 
They can't. Its a rationalization, not a reason. Just like Tony's claim that the EPH was dropped into the building first to reduce it center of gravity is a rationalization, not a reason. Just like his ridiculous, downright silly claim that floor connections between the perimeter and core columns would still be horizontal after the core collapsed and thus only horizontal loads would be imparted on the perimeter is a rationalization. Everything has to be twisted to maintain the CD fantasy, no matter how ridiculous and implausible it gets. Because they always work the problem backwards - trying to figure out how to make each anomaly they discover fit the conclusion they have already reached - they never stop to realize just how ridiculous the fantasy has become.

Quite simply - no one, not anyone, anywhere, at any time would ever do on purpose what they claim was done on purpose.
 
Why CT's Don't Get Hired to Run Covert Ops

The Man: Thanks for coming in CT. We asked you here today because we need your proven track record of cracking secret government plots using Google. We are about to implement our secret plan to stage a fake terrorist attack on American soil and we need your expertise in spotting the telltale signs of an inside job to make sure the plan goes as smoothly and simply as possible, leaving no trace, evidence or witnesses behind.

CT: Well, I'm honored. But before I help you guys, what's in it for me.

The Man: The job pays standard shill rate, as per the union contract.

CT: Awesome. So what's the plan?

The Man: Well CT, our plan is very simple. We have tricked 19 young men into thinking they are working for a well-known Islamist radical group and are going to attack world famous, iconic symbols of American economic, military and political power while killing thousands of American's.

CT: What are the targets and how are they going to be attacked?

The Man: The World Trade Center Twin Towers, the Pentagon and the nations Capitol Building. We are going to stage it to look like a terrorists did it by hijacking and crashing 4 planes into them like Kamikaze's.

CT: Great, but what's the objective?

The Man: To justify a war in Iraq that most of the American public already wants of course. That way we can steal Iraq's oil, allowing the Iraqi's to sell it to our best and closest allies in the world; the Chinese.

CT: Who are the terrorists?

The Man: All are Iraqi's so we can make it look like Iraq was responsible.

CT: We should use guys from our allies like Saudi Arabia, and Yemen operating out of Afghanistan.

The Man: Why?

CT: Don't want to be too obvious.

The Man: Right.

CT: So,… the Twin Towers are going to completely collapse, right?

The Man: Well they,… ummmmmm,… should I suppose. Our calculations show that the aircraft impacts will be 5 to 7 times greater than what the Towers were designed to withstand, which should be more than adequate to bring the towers down. Thousands of people will be killed even if the Towers don't completely collapse so I don't think it matters much either way. The American people will wake up, see the Towers burning on their TV's with people jumping from them to escape the flames and demand immediate action.

CT: Casualties are all well and good but we have to make sure the Twin Towers completely collapse. The American public is not going to be traumatized into going to war just because thousands of innocent people are burned to death. They only care about buildings and if the Twin Towers don't completely collapse at free-fall speed into their own footprint the American public just won't support a war.

The Man: But our focus groups are telling us that,….

CT: Screw the focus groups. The American people will not go to war just because thousands of American's were killed on their own soil. They only care about buildings, not people. Trust me, I'm a conspiracy theorist. I know.

The Man: Well OK, If you say so. That's why we brought you on board. The trick of course is to absolutely ensure that the Twin Towers collapse while convincing the public it was a terrorist Kamikaze attack. I know, we fill some LD containers full of explosives and put those on the planes so they explode on impact with enough force to cause the immediate collapse of the building. That way no one has time to escape and the death toll will be in the tens of thousands.

CT: No way. Too complicated. I think we should hire some elevator repairmen to go into these most secure public buildings in the world and have them rig the entire building with explosive charges, starting at the exact floors where the planes will hit, then working downwards. Should take a handful of guys a couple of days max.

The Man: I think you are being a bit optimistic about the scope of the work. That would take a team of hundreds of men months to do. And all those office spaces they are working in would be fully occupied. People would notice.

CT: Nobody pays attention to an elevator repairman.
 
The Man: So the explosives pre-planted by the elevator repairmen will go off as soon as the planes hit then, right? Actually we should probably set them off the instant before the plane hits so there is no risk of the charges being damaged by the impact and subsequent fires.

CT: No. We'll wait until at least 45 minutes after impact, maybe longer.

The Man: But why? The impact and fires might disrupt the charges. If they don't go off and the building doesn't collapse, investigators are going to find them later. Also, that will allow time for thousands of people to escape.

CT: It’s the best way to make it look like plane impact plus fires took down the buildings, even though everyone knows that plane impact and fires can not bring down a steel-frame high-rise building because it has never happened before and what has never happened can never happen.

The Man: Won't people on the streets below hear and see the explosions? Many of them might get hurt by the shrapnel. And what about the shockwave blowing out all the windows in a multi-block radius?

CT: We will use new super secret silenced hush-a-boom C4 that no one has ever seen or heard of that produces no noise, no flash, no blast, no shockwave and no lethal high-velocity ejecta. And just to be sure we will add in some Thermite.

The Man: Thermite? But Thermite has never been used to demolish a steel frame high-rise building and we all know that if something has never happened before it can never happen.

CT: That is why we will be using Super High Intensity Thermite. It's the shi,… well, you know.

The Man: But won't it ignite prematurely in the impact and fires?

CT: Naw. It'll be fine.

The Man: But why Thermite and Hush-a-Booms?

CT: So there will be molten steel in the rubble pile months later obviously.

The Man: I don't know. This all seems overly complex and risky. I really think we should just load a container of C4 into the cargo hold on the plane,…

CT: It's gonna work great. Trust me. And the best part is, no one will suspect a thing. Just to be on the safe side though we should hang a pod full of explosives underneath Flight 175, attack it to the landing gear doors.

The Man: But won't people see it? Wouldn't that give the whole plan away?

CT: We'll camouflage the pod to make it almost invisible. At most it might show up on a few grainy, low resolution, out-of-focus still frames years later.

The Man: Like Bigfoot?

CT: Exactly

The Man: Still, why not just use the cargo container idea and put it inside the plane? And how will we mount it with the landing gear in the way? And why on only one plane???

CT: You worry too much. Just leave that to me.

The Man: Alright, that's New York handled then. Now about Washington. I suppose we will have to completely destroy the Pentagon and the Capitol Building as well so it has the necessary psychological impact.

CT: Nah. If the roof in just one section of the Pentagon collapses that will be fine.

The Man: So then why do we need the Twin Towers to completely collapse,…

CT: We just do. Hey man, I don't write the rules I just know this is how it works.

The Man: And the Capitol Building?

CT: Don't attack the Capitol Building.

The Man: OK, wait what,…?

CT: Instead of attacking the Capitol Building we should just crash that plane in an empty field outside a little unknown town in Pennsylvania.

The Man: Why would we do that?

CT: We can tell the public the passengers heroically tried to retake the plane. Sheeple love that stuff.

The Man: OK, I see your point.
 
CT: There's a problem though. If we don't destroy the Capitol building we will have to find another target of equal importance to take its place.

The Man: Like what?

CT: I know, how about Building 7?

The Man: What Building 7?

CT: Building 7 of the World Trade Center complex.

The Man: There's a Building 7 in the WTC complex???

CT: Yes. It is the perfect place to administer the coup de grace of this plan.

The Man: I'm not sure I follow.

CT: If we just demolish both Twin Towers killing thousands people, kill hundreds more at the Pentagon and destroy a plane with all its passengers and crew in Pennsylvania the public won't be outraged enough to justify a war in Iraq so we can steal Iraqi oil which they will then sell to the Chinese. We need icing on the cake if you will and Building 7 is it.

The Man: But I've never heard of Building 7 and I don't think most of the public has either. Is there anything important about it?

CT: Yes. The city of New York has is putting their Office of Emergency Management command center in it.

The Man: OK, but I really don't see,…

CT: And the SEC has some offices there and they have some files I can't name about some things I can't describe that should be destroyed for reasons I can't explain.

The Man: Files? Like computer files? Destroying the building won't help. Those could be stored on a server outside the building, or employee's might have back ups?

CT: No I'm sure its just paper files with no copies of anything anywhere else.

The Man: Wouldn't it just be much cheaper, easier and less risky to hire one of our secret Ninja infiltrators to sneak in and steal the files, or destroy them on site with a paper shredder?

CT: Just trust me, if we don't destroy this non-iconic building that no one has heard of the whole plan falls apart.

The Man: If you say so. We don't have any more planes left to crash into it and its too hard to hit anyway so we will need to figure a way to destroy the building that looks like either terrorists did it or it was collateral damage.

CT: Right.

The Man: We could set fire to the place, say it started when the Twin Towers fell. That would burn up all the files.

CT: Not good enough. No steel-frame high-rise has ever collapsed completely due to fire. Only low-rise steel frame buildings can collapse from fire. Fire knows the difference. We all know that something that has never happened before can never happen. Also, 7 has to completely collapse at free-fall speed into its own footprint too.

The Man: It does?

CT: Yes.

The Man: Why? All we need to do is destroy some files,…

CT: The American public won't approve a war they already want if thousands of people die and just two buildings completely collapse.

The Man: And the collapse of a building they have never even heard of and may not even remember the next day is going to do that?

CT: Yes.

The Man: Well our engineers are telling me the fires should do the job. Building 7 has a very unusual design with an Achilles Heel if you will. Eventually the building will become so weak it has to collapse.

CT: Not good enough. We need to be absolutely certain.

The Man: If making it look like an accident using fire isn't good enough then it needs to look like a terrorist attack. I recommend we hire a couple more patsies, have them load up a Ryder truck full of Amonium Nitrate and diesel oil, drive it under the cantilever and let er' rip. We could do that before the building is evacuated, that way anyone who knows about the secret SEC files will also be eliminated.
 
CT: That's never going to work. I propose that during the renovation on the 23rd floor to move in the OEM that workmen sneak down and plant explosive charges on every single core column for at least 8 consecutive stories between 13th and 22nd floors. 24 columns times 8 floors, that's a minimum of 192 sets of charges and a few hundred miles of wiring.

The Man: Why so many? Wouldn't planting the charges on one floor be more than enough? I mean, once the columns are severed the building can not stay standing. There's just no need to rig 8 floors. Its gross overkill, completely unnecessary and makes it more likely we are going to get caught.

CT: We need to blow 8 floors so the curtain wall free-falls for 2.25 seconds.

The Man: Really?

CT: Really.

The Man: We need 2.25 seconds of free-fall?

CT: Yes.

The Man: But all those offices on those 8 floors from one end of the building to the other are fully occupied, and there is no direct access to the columns without major interior demolition. How are we going to pull this off without anyone noticing?

CT: A couple of workmen should be able to knock that job out in a weekend.

The Man: That seems implausibly optimistic.

CT: That's why I'm a conspiracy theorist and you're not.

The Man: Good point.

CT: When we blow it we should probably start by dropping the East Mechanical Penthouse down a few floors below the roofline. That means more charges up high in the building.

The Man: Why?

CT: To lower the center of gravity so the building doesn't topple over on its side and cause a lot of damage to other nearby buildings.

The Man: But we are already set to completely destroy 16 blocks of Lower Manhattan and kill thousands of people.

CT: That should be enough, don't you think?

The Man: Fair enough. But is dropping the EPH a few floors going to be enough? Its still 40+ floors up. And why would the building just topple over like a tree anyway if we have the charges set so the core implodes first, pulling the perimeter down and inward on top of it?

CT: It just will. And wait, before I forget - we have to let the media know ahead of time that Building 7 is going to collapse.

The Man: We do?

CT: Oh yeah. They might not even notice a 47 story building falling down in broad daylight and of course we know that if they don't report it, the entire plan is ruined and the American people will just say "meh" and go on about their lives.

The Man: I really don't see how,…

CT: Really we should just give the media a script of the entire days events in advance to make sure they report everything.

The Man: But what if they accidentally jump ahead and report things that haven't happened yet. It will give away the whole thing!

CT: It’s a risk we will have to take. The media has to know everything ahead of time. The more people that know, the better.

The Man: But what if the media screw up and report the collapse prematurely. That will give the whole plan away!

CT: No chance. We'll let the BBC lead with it. You can always trust the British.

The Man: We control the British media too?

CT: Oh absolutely.

The Man: It's settled then, the whole media gets let in on it in advance.
 
Back
Top Bottom