Everybody wants peace but at what price and can we trust the offering of peace (1 Viewer)

[presluc]

[h=1]US to Engage Taliban in Peace Talks[/h]Jun 18, 2013
Military.com| by Bryant Jordan


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The White House on Tuesday announced its support of direct talks with the Taliban aimed at ending the 12-year-old war that followed the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
The U.S. statement followed Afghan President Hamid Karzai’s announcement in Kabul that negotiations would take place, and after securing an agreement from Taliban leaders that Afghanistan would no longer be a safe haven for groups planning or conducting terrorist attacks against the United States or its allies, senior White House officials told reporters in a conference call..QUOTE]

I have always been a supporter of peace, everybody has, but peace for America today is often paid for with rebuilding what war has destroyed or foreign aid , and often with the deaths of American military personal and American taxpayer dollars.
Sometimes after America pays for the rebuilding and pays in foreign aid so the country we were at war with can get back on their feet , there declare war on America again.

If indeed peace can be reached I can only hope that America will be a little tighter with their money than they have been in the past.


Korea had peace talks, Iran at one time had peace talks Iraq at one time had peace talks , there were more than one peace agreement between Israel and Palestine.

I'm reminded of an old historic saying {"BEWARE GREEKS BEARING GIFTS"}, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE GREEKS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE...

Ladies and Gentlemen I await your comments or views on this subject.eace

 

[ecofarm]

Everybody wants peace

Everybody wants peace

I, man, don't want no peace.

 

[presluc]

Re: Everybody wants peace

I, man, don't want no peace.

I appreciate your response, sir , but as for me I will always hope and pray for peace.

Too many good Americans have died in war.

I can not speak for other Americans , but I often ask myself what if these brave young men and women had lived?
Would America be a better place?eace

 

[MMC]

[h=1]US to Engage Taliban in Peace Talks[/h]Jun 18, 2013
Military.com| by Bryant Jordan


Add a Comment

The White House on Tuesday announced its support of direct talks with the Taliban aimed at ending the 12-year-old war that followed the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
The U.S. statement followed Afghan President Hamid Karzai’s announcement in Kabul that negotiations would take place, and after securing an agreement from Taliban leaders that Afghanistan would no longer be a safe haven for groups planning or conducting terrorist attacks against the United States or its allies, senior White House officials told reporters in a conference call..QUOTE]

I have always been a supporter of peace, everybody has, but peace for America today is often paid for with rebuilding what war has destroyed or foreign aid , and often with the deaths of American military personal and American taxpayer dollars.
Sometimes after America pays for the rebuilding and pays in foreign aid so the country we were at war with can get back on their feet , there declare war on America again.

If indeed peace can be reached I can only hope that America will be a little tighter with their money than they have been in the past.


Korea had peace talks, Iran at one time had peace talks Iraq at one time had peace talks , there were more than one peace agreement between Israel and Palestine.

I'm reminded of an old historic saying {"BEWARE GREEKS BEARING GIFTS"}, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE GREEKS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE...

Ladies and Gentlemen I await your comments or views on this subject.eace

Heya Presluc :2wave: .....Myself I believe we can never have peace in the physical universe. Other than when we ourselves are at peace with ourselves and all around one. Which is moreso on a personal level. Not that it isn't a Noble and Grand thought.

As for the US and the Taliban.....it is they who have gained. We have fought a war and came away with nothing but the blood on our hands and the loss of our people. No matter who was in power for us.

Nothing good.....ever comes from sleeping in bed with a snake or any serpent.

 

[CanadaJohn]

You cannot have peace with or within a country where civilization has not yet visited.

America and the coalition's mistake was not exiting Afghanistan in 2002 directly after the Taliban and Al Qaida were routed. I very much respect George Bush, but one of the biggest mistakes of his Presidency was not sticking to his political philosophy that America should not be in the business of nation building. A quick strike for retribution followed by a quick exit would have saved many American and coalition lives and those of innocent Afghanis - it would have been less costly if America had gone into Afghanistan every second year, as necessary, with overwhelming airstrikes than to set up shop in the country for 12 years. Obama, for political reasons, doubled down on stupid when he entered office simply to promote the Democrat meme that Afghanistan was the "just" war.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Everybody wants peace

I appreciate your response, sir ,

Don't call me sir, I worked for a living.

 

[presluc]

Heya Presluc :2wave: .....Myself I believe we can never have peace in the physical universe. Other than when we ourselves are at peace with ourselves and all around one. Which is moreso on a personal level. Not that it isn't a Noble and Grand thought.

As for the US and the Taliban.....it is they who have gained. We have fought a war and came away with nothing but the blood on our hands and the loss of our people. No matter who was in power for us.

Nothing good.....ever comes from sleeping in bed with a snake or any serpent.

I can only agree with your post my friend.

It is sad but true when the people of the world becomes at peace with who they are and what they have , perhaps then we can have peace.
It will not be in my lifetime, but I can only hope that by some miracle or fate or whatever, one day there will be no more war no more young people sent to fight and die.

As for the US and the Taliban your statement says it all "Nothing good ....ever comes from sleeping in bed with a snake or a serpent.

You've heard the story of the otter and the scorpion I take it.

Seems there was this young otter getting ready to go in the river, a scorpion says" take me across please."
The otter says" I can't if you sting me I'll die," but the scorpion says" I can't swim , so if I sting you I too would die."
Finally the otter gives in the scorpion gets on the otter's back , and right in the middle of the river the scorpion stings the otter.
The otter says, "why did you do that now we both will die."
The scorpion replied, "I couldn't help myself it's in my nature"

Perhaps before the nature of man can be changed one should not trust so much?eace

 

[presluc]

You cannot have peace with or within a country where civilization has not yet visited.

America and the coalition's mistake was not exiting Afghanistan in 2002 directly after the Taliban and Al Qaida were routed. I very much respect George Bush, but one of the biggest mistakes of his Presidency was not sticking to his political philosophy that America should not be in the business of nation building. A quick strike for retribution followed by a quick exit would have saved many American and coalition lives and those of innocent Afghanis - it would have been less costly if America had gone into Afghanistan every second year, as necessary, with overwhelming airstrikes than to set up shop in the country for 12 years. Obama, for political reasons, doubled down on stupid when he entered office simply to promote the Democrat meme that Afghanistan was the "just" war.

Agreed IT'S KINDA LIKE SAYING MY HOUSE IS NOT IN ORDER BUT i'M GOING TO TELL YOU HOW TO RUN YOURS.. BAD IDEA..eace

 

[presluc]

Re: Everybody wants peace

Don't call me sir, I worked for a living.

Just trying to be polite.

What, has political correctness found it's way to good manners now?eace

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Everybody wants peace

I have very mixed opinions about this.

For one, I do want peace. I also want our POWs to come home.

However, when the enemy does not even take prisoners most times, and allows no International inspections or visits to those Prisoners, my confidence in them as a "civil enemy" rapidly declines.

Personally, I do not trust the Taliban any further then I could throw an M1 tank. Much like North Vietnam and Nazi Germany, I think they would make any agreement they thought would get them something, then turn right around and break it without qualm. And the Koran gives multime quotes specifically about it being allowable to break treaties with "Infidels".

Never mind that according to the Koran Christians are not Infidels, that does not matter. We are a secular nation, therefore that would apply if they wanted to use that as a justification later on.

To paraphrase President Reagan, I am all for this going on, but hope that those on our side remember "Trust, but verify".

 

[MMC]

I can only agree with your post my friend.

It is sad but true when the people of the world becomes at peace with who they are and what they have , perhaps then we can have peace.
It will not be in my lifetime, but I can only hope that by some miracle or fate or whatever, one day there will be no more war no more young people sent to fight and die.

As for the US and the Taliban your statement says it all "Nothing good ....ever comes from sleeping in bed with a snake or a serpent.

You've heard the story of the otter and the scorpion I take it.

Seems there was this young otter getting ready to go in the river, a scorpion says" take me across please."
The otter says" I can't if you sting me I'll die," but the scorpion says" I can't swim , so if I sting you I too would die."
Finally the otter gives in the scorpion gets on the otter's back , and right in the middle of the river the scorpion stings the otter.
The otter says, "why did you do that now we both will die."
The scorpion replied, "I couldn't help myself it's in my nature"

Perhaps before the nature of man can be changed one should not trust so much?eace

Heya Presluc.....I just don't see it changing, ever. Man from the beginning has warred. With or without any forms of Government. Moreover there is always some warring going on. Course I also think you can't Have War without Peace and vice versa.

 

[fmw]

Re: Everybody wants peace

No need to talk to the Taliban. We simply need to get out of Dodge and let them have Afganistan. Afghanistan certainly hasn't done us much good other than keeping heroine addicts from sliding into withdrawal.

 

[presluc]

Re: Everybody wants peace

I have very mixed opinions about this.

For one, I do want peace. I also want our POWs to come home.

However, when the enemy does not even take prisoners most times, and allows no International inspections or visits to those Prisoners, my confidence in them as a "civil enemy" rapidly declines.

Personally, I do not trust the Taliban any further then I could throw an M1 tank. Much like North Vietnam and Nazi Germany, I think they would make any agreement they thought would get them something, then turn right around and break it without qualm. And the Koran gives multime quotes specifically about it being allowable to break treaties with "Infidels".

Never mind that according to the Koran Christians are not Infidels, that does not matter. We are a secular nation, therefore that would apply if they wanted to use that as a justification later on.

To paraphrase President Reagan, I am all for this going on, but hope that those on our side remember "Trust, but verify".

Your words ring true. my trust for the Taliban and any Terrorist organization is below par.
As a vet I too want the POW'S to come home but I keep asking at what cost and will they keep their word.

As far as Presidents go I was particular fond of 3

Truman, who's words were "THE BUCK STOPS HERE" RESPONSIBILITY
IKE, a working President who led America into prosperity LOVE OF COUNTRY
Kennedy, "the torch is passed to a new generation" "ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU ; ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY" LOOKING TO THE FUTURE OF AMERICA.eace

 

[presluc]

Heya Presluc.....I just don't see it changing, ever. Man from the beginning has warred. With or without any forms of Government. Moreover there is always some warring going on. Course I also think you can't Have War without Peace and vice versa.

Ah perhaps you are right my friend I was born 2 days before they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima seems like every decade since somebody has been at war with somebody else I was drafted and went to Vietnam myself.

Perhaps if people knew what War was really like they might be a little less likely to wage it.
It's messy, it's Chaos , it's confusion, IT'S DEATH; Sherman of the Civil war said it best "WAR IS HELL"

Perhaps I'm just an Idealistic dreamer perhaps war on earth will never end until we . as humans kill each other off.
However, without hope for a better future , without hope for world peace what does that leave you thinking of the future?eace

 

[presluc]

Re: Everybody wants peace

No need to talk to the Taliban. We simply need to get out of Dodge and let them have Afganistan. Afghanistan certainly hasn't done us much good other than keeping heroine addicts from sliding into withdrawal.

I can not but agree, and if they should attack America again, just send some ordinance and after that send some bulldozers to flatten out what's left.eace

 

[MMC]

Ah perhaps you are right my friend I was born 2 days before they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima seems like every decade since somebody has been at war with somebody else I was drafted and went to Vietnam myself.

Perhaps if people knew what War was really like they might be a little less likely to wage it.
It's messy, it's Chaos , it's confusion, IT'S DEATH; Sherman of the Civil war said it best "WAR IS HELL"

Perhaps I'm just an Idealistic dreamer perhaps war on earth will never end until we . as humans kill each other off.
However, without hope for a better future , without hope for world peace what does that leave you thinking of the future?eace

Yes.....I would agree. No reason to give up Hope. Like you I was in NAM. I volunteered.

Like I stated earlier.....I try to start with myself. If I can be at peace with myself. Then I can look to take the next step with my own family and friends. Then on to those outside the Circle of Blood of Family and Friends.

 

[presluc]

Yes.....I would agree. No reason to give up Hope. Like you I was in NAM. I volunteered.

Like I stated earlier.....I try to start with myself. If I can be at peace with myself. Then I can look to take the next step with my own family and friends. Then on to those outside the Circle of Blood of Family and Friends.

I handle it a bit different, I never have nor would I tell a person what to think or what to do I merely provide options and suggestions.

However either way it's a difficult practice to bring peace to others with so many differences; white supremist /black, atheist / religion, the different kinds of religion Jewish/Muslim ,protestant/ Catholic Right/Left political parties rich/ poor that's just the tip of the iceberg.eace

 

[presluc]

This may be a bit off topic but the OP is a close friend of mine.lol

I was going to start another thread on this subject but I think the subjects are related.

It is said in America today that some people pay other people "protection money" theses people they pay are not law enforcement but just people , they collect this "protection money by installing a little thing called FEAR.
This is called Extortion and according to the American Justice System is illegal and against American law.

Question; This foreign aid going to other nations ,is it to help other nations or is it "protection money" Extortion?


Cause, I gotta tell ya some of these nations that are getting foreign aid from America doesn't seem to like America burning American flags and celebrating after America gets attacked or flying foreign flags at a protest on American soil is no way to show gratitude for foreign aid coming from America.

If in fact it is Extortion "protection money" America is in fact breaking it's own laws.
What is the opinion of the posters on this thread?eace

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Everybody wants peace

No need to talk to the Taliban. We simply need to get out of Dodge and let them have Afganistan. Afghanistan certainly hasn't done us much good other than keeping heroine addicts from sliding into withdrawal.

However, that is much of what caused this mess in the first place.

Much as how I place the blame on Vietnam on the Truman administration's refusal to tell France to back off and allow their former colonies to remain independent, I blame at least part of what happened in Afghanistan on the United States.

We used them as a weapon (and they used us as well) against the Soviets. But then when they left we did also. And that led to over a decade of civil war and the rise of it's use as a terrorist haven. And if we just pull out and leave, we will be abandoning them yet again, leaving them to another decade or more of civil war and bloodshed.

All to often the answer is to "run away" when things get tough. And looking at just 2 places we have been involved in over the last 30 years, we can see that is often the wrong answer.

We left Lebanon in 1984 after a bomb blast killed our Marines and Sailors. And that nation has been a mess ever since, almost constant civil war and invasions by their neighbors, and no end in sight.

We ran away from Somalia 20 years ago, and it is still an ugly mess. Warlords running the country, mass starvations, and piracy plaguing that region of the world.

So when we run away, the only country that actually benefits is us. We ourselves get better, but generally everything else go straight to hell. And I am not the type of person who would willingly walk away from somebody else in need, simply because it inconviences myself.

And I never could understand those that would look at such instances and simply shrug and say it is not their problem.

 

[presluc]

Re: Everybody wants peace

However, that is much of what caused this mess in the first place.

Much as how I place the blame on Vietnam on the Truman administration's refusal to tell France to back off and allow their former colonies to remain independent, I blame at least part of what happened in Afghanistan on the United States.

We used them as a weapon (and they used us as well) against the Soviets. But then when they left we did also. And that led to over a decade of civil war and the rise of it's use as a terrorist haven. And if we just pull out and leave, we will be abandoning them yet again, leaving them to another decade or more of civil war and bloodshed.

All to often the answer is to "run away" when things get tough. And looking at just 2 places we have been involved in over the last 30 years, we can see that is often the wrong answer.

We left Lebanon in 1984 after a bomb blast killed our Marines and Sailors. And that nation has been a mess ever since, almost constant civil war and invasions by their neighbors, and no end in sight.

We ran away from Somalia 20 years ago, and it is still an ugly mess. Warlords running the country, mass starvations, and piracy plaguing that region of the world.

So when we run away, the only country that actually benefits is us. We ourselves get better, but generally everything else go straight to hell. And I am not the type of person who would willingly walk away from somebody else in need, simply because it inconviences myself.

And I never could understand those that would look at such instances and simply shrug and say it is not their problem.

The only nation hat helped America during the American revolution was France
The War of 1812 nobody came running to America to help.
The SPANISH AMERICAN WAR NOBODY
THE CIVIL WAR NOBODY
the first world war America helped Europe
The Depression NOBODY WAS SENDING AID TO AMERICA
The second world war America was attacked and retailated also helping more than one nation in the process.
The Korean war draw
The Vietnam war loss

As far as the middle east America has one ally they can count on , that has supported America since they became a nation ISRAEL.

Yet America although has been battered and bruised still stands.

My point is no nation held our hand coming up , true America has made mistakes but we still stand ,America a democracy of WE THE PEOPLE still stands from 13 colonies, to a divided country, to on the verge of bankrupsy ,to two world wars, Cold War ,terrorist attacks America still stands.
If America can do this with a melting pot of population with people from all over the world,
WHY CAN'T OTHER NATIONS DO IT ON THEIR OWN.eace

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Everybody wants peace

The only nation hat helped America during the American revolution was France

And Spain. And the Netherlands. And Russia. And the League of Armed Neutrality. And Morocco. France gave us the most support, but it was not the only nation to help. In addition help came from Germany and Austria, as any NCO can tell you, with individuals like Baron Friedrich Wilhelm August Heinrich Ferdinand von Steuben.

In the War of 1812, most of the world was already involved in a conflict at that time. Just be glad they did not take our Declaration of War against the UK as a declaration against the rest of the League that was fighting Napoleon and go after us as well.

Several nations (including France and the UK) did get involved in the Civil War, just on the other side. But our Civil War is somewhat unique, being largely regional and restrained, primarily involving the organized militaries of each faction, and not bloody wholesale slaughter of civilians on both sides. Most people have no idea how lucky the US was in that, we really did have what was probably one of the most "civil" Civil Wars. If that had not been the case, I think European nations would have jumped in, simply to help carve up the country amongst themselves.

In WWII, many nations helped us as well. England with ports, bases and staging areas as well as assistance. Australia with the same thing, we could not have fought most of the battles in the Pacific without Australia.

And Korea was a UN operation, with nations from all over the world fighting alongside us. The same with Vietnam, Gulf War I and II, Afghanistan, etc.

We could not have done any of those wars in the last century by ourselves. And anybody who thinks otherwise has no concept of what military actions involve.

 

[fmw]

Re: Everybody wants peace

So when we run away, the only country that actually benefits is us. We ourselves get better, but generally everything else go straight to hell. And I am not the type of person who would willingly walk away from somebody else in need, simply because it inconviences myself.

Absolutely. We have to stop acting as the planetary police force. We can't afford it and these backwater countries aren't worth the lives of our service people. You want to go fight in Afghanista? Knock your socks off.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Everybody wants peace

Absolutely. We have to stop acting as the planetary police force. We can't afford it and these backwater countries aren't worth the lives of our service people. You want to go fight in Afghanista? Knock your socks off.

Dude, I would much rather be fighting them over there, instead of trying to respond when they send over another group of "not so smart bombs" to conduct their attacks here in the US.And as an FYI, I am in the military. Sitting here in my ACUs during a break. So don't even try to lay that kind of "guilt trip" against me. I have raised my hand now 5 times in order to "take the King's shilling" (I am obviously not a Brit, but I always loved that phrase).

 

[fmw]

Re: Everybody wants peace

Dude, I would much rather be fighting them over there, instead of trying to respond when they send over another group of "not so smart bombs" to conduct their attacks here in the US.And as an FYI, I am in the military. Sitting here in my ACUs during a break. So don't even try to lay that kind of "guilt trip" against me. I have raised my hand now 5 times in order to "take the King's shilling" (I am obviously not a Brit, but I always loved that phrase).

I'm a veteran myself. Do you not think that our presence in the near east motivates even more not so smart bombs? I sure do.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Everybody wants peace

I'm a veteran myself. Do you not think that our presence in the near east motivates even more not so smart bombs? I sure do.

This largely does not matter, these groups work with their own logic and mindset. We have even had attacks because to some we have not gotten ourselves involved enough.

We even got attacked in 1983 when we were in Lebanon enforcing the Cease Fire to keep Israel and Christian Militia groups from attacking Muslims. But still it was an Islamic group that attacked us. These groups thrive on the noteriety of their attacks. Do something they do not like, they will attack you. Do not do something they like, they will attack you. This is really a catch-22 situation, and leaving is absolutely no guarantee that any attacks would stop.

It should quickly become obvious in forums like this that there is absolutely no reason with radical fundamentalists. Their mindset and world view is so far outside of the norm that they literally live in their own little worlds. And to them any action is justified through this mindset. Twice attacking the same office building complex in the hopes of destroying them, trying to blow up a US airport, shooting an old man in a wheelchair and throwing him over the back of a ship, or any of the other incidents generally make no sense other then to those involved, or their apologists.

To me, you might as well be saying that if the wife did not burn dinner, the beatings would stop. So instead of punishing the beater, you simply encourage the wife to not burn dinner.

And as an aside, how many nations have the Philippines been involved with militarily? Well, none that I can think of either, yet they have also been an almost constant target of attacks by Islamic groups. They will attack anybody they want, for any reason, because they twise The Book to their cause.