Europe's Largest Nuclear Power Plant on Fire

[slick]

I read that it is the perimeter buildings burning, not the reactor plant itself. I hope this is true and that the fires don't spread to the reactor buildings. How stupid can the Russian artillery officers be? Or was this ordered from on high.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

That's what they are all saying now on cable tv. False alarm. Hannity kept on putting on nuclear experts
until he found one who partially agreed with him that the plant was on fire. So much fake news about this:
The Ukraine leader was yapping what we all must do now;
He has come up with another catastrophically stupid idea;
Zelensky has repeatedly urged members of the NATO alliance to close the skies.
This appears to be a request for a “no-fly zone”. Now that no one listened to that
he wants a “no-fly zone” only around the nuclear power plant that he insists is part
of Russia's plans to create another Chernobyl

A no-fly zone in Ukraine would be an American declaration of war on Russia — the first major conflict
between the two nations that, put together, control 90 percent of the world’s nuclear weapons.
This guy wants the whole world to go to war. A WWIII will include nukes.

Discussions lately about Putin going bananas, maybe this Zelensky should be assigned the same attributes!

Joe Biden, thankfully, appears to have learned the lessons of the Cold War. He has very clearly ruled out any kind of direct intervention in Ukraine; there is no evidence that his mind will change.

 

[Felis Leo]

I read that it is the perimeter buildings burning, not the reactor plant itself. I hope this is true and that the fires don't spread to the reactor buildings. How stupid can the Russian artillery officers be? Or was this ordered from on high.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Those morons should not even be firing in the general direction of the facility.

 

[Surrealistik]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-04/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-updates/100880512

It gets better and better... Europe's largest nuclear power plant is now on fire after a Russian attack. The nuclear plant at Enerhodar, located in the Southern Ukraine, is currently burning and firefighters can't respond due to Russian gunfire. Scientists warn that if it explodes, it could potentially be ten times worse than the Chernobyl disaster.

Outside of this wholly unjustified invasion, there is no higher cause for containing Russia with NATO on every last one of its European borders. Putin's Russia is replete with incompetence or madness; either way, it is a dangerous, rabid animal that can and must be caged.

 

[Evilroddy]

According to Jennifer Grantholm, Ukrraine has the plant has been shut down. I hope to god so.

Parrish:

From what I have read, one of the six reactors at the plant is still online and generating electrical power.

Edit: Ukrainian nuclear plant staff are now shutting down this last of six reactors.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Cordelier]

Outside of this wholly unjustified invasion, there is no higher cause for containing Russia with NATO on every last one of its European borders. Putin's Russia is replete with incompetence or madness; either way, it is a dangerous, rabid animal that can and must be caged.

I agree... but practically speaking, we can't expect to do that overnight. To even try to do so would be cutting off our noses to spite our faces. We need to accept the fact that this is going to be a marathon, not a sprint.

 

[Surrealistik]

I agree... but practically speaking, we can't expect to do that overnight. To even try to do so would be cutting off our noses to spite our faces. We need to accept the fact that this is going to be a marathon, not a sprint.

Well of course; it's too soon. What I mean is that the goal and ultimate trajectory should at this point be obvious and inevitable, without hesitation or dispute; instead of gaining concessions, this reckless foray of Putin's should cost him everything, especially in light of this absolutely insane attack, including NATO entrenchment at every one of those borders, now so richly deserved.

 

[Cordelier]

Well of course; it's too soon. What I mean is that the goal and ultimate trajectory should at this point be obvious and inevitable, without hesitation or dispute; instead of gaining concessions, this reckless foray of Putin's should cost him everything, especially in light of this absolutely insane attack, including NATO entrenchment at every one of those borders, now so richly deserved.

I agree with you... but let's face facts - that's all rhetoric. I want to deal more with reality. Do you figure Canada has the stomach to try and reduce Natural Gas consumption and divert more of it's production towards exports to Europe in order to make up for taking Russian exports off the market?

Here's the situation, as far as Russia, the US and Canada are concerned - as net exporters - compared to some of our net exporting allies in Europe. Taken from the USEIA website, 2019 estimates, in trillions of cubic feet (tcf) of Dry Natural Gas:

Area​	Reserves (tcf)​	Production (tcf)​	Consumption (tcf)​	Exports (tcf)​	Imports (tcf)​	Net Exports (tcf)​
Russia​	1688.2​	23.9​	16.9​	9.1​	0.6​	8.5​
United States​	474.8​	33.9​	31.1​	4.7​	2.7​	2.0​
Canada​	73.9​	6.3​	4.4​	2.7​	1.0​	1.7​
Norway​	61.1​	4.1​	0.1​	3.9​	0.0​	3.9​
Germany​	1.2​	0.2​	3.5​	0.0​	3.4​	-3.4​
United Kingdom​	6.4​	1.4​	2.8​	0.3​	1.7​	-1.4​
France​	0.3​	0.0​	1.5​	0.4​	1.9​	-1.5​
Italy​	1.6​	0.2​	2.6​	0.0​	2.5​	-2.5​
Spain​	0.1​	0.0​	1.3​	0.0​	1.3​	-1.3​
Rest of World​	4869.3​	72.9​	78.4​	22.5​	28.6​	-6.1​

If we take the Russian net exports off the market, that means we need to find substitutes for their 8.5 tcf of Net Exports. The Rest of the World is a Net Importer, so it isn't coming from there... and both the US and Canadian Prodution-to-Reserve ratios are already at extreme levels, so there's not a whole lot of upside there.

It seems to me that both the US and Canada need to take a lesson from Norway and seek to reduce our consumption by going Green and adapting alternative energy solutions.... that will free up more North American production for export to Europe. We don't even need to go as deep Green as Norway... I reckon that if we reduced North American Natural Gas consumption by 24%, it'd be more than enough to offset the loss of Russia's global natural gas net exports.

 

[Surrealistik]

I agree with you... but let's face facts - that's all rhetoric. I want to deal more with reality. Do you figure Canada has the stomach to try and reduce Natural Gas consumption and divert more of it's production towards exports to Europe in order to make up for taking Russian exports off the market?

Here's the situation, as far as Russia, the US and Canada are concerned - as net exporters - compared to some of our net exporting allies in Europe. Taken from the USEIA website, 2019 estimates, in trillions of cubic feet (tcf) of Dry Natural Gas:

Area​	Reserves (tcf)​	Production (tcf)​	Consumption (tcf)​	Exports (tcf)​	Imports (tcf)​	Net Exports (tcf)​
Russia​	1688.2​	23.9​	16.9​	9.1​	0.6​	8.5​
United States​	474.8​	33.9​	31.1​	4.7​	2.7​	2.0​
Canada​	73.9​	6.3​	4.4​	2.7​	1.0​	1.7​
Norway​	61.1​	4.1​	0.1​	3.9​	0.0​	3.9​
Germany​	1.2​	0.2​	3.5​	0.0​	3.4​	-3.4​
United Kingdom​	6.4​	1.4​	2.8​	0.3​	1.7​	-1.4​
France​	0.3​	0.0​	1.5​	0.4​	1.9​	-1.5​
Italy​	1.6​	0.2​	2.6​	0.0​	2.5​	-2.5​
Spain​	0.1​	0.0​	1.3​	0.0​	1.3​	-1.3​
Rest of World​	4869.3​	72.9​	78.4​	22.5​	28.6​	-6.1​

If we take the Russian net exports off the market, that means we need to find substitutes for their 8.5 tcf of Net Exports. The Rest of the World is a Net Importer, so it isn't coming from there... and both the US and Canadian Prodution-to-Reserve ratios are already at extreme levels, so there's not a whole lot of upside there.

It seems to me that both the US and Canada need to take a lesson from Norway and seek to reduce our consumption by going Green and adapting alternative energy solutions.... that will free up more North American production for export to Europe. We don't even need to go as deep Green as Norway... I reckon that if we reduced North American Natural Gas consumption by 24%, it'd be more than enough to offset the loss of Russia's global natural gas net exports.

Not speaking to a sustained discontinuation of trade so much as inflicting a complete and total loss RE: Russian strategic objectives in the aftermath of this invasion concerning NATO encroachment and acquisition of satellite states/buffer which is exceedingly doable.

Personally, I would prefer the world keep its long term sanction/economic isolation powder dry for by far the greatest threat of all facing the free world: China (and yes this will of course require foundation laying).

 

[DarkWizard12]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-04/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-updates/100880512

It gets better and better... Europe's largest nuclear power plant is now on fire after a Russian attack. The nuclear plant at Enerhodar, located in the Southern Ukraine, is currently burning and firefighters can't respond due to Russian gunfire. Scientists warn that if it explodes, it could potentially be ten times worse than the Chernobyl disaster.

good! show the world the russians are serious! if they're boneheaded enough to shell the largest nuclear power plant in europe, what stops them from launching nuclear missles and turning ukraine into a crater in which no living thing can walk?

 

[sanman]

 

[eohrnberger]

Out of necessity. We don't have the excess production capacity to fill any Russian export deficits... and even if we did, we don't have anywhere near the LNG capacity to get it to Europe.

It's going to take a lot of consumption cuts and infrastructure investment to get us to the point where we can even consider doing anything along those lines.

Reactivate previously operating facilities?
Get some fracking going?
The LNG is there.

 

[Cordelier]

Not speaking to a sustained discontinuation of trade so much as inflicting a complete and total loss RE: Russian strategic objectives in the aftermath of this invasion concerning NATO encroachment and acquisition of satellite states/buffer which is exceedingly doable.

Personally, I would prefer the world keep its long term sanction/economic isolation powder dry for by far the greatest threat of all facing the free world: China (and yes this will of course require foundation laying).

Well, if you're going to do that, my advice would be to focus on Africa... your Prime Minister Chrétien had some good ideas there.

 

[Cordelier]

good! show the world the russians are serious! if they're boneheaded enough to shell the largest nuclear power plant in europe, what stops them from launching nuclear missles and turning ukraine into a crater in which no living thing can walk?

It's a war... once the ball drops, all bets are off.

 

[Cordelier]

Reactivate previously operating facilities?
Get some fracking going?
The LNG is there.

I'd say it's definitely something to think about.... good luck getting the Germans to sign off on it, though, with how dependent their governing coalition is on Green support.

 

[jaypatriot]

Their military certainly seems worthless and badly managed.

It is worthless and poorly managed unless it attacks much smaller countries without nuclear weapons.
Then it can disrupt the functioning of the entire Western world.

 

[jaypatriot]

Thinking 'out of the box' and along similar lines:

The Ukrainian Air Force needs A10s. Couple of questions.

1. Does the US military not have any Ukrainian certified A10 pilots?
2. Could not those pilots be ordered stationed to Poland or Romania?
3. Could not those pilots happen to steal armed, fueled and prepped A10s from the flight line and fly them to the Ukraine?
4. Could not the US military then file court martial charges, to be resolved after the conflict is over? (assuming the pilot survives)
5. Could not those pilots then be found innocent in their court marshal? - extreme circumstances and such?
6. Could not the US military then just send them to their home? Or back to the Ukraine?

Or is this just too far out of the box thinking?

I am reading a series of espionage thrillers where the protagonists appear to be able to fly any kind of military aircraft. And survive successful attacks on their enemies.

Could that be a reflection of the real world or just wishful thinking?

 

[jaypatriot]

I'd say it's definitely something to think about.... good luck getting the Germans to sign off on it, though, with how dependent their governing coalition is on Green support.

Green energy activists might eventually change their tune when German citizens start freezing in their homes because they can't afford to heat them.

 

[Cordelier]

Green energy activists might eventually change their tune when German citizens start freezing in their homes because they can't afford to heat them.

Or they might throw the Ukrainians under the bus and make their own side-deal with Russia.

Or the CDU could try and split the Libertarian FDP off from the coalition and try to form their own government.... but that'd put the far-right nationalists in the catbird seat.

Who would you prefer being the swing vote in Germany? The Greens or the Neo-Nazis?

 

[Higgins86]

I visited Kiev and it's famous Nuclear plant some 15 years ago. This was only 10 years after Ukraines breakaway, Western Tourist where rather a novelty, as where English speakers. A beautiful city center with colorful cathedrals, cobbled streets.

I visited the Soviet Memorial to WW2, where it proudly displays Ukranian and Russian soldiers fighting side by side.

Western tourists were not a novelty in Ukraine 15 years ago lol. They boasted nearly 20-30 million tourists a year and Kiev was fast becoming the next Prague for British tourists before 2014

 

[Variant]

Thinking 'out of the box' and along similar lines:

The Ukrainian Air Force needs A10s. Couple of questions.

1. Does the US military not have any Ukrainian certified A10 pilots?
2. Could not those pilots be ordered stationed to Poland or Romania?
3. Could not those pilots happen to steal armed, fueled and prepped A10s from the flight line and fly them to the Ukraine?
4. Could not the US military then file court martial charges, to be resolved after the conflict is over? (assuming the pilot survives)
5. Could not those pilots then be found innocent in their court marshal? - extreme circumstances and such?
6. Could not the US military then just send them to their home? Or back to the Ukraine?

Or is this just too far out of the box thinking?

The Ukrainian air force does not need A10's. They are something You send in when you already have air superiority.

 

[jaypatriot]

Or they might throw the Ukrainians under the bus and make their own side-deal with Russia.

Or the CDU could try and split the Libertarian FDP off from the coalition and try to form their own government.... but that'd put the far-right nationalists in the catbird seat.

Who would you prefer being the swing vote in Germany? The Greens or the Neo-Nazis?

Let me ponder that for a while. I don't like Greens and I don't like Nazis.
How about a faction that appreciates a reliable supply of natural gas from America?
Or a faction that learns how to build and manage nuclear plants like the French do?

 

[Cordelier]

Let me ponder that for a while. I don't like Greens and I don't like Nazis.
How about a faction that appreciates a reliable supply of natural gas from America?
Or a faction that learns how to build and manage nuclear plants like the French do?

*LOL* Good luck... this is good old German granola politics.... no getting around the nuts and flakes.

 

[Slartibartfast]

It is worthless and poorly managed unless it attacks much smaller countries without nuclear weapons.

That happened and that’s how we found out that the Russian military is kinda worthless.

Then it can disrupt the functioning of the entire Western world.

While there has been refugees and political shifts, there hasn’t been widespread disruption.

 

[yankintx]

Western tourists were not a novelty in Ukraine 15 years ago lol. They boasted nearly 20-30 million tourists a year and Kiev was fast becoming the next Prague for British tourists before 2014

And the point of your rebuttel?

It was my personal experience while there

 

[ClaraD]

Their military certainly seems worthless and badly managed.

Yep they cannot even find their way to the capitol