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Evictionism; a right to remove the fetus, but not kill it.

So now small children know about asumed risk? Pull your head out...

You're taking one example of assumed risk and applying it entirely to a different example of assumed risk. A rather amateurish method for defeating an argument.
 
I would say that evictionism makes more sense if the argument is about a woman's right to end a pregnancy. Why does she have the right to kill what is in her womb? The fetus is not her body and it is not her property nor her life.
A better question is why should she be forced to sustain that life with her organs and her life. Would you say that the egg that was fertilized is her egg? How does anything that becomes of that with her resources become hot her property?
 
You're taking one example of assumed risk and applying it entirely to a different example of assumed risk. A rather amateurish method for defeating an argument.
Really now? And you came up with that all by yourself?
Well you missed the point. The point was that introducing "assumed risk" was silly as it did not apply, clearly this is over your head even coming from the amateur that I am.
 
I would say that evictionism makes more sense if the argument is about a woman's right to end a pregnancy. Why does she have the right to kill what is in her womb? The fetus is not her body and it is not her property nor her life.

Same could be said for a tapeworm.
 
A better question is why should she be forced to sustain that life with her organs and her life. Would you say that the egg that was fertilized is her egg? How does anything that becomes of that with her resources become hot her property?

So then if she has a male fetus does that make her a hermaphrodite? Can we say she has both a penis and vagina? A 9 month inconvenience does not justify murder. It's not like her child is hooked to her uterus forever. Her body is biologically accepting and willfully donating recourses to the fetus, and nature intends that the fetus only stay as long as it needs to. The woman doesn't have the right to make a choice that ends another's life. It isn't her heart, cells, or existence in this world that is being terminated.
Same could be said for a tapeworm.
A tapeworm is not equal to a human. A tapeworm is a parasite, a fetus is the product of natural biological reproduction.
 
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A tapeworm is not equal to a human. A tapeworm is a parasite, a fetus is the product of natural biological reproduction.
Why does she have the right to kill what is in her body? The tapeworm is not her body and it is not her property nor her life.
 
Why does she have the right to kill what is in her body? The tapeworm is not her body and it is not her property nor her life.

The same reason we have the right to kill animals for food. Human life is not equal with animal life. Regardless, the tapeworm is a parasite that is stealing nutrients from its host. Removing it could be considered an act of self defense. A fetus is a product of natural sexual reproduction which the body is designed for. The woman's body willfully donates its resources to the growing fetus, and then expels it when its time in the womb is over.
 
The same reason we have the right to kill animals for food. Human life is not equal with animal life.
But why?

Regardless, the tapeworm is a parasite that is stealing nutrients from its host.
So does a fetus.

Removing it could be considered an act of self defense.
Indeed! :mrgreen:

A fetus is a product of natural sexual reproduction which the body is designed for. The woman's body willfully donates its resources to the growing fetus, and then expels it when its time in the womb is over.
No, the woman does not "willfully" donate her bodily resources to the fetus. The fetus aggressively consumes them despite what the woman may or may not want. Unless, of course, she removes it from her body. The only time she WILLFULLY donates her bodily resources to the fetus is if she willingly chooses to allow it to remain in her body.
 
Whymake 'when life begins' even a part of this entire issue?

You and I have debated this before - "when" life begins isn't always a component in "why" many women don't want to carry a child.

agree completely. i believe life begins at conception, and i'm pro choice.
 
agree completely. i believe life begins at conception, and i'm pro choice.

I think life undeniably exists at conception. I've not seen an argument yet that could dispute that. And I'm very much pro-choice.
 
Got me, I believe so because of religious reasons. God said man was to inhabit the earth and has the right to kill and eat animals. On a secular natural order of things, humans are omnivores, our digestive system was designed to eat meat. Things in the natural exist to prolong their species. All other species outside humanity are inferior to us and in the game of "survival of the fittest" we have the right to kill and eat them. Human life > animal life.
So does a fetus.
Wrong, the fetus steals nothing. The mother's body willfully donates nutrients to the fetus.
Indeed! :mrgreen:
Which is why abortion is only justified in cases of self defense when the mother's life is proven to be in danger.
No, the woman does not "willfully" donate her bodily resources to the fetus. The fetus aggressively consumes them despite what the woman may or may not want. Unless, of course, she removes it from her body. The only time she WILLFULLY donates her bodily resources to the fetus is if she willingly chooses to allow it to remain in her body.
Yes she does. Her body willfully donates her bodily resources to the fetus. Her hormone levels change to suit the new life inside of her. Her body does not reject the fetus and nurtures it. She biologically willfully donates her bodily resources, she may not psychologically donate her biological resources. However, it is all intended to be over with in less than a year, and her comforts do not merit murdering her child that her body has accepted and willfully gives nutrients too.
 
Got me, I believe so because of religious reasons. God said man was to inhabit the earth and has the right to kill and eat animals. On a secular natural order of things, humans are omnivores, our digestive system was designed to eat meat. Things in the natural exist to prolong their species. All other species outside humanity are inferior to us and in the game of "survival of the fittest" we have the right to kill and eat them. Human life > animal life.
Well lord knows I can't argue with 'god'.

Wrong, the fetus steals nothing. The mother's body willfully donates nutrients to the fetus.
No, the fetus steals them. There is nothing the mother does that could even remotely be considered "willful" in giving up her bodily resources to a fetus. Aside from willfully choosing to allow it to remain in her body.

Which is why abortion is only justified in cases of self defense when the mother's life is proven to be in danger.
So my life needs to be in danger before I can remove a tapeworm? Because chances are, it's not going to endanger my life.


Yes she does. Her body willfully donates her bodily resources to the fetus.
One's body does not "willfully" do jack ****. "Willful" is implicitly an action of the mind. My body doesn't "willfully" grow toenails. It just grows toenails. There's nothing "willful" about it.
 
No, the fetus steals them. There is nothing the mother does that could even remotely be considered "willful" in giving up her bodily resources to a fetus. Aside from willfully choosing to allow it to remain in her body.
Does the fetus have any kind of offensive capabilities where it burrows into her blood stream and leeches off the mothers nutrients? No. The baby has the placenta which the woman accepts, and the woman's body freely gives nutrients to the fetus. Biologically, there is "willful" donation of bodily recourses to the fetus. The woman's immune system does not attack her child, and her body expels it when it is time for it to continue developing outside.
So my life needs to be in danger before I can remove a tapeworm? Because chances are, it's not going to endanger my life.
Nope, however your life has to be in danger in order to kill a human fetus.
One's body does not "willfully" do jack ****. "Willful" is implicitly an action of the mind. My body doesn't "willfully" grow toenails. It just grows toenails. There's nothing "willful" about it.
You are confusing the psychological with the biological. Your body has a biological will that is driven by DNA. Your mind has a mental will that is driven by your brain/soul. When a woman gets pregnant, her biological will is to accept the fetus and nurture it, and then further nurture it with breast milk after it is born. Regardless, why does the woman's psychological will have the right to kill a temporarily residing human life that is perfectly biologically natural? She doesn't.
 
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Your body has a biological will that is driven by DNA.
Sorry to butt in, but this is a 14-year-old line of reasoning; it's the same as when I teach a class that gravity happens because the rock 'wants' to fall to earth, or that intramolecular bonding happens because all atoms 'want' full shells of electrons. It's nice for conveying an idea, but please don't actually anthropomorphise it like this.

Does the fetus have any kind of offensive capabilities where it burrows into her blood stream and leeches off the mothers nutrients? No. The baby has the placenta which the woman accepts,
Actually, the foetus does do some 'burrowing in'. Step #7 is relevant here, I feel. 'The woman accepts' is another anthropomorphism.
 
Sorry to butt in, but this is a 14-year-old line of reasoning; it's the same as when I teach a class that gravity happens because the rock 'wants' to fall to earth, or that intramolecular bonding happens because all atoms 'want' full shells of electrons. It's nice for conveying an idea, but please don't actually anthropomorphise it like this.


Actually, the foetus does do some 'burrowing in'. Step #7 is relevant here, I feel. 'The woman accepts' is another anthropomorphism.

I think the point Digs is making (regardless of his wording) is that maintaining a pregnancy is for the most part an involuntary biological event.
 
I think the point Digs is making (regardless of his wording) is that maintaining a pregnancy is for the most part an involuntary biological event.
No, he's saying that it is 'biologically willful'.
 
Digs,...

Which term best fits the point you are trying to make?

Willful? Or Involuntary?

A combination of the two. Willfully involuntary. I would say it's biologically willful.
 
A combination of the two. Willfully involuntary. I would say it's biologically willful.


Hahahahaha,..

That doesn't help at all.

But well played,... I suppose.

I think the point needs to be made that even a woman in a coma can (and has) maintain a pregnancy to term.

To do so doesn't require a "willful" decision,... as pregnancy is for the most part "involuntary."
 
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Does the fetus have any kind of offensive capabilities where it burrows into her blood stream and leeches off the mothers nutrients? No. The baby has the placenta which the woman accepts, and the woman's body freely gives nutrients to the fetus. Biologically, there is "willful" donation of bodily recourses to the fetus. The woman's immune system does not attack her child, and her body expels it when it is time for it to continue developing outside.

Nope, however your life has to be in danger in order to kill a human fetus.

You are confusing the psychological with the biological. Your body has a biological will that is driven by DNA. Your mind has a mental will that is driven by your brain/soul. When a woman gets pregnant, her biological will is to accept the fetus and nurture it, and then further nurture it with breast milk after it is born. Regardless, why does the woman's psychological will have the right to kill a temporarily residing human life that is perfectly biologically natural? She doesn't.

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It *can*. Just like driving a car CAN result in inuries. That doesn't mean that by getting into a car you consent to losing a limb in an accident.

Am I the only one who thinks this comparison / analogy makes no sense?
 
huh? what? wait? what? :lamo

Am I the only one who thinks this comparison / analogy makes no sense?

Having sex can lead to pregnancy, but doesn't always. In fact, most often it does NOT lead to pregnancy. Ergo, having sex is not consent to being pregnant.

Driving a car CAN lead to accidents/injuries, but doesn't always. In fact, most often it does NOT lead to accidents/injuries. Ergo, driving a car is not consent to being injured in an accident.
 
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