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Even when I was an atheist, I was still pro-life.

Peter King said:
of course he has no rights pre-birth, it is not his body and a woman has body integrity even during her pregnancy.
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In fact the father did play a very important role in creating the life and there should be a way whereby he can be involved in the issue. If he has to pay money for upkeep for the next 18 years. Either the woman is completely responsible or she isn't.
 
eman926 said:
I also thought homosexuality was unnatural as well. I even believed in capitalist things like a flat tax. I could keep going on. So don’t assume that all atheists are leftists. Look at Penn Jillette, for crying out loud. But since this is an abortion section, like I said, you don’t have to be “religious” to be pro-life.


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Is there a point you are trying to make here? You say "even when I was an atheist I was pro-life" like that is the realm of theism. Theists should be pro-death....I mean, c'mon, eternity in some blissful (though imaginary) place? Why not rush forward to the "promised land"?
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
In fact the father did play a very important role in creating the life and there should be a way whereby he can be involved in the issue. If he has to pay money for upkeep for the next 18 years. Either the woman is completely responsible or she isn't.
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You mean he had an orgasm and donated some sperm? That is it if you are totally honest when it comes to the father's participation in the pregnancy process. ALL the work, the morning sickness, the carrying of the child, the potential health risk, the birth are all down to the woman.

And the woman is only responsible for the pregnancy and her decision to either keep the pregnancy going or having an abortion, after birth the man has to pay for the child he put on this planet.
 
Peter King said:
You mean he had an orgasm and donated some sperm? That is it if you are totally honest when it comes to the father's participation in the pregnancy process. ALL the work, the morning sickness, the carrying of the child, the potential health risk, the birth are all down to the woman.

And the woman is only responsible for the pregnancy and her decision to either keep the pregnancy going or having an abortion, after birth the man has to pay for the child he put on this planet.
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So the man only donated some sperm or he put a child on the planet. One is a not a big deal and the other is. In fact he was putting a child on the planet the moment he had that orgasm. Only the woman, or some mad person, can interfere with that process. And of course there are many cases where the woman claims to have used birth control but has not.


If the woman is responsible for her body, as is being argued, then she should also be responsible for raising the child, aborting it, or putting it up for adoption. She can't then justify holding the man responsible for her body and the decisions she makes and, in fact, men are ever more shirking their responsibilities as men and not having a say in the process is likely contributing to that..
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
So the man only donated some sperm or he put a child on the planet. One is a not a big deal and the other is. In fact he was putting a child on the planet the moment he had that orgasm. Only the woman, or some mad person, can interfere with that process. And of course there are many cases where the woman claims to have used birth control but has not.


If the woman is responsible for her body, as is being argued, then she should also be responsible for raising the child, aborting it, or putting it up for adoption. She can't then justify holding the man responsible for her body and the decisions she makes and, in fact, men are ever more shirking their responsibilities as men and not having a say in the process is likely contributing to that..
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You think he does more during the pregnancy? All the heavy lifting during the pregnancy is 100% on the woman. And after the donation of his sperm, he has to accept that he is in the "does she have it or does she not" pregnancy lottery. That is the problem of the guy who did not use protection IMO. And you do know that birth control is available for men too? You cannot rely on a woman's assertion of having used birth control because even with birth control pills it is not 100% safe. That in combination with a condom does make the chances of pregnancy go down massively.

And you do know that the woman usually ends up being responsible for raising the child but the child deserves some financial stability and if the man does not want to participate in the raising of the child, well then he has to pay for the woman to do that for him. Because at that moment it is not about the woman but about the child. How difficult is that to understand? As soon as the child is on the planet, he has to pay for having fathered that child.
 
Peter King said:
You think he does more during the pregnancy? All the heavy lifting during the pregnancy is 100% on the woman. And after the donation of his sperm, he has to accept that he is in the "does she have it or does she not" pregnancy lottery. That is the problem of the guy who did not use protection IMO. And you do know that birth control is available for men too? You cannot rely on a woman's assertion of having used birth control because even with birth control pills it is not 100% safe. That in combination with a condom does make the chances of pregnancy go down massively.

And you do know that the woman usually ends up being responsible for raising the child but the child deserves some financial stability and if the man does not want to participate in the raising of the child, well then he has to pay for the woman to do that for him. Because at that moment it is not about the woman but about the child. How difficult is that to understand? As soon as the child is on the planet, he has to pay for having fathered that child.
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If the woman is responsible for her body she does not have sex without protection. It's her body and her responsibility, remember?

You're looking at a man as a 'sperm donor' and not as a father and a baby as a fetus or a collection of cells rather than a human being. This distorts the significance of birth as well as the miracle. If a woman is genuinely responsible for her body she must then assume 100% of that responsibility and not have it both ways..Otherwise she is only partly responsible.
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
If the woman is responsible for her body she does not have sex without protection. It's her body and her responsibility, remember?

You're looking at a man as a 'sperm donor' and not as a father and a baby as a fetus or a collection of cells rather than a human being. This distorts the significance of birth as well as the miracle. If a woman is genuinely responsible for her body she must then assume 100% of that responsibility and not have it both ways..Otherwise she is only partly responsible.
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A woman has 2 options, use birth control or have an abortion. It is not she who ejaculates into her womb so to now make this the woman's problem is the typical male right wing nonsense one often hears.

Fact is fact, if a man fathers a child, he is financially responsible for that, if men do not like that, well tough luck. Better use a condom next time.
 
Peter King said:
A woman has 2 options, use birth control or have an abortion. It is not she who ejaculates into her womb so to now make this the woman's problem is the typical male right wing nonsense one often hears.

Fact is fact, if a man fathers a child, he is financially responsible for that, if men do not like that, well tough luck. Better use a condom next time.
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"Right wing"? So much for intelligent debate.
 
eman926 said:
Still isn’t her body, so that’s an excuse.


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so, when she has a miscarriage is that God giving her an abortion? btw, are you pro life or anti abortion? If you are pro life I assume that means you are anti death penalty, against children in cages, against the 2nd amendment because that means you might take a life and are for assisting those children who were born because abortion was not available...until they become adults.
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
"Right wing"? So much for intelligent debate.
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I don't know if you are "right wing" but it does not take away that your comment is very prevalent in right wing male posters.

And intelligent debate? If you claim women have to take 100% of the responsibility and men not so much, well then the intelligence of the debate is somewhat debatable ;)
 
Rogue Valley said:
And you don't have to be a "leftist" to support a woman having control of her own body.
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If only it were her own body. Even science does not believe that lie. She had "control" over her "own body" until she became pregnant. Then it became two bodies in one "shell".
 
Peter King said:
I don't know if you are "right wing" but it does not take away that your comment is very prevalent in right wing male posters.

And intelligent debate? If you claim women have to take 100% of the responsibility and men not so much, well then the intelligence of the debate is somewhat debatable ;)
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The argument is that women have 100% control and responsibility for their bodies and that the fathers have none, until the woman decides he does. That makes little sense and that men are walking away from this system is evident in the number of single mothers on the welfare system and the number of children growing up without fathers in the home.. You're looking at things the way you believe they should be rather than the way they are.
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
The argument is that women have 100% control and responsibility for their bodies and that the fathers have none, until the woman decides he does. That makes little sense and that men are walking away from this system is evident in the number of single mothers on the welfare system and the number of children growing up without fathers in the home.. You're looking at things the way you believe they should be rather than the way they are.
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That again is nonsense. The portion women have control about is the decisions having to do with her BODY integrity DURING the pregnancy, not before the pregnancy and not after the pregnancy. And I m not looking at thins the way I believe they should be but at the way it NOW is.

Men are not walking away from a system, they are idiotic morons who try to walk away from their responsibility, both financial and as a co-parent because they are jackasses who have no issue knocking a woman up but then when it comes to their responsibility they are not doing what they are supposed to do.

And the single mother problem is more of a US problem as child care is costly, men are not financially living up to their responsibility.
 
Old Trapper said:
Seems like that is the claim of women, not so much the man.
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They have when it comes to their choice about remaining pregnant or having an abortion. She does not get pregnant on her own now does she.
 
Peter King said:
They have when it comes to their choice about remaining pregnant or having an abortion. She does not get pregnant on her own now does she.
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Nope. And thankfully, only she gets to make the decision whether or not to stay pregnant, and not the man.
 
Peter King said:
That again is nonsense. The portion women have control about is the decisions having to do with her BODY integrity DURING the pregnancy, not before the pregnancy and not after the pregnancy. And I m not looking at thins the way I believe they should be but at the way it NOW is.

Men are not walking away from a system, they are idiotic morons who try to walk away from their responsibility, both financial and as a co-parent because they are jackasses who have no issue knocking a woman up but then when it comes to their responsibility they are not doing what they are supposed to do.

And the single mother problem is more of a US problem as child care is costly, men are not financially living up to their responsibility.
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If a woman gets pregnant she has 3 choices

1. Have the child
2. Abortion
3. Adoption


If she says I don't want to be a parent she should have the right to 2 or 3.

If the father does not want to be a parent he has no choices. He should at least be able to choose to not he a parent and that means financially too.
 
OceanBlues1 said:
It still IS her own body, pregnant or not. That means the woman still has the right to remove something she doesn't want in it.
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Exactly what part of "two bodies" don't you understand? Or is it the part about accepting responsibility that bothers you? The babe in the womb has its own DNA, heart, blood supply, etc. The "mother" is there to protect the child, and to nourish it during its growing process, nothing else. It is NOT her property to be disposed of as she wishes.
 
Peter King said:
They have when it comes to their choice about remaining pregnant or having an abortion. She does not get pregnant on her own now does she.
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Does she, or does she not, make the decision ON HER OWN to lay down, spread her legs, and allow the man to penetrate her with his penis? Or, are all cases of having sex equal to rape?
 
Old Trapper said:
Exactly what part of "two bodies" don't you understand? Or is it the part about accepting responsibility that bothers you? The babe in the womb has its own DNA, heart, blood supply, etc. The "mother" is there to protect the child, and to nourish it during its growing process, nothing else. It is NOT her property to be disposed of as she wishes.
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How many times has YOUR body been ravaged by pregnancy and childbirth?
 
Old Trapper said:
Does she, or does she not, make the decision ON HER OWN to lay down, spread her legs, and allow the man to penetrate her with his penis? Or, are all cases of having sex equal to rape?
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And here we have it - bitterness toward women who have sex.
 
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