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Even when I was an atheist, I was still pro-life.

Lursa

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Well, pretty sure that she's making the best decision that she can...and that is usually based on finances. OTOH, if that's the case and you'd prefer she have it, instead of a free or subsidized one, here's what you will be choosing:

1600820664512.png

Seems like it's a pretty responsible choice to me...saving the taxpayers all that $. Do you agree? If not, what kind of responsibility are you thinking of?

Edit: this was my first time cutting and pasting directly from my OneNote...if you would like me to post the actual clickable links, I'm happy to do so. Just let me know.
 

Lursa

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Duplicate, having trouble with cutting and pasting.

Apologies
 

OceanBlues1

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If a woman has control over her own body she should be responsible for it. That would include not getting pregnant if she doesn't want to be and then expect others to bail her out of a problem she created.
Actually, a woman is being responsible for her own body by having an abortion when she knows she doesn't want to be pregnant or have a baby. Whether or not you agree with or approve of her choice is irrelevant.
 

Fred C Dobbs II

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Actually, a woman is being responsible for her own body by having an abortion when she knows she doesn't want to be pregnant or have a baby. Whether or not you agree with or approve of her choice is irrelevant.
If she is being responsible then she and the father should pay for it , should he choose to..
 

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If she is being responsible then she and the father should pay for it , should he choose to..
1. if she decides to carry the baby to full term, there is not a choice for the father, he has to pay as it is his child too
2. if she is responsible she will decide on her own, it is her body and her choice, the father has no say in the continuation of the pregnancy or the aborted of said pregnance.

Because last time it was a woman's body during the pregnancy and not the man's body.
 

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Pre-born, is that like pre-cooked or pre-washed?
Nah, more like "life being pre-death".

A person is born or not (even a 33 week old fetus can be delivered as a still birth or not capable of sustaining life. Just like a person is alive or dead.
 

Scrabaholic

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Nah, more like "life being pre-death".

A person is born or not (even a 33 week old fetus can be delivered as a still birth or not capable of sustaining life. Just like a person is alive or dead.

In my country, persons are born. Personhood is gone once death occurs.
 

Fred C Dobbs II

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1. if she decides to carry the baby to full term, there is not a choice for the father, he has to pay as it is his child too
2. if she is responsible she will decide on her own, it is her body and her choice, the father has no say in the continuation of the pregnancy or the aborted of said pregnance.

Because last time it was a woman's body during the pregnancy and not the man's body.
Full term, perhaps, but what about abortion? If it's genuinely her body and her choice an abortion is her responsibility. Otherwise she cannot claim she is responsible for her body. I'm not necessarily against abortion but cannot ignore a foolish reason.
 

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If she is being responsible then she and the father should pay for it , should he choose to..
An early 1st trimester abortion costs between $300 and $400 and the couple usually pay for it themselves. 75% of couples that seek abortion live at or below the poverty line and some may need help from the several different private funding organizations set up to pay part of the cost. Many private abortion clinics set up a payment plan for the couple and also help them find supplemental funding. Medicaid will pay for an abortion due to rape, incest, or risk of death, if the woman has medicaid.

For reasons not clear to most people anti-abortion males assign a whole world of hateful characteristics to women and reserve the most hateful for women who act responsibly and abort a fetus they know they and their family cannot take care of in a safe, loving, stable environment that every child needs in order to grow up into a contributing adult.
 

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In my country, persons are born. Personhood is gone once death occurs.
as it should, except in crimes against the pregnant woman but then it is not murder but feticide, which needs to be punished also very seriously. I read a story a few days ago where a man cut out the fetus from his partners stomach to find out the gender of the fetus, killing the fetus. Such crimes must be punished with very long prison sentences.
 

Fred C Dobbs II

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1. if she decides to carry the baby to full term, there is not a choice for the father, he has to pay as it is his child too
2. if she is responsible she will decide on her own, it is her body and her choice, the father has no say in the continuation of the pregnancy or the aborted of said pregnance.

Because last time it was a woman's body during the pregnancy and not the man's body.
So the father has no rights whatsoever. If the woman decides to have an abortion he cannot stop it. And if she decides to keep it he must pay for 18 years or whatever the law says. I don't know what the answer might be but there seems to be a flaw in that argument.
 

Lursa

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And if she is genuinely responsible for her own body she should pay for it.
Well, pretty sure that she's making the best decision that she can...and that is usually based on finances. OTOH, if that's the case and you'd prefer she have it, instead of a free or subsidized one, here's what you will be choosing:

View attachment 67296095

Seems like it's a pretty responsible choice to me...saving the taxpayers all that $. Do you agree? If not, what kind of responsibility are you thinking of?

Edit: this was my first time cutting and pasting directly from my OneNote...if you would like me to post the actual clickable links, I'm happy to do so. Just let me know.
Anything else here? Isnt it a responsible decision? If not, why not?
 

Fred C Dobbs II

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Anything else here? Isnt it a responsible decision? If not, why not?
Yes, the government would save a lot of money if nobody had children but then who would pay the taxes the government needs to function, as well as those depending on social security, etc.?
 

Lursa

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Yes, the government would save a lot of money if nobody had children but then who would pay the taxes the government needs to function, as well as those depending on social security, etc.?
Where did you come up with "nobody having children?" Nice dodge.

The conversation is about your claim about women not being responsible "with their bodies." And my post showed that if you cannot afford a kid, or cant take care of your other obligations and commitments like to family, employer, community, society, etc., then an abortion is very responsible when birth control fails....which happens, as discussed. None is 100%.

Cant it be a responsible decision?


Btw, there are millions of immigrants who would love to come here legally and work and pay taxes.
 

OceanBlues1

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If she is being responsible then she and the father should pay for it , should he choose to..
Um...one or both parties do pay for it. Last time I checked, abortions aren't done for free.
 

OceanBlues1

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Full term, perhaps, but what about abortion? If it's genuinely her body and her choice an abortion is her responsibility.
And if the woman pays the full cost of an abortion, or even half (with the guy paying half too), she is being responsible for her body.
 

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as it should, except in crimes against the pregnant woman but then it is not murder but feticide, which needs to be punished also very seriously. I read a story a few days ago where a man cut out the fetus from his partners stomach to find out the gender of the fetus, killing the fetus. Such crimes must be punished with very long prison sentences.
Yah. See https://nypost.com/2020/09/21/man-sliced-open-pregnant-wifes-belly-to-check-babys-gender-report/ - Although I don't think of the Post as a reliable source. Still, she was his wife, & the paper does say he sliced open her belly. He did not, apparently, cut the fetus from her - as the fetus (& woman) survived. & the fetus wasn't in her belly, of course. This was in the sticks in India, where farming communities are evidently very hard pressed, economically.

But yes, opening her up with a sickle (!) counts as assault with a deadly weapon in the US, I don't know how he'll be charged in India. The story reports he's in jail.
 

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as it should, except in crimes against the pregnant woman but then it is not murder but feticide, which needs to be punished also very seriously. I read a story a few days ago where a man cut out the fetus from his partners stomach to find out the gender of the fetus, killing the fetus. Such crimes must be punished with very long prison sentences.

I agree. When someone does that, they are taking away the woman's choice.
 

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So the father has no rights whatsoever. If the woman decides to have an abortion he cannot stop it. And if she decides to keep it he must pay for 18 years or whatever the law says. I don't know what the answer might be but there seems to be a flaw in that argument.
of course he has no rights pre-birth, it is not his body and a woman has body integrity even during her pregnancy.
 

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I also thought homosexuality was unnatural as well. I even believed in capitalist things like a flat tax. I could keep going on. So don’t assume that all atheists are leftists. Look at Penn Jillette, for crying out loud. But since this is an abortion section, like I said, you don’t have to be “religious” to be pro-life.


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Even when you were an Atheist? You mean you decided to become more stupid instead? Which cult did you join.
 

Fred C Dobbs II

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Where did you come up with "nobody having children?" Nice dodge.

The conversation is about your claim about women not being responsible "with their bodies." And my post showed that if you cannot afford a kid, or cant take care of your other obligations and commitments like to family, employer, community, society, etc., then an abortion is very responsible when birth control fails....which happens, as discussed. None is 100%.

Cant it be a responsible decision?


Btw, there are millions of immigrants who would love to come here legally and work and pay taxes.
I understand abortion is a big decision and should be legal. However the argument that women are in charge of their bodies is not one of the better arguments and not one that you used here. I'm saying that in many cases women are irresponsible with their bodies, chose bad mates or lovers, and so on.

There are many forms of birth control, and understand none of them are foolproof. However there seems to be more abortions than faulty birth control methods. If women are genuinely responsible for their bodies they should behave responsibly, or do what they can to see the baby to term, notwithstanding the reasons you listed above.
 

Fred C Dobbs II

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Actually, a woman is being responsible for her own body by having an abortion when she knows she doesn't want to be pregnant or have a baby. Whether or not you agree with or approve of her choice is irrelevant.
Of course. And whether this woman agrees with me or not is also irrelevant.
 
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