European Jewish Congress wants Turkish Islamist group IHH banned in Europe

[alexa]

I think that instead of a ban, western democracies need to educate their citizens on the subject matter instead of acting as one of the agents that enables their spread.

With so many useful idiots living in the west, Islamism prospers because they are abetted through the media and through the illogical notion that rejecting totalitarianism is a taboo as long as the totalitarianism arises from those outside one's own cultural group.

Well I am glad that Europe does not make decisions on who is to blame by hearsay.

 

[Gardener]

Well I am glad that Europe does not make decisions on who is to blame by hearsay.

That's odd -- you have been relying upon the hearsay of the Islamists to support your views elsewhere. :roll:

 

[alexa]

That's odd -- you have been relying upon the hearsay of the Islamists to support your views elsewhere. :roll:

That says nothing. It is just a personal attack as is you usual.

 

[Gardener]

That says nothing. It is just a personal attack as is you usual.

Not a personal attack, but merely an observation on your methods. You have constantly resorted to using the hearsay of the Islamists on board the flotilla to support your views, and you even went so far as to use the Iran state propaganda apparatus.

Apparantly, you only see something as hearsay when those pesky Joos are involved. I wonder why?

 

[alexa]

Not a personal attack, but merely an observation on your methods. You have constantly resorted to using the hearsay of the Islamists on board the flotilla to support your views, and you even went so far as to use the Iran state propaganda apparatus.

Apparantly, you only see something as hearsay when those pesky Joos are involved. I wonder why?

Generally speaking I have waited until I have looked at things and come to a decision. I think you must be thinking about me saying that Arraf had said no one on board ship made the antisemtic statement the IDF first claimed were made by the crew of the Mavi Marmara after the IDF had to retract that it was them, or perhaps you are thinking of the US Ambassador who was on one of the ships whoo says that what Israel says is full of holes.

Of course, when people are giving the account of the IDF in a situation the truth of which is not yet known, it is necessary to also give both sides of the situation.

You do not believe that. You believe on coming to conclusions through hearsay and backing that up with fanciful sounding empty words.

Your pathetic remarks to me accusing me of being antisemetism just show what an impotent old man you really are. I have long thought I know where you would have stood had you been around in the '40's.

Now your personal attacks have taken this thread off topic, please stay on topic.

 

[Andalublue]

Obviously it should be banned.
That being said, I douibt Europe would ban it.

Ban it how? I'm not aware of it having any organisation in Europe. Perhaps you know differently. If it hasn't, what would you ban?

Is it banned in Israel? Or the US? It appears from the article you linked to that it has not. Again, I suspect it has no organisational entity to ban.

 

[PeteEU]

You said that only after the flotilla raid it was declared that the IHH has ties to terrorist organizations.
That was an outright lie.

No, that is not what I said. I said that Israel after the botched raid started to use the IHH supposed links to terrorists as an excuse and justification. The IHH and its links were not mentioned by any Israeli or IDF source as far as I have seen before the raid, but that does not mean that Israel has not claimed it before long ago. That is a rather big difference and not a lie by any means.

 

[Apocalypse]

Ban it how? I'm not aware of it having any organisation in Europe. Perhaps you know differently. If it hasn't, what would you ban?

I believe an organization that is banned from Europe is simply not allowed to practice whatever it practices within the boundries of Europe in the future.

Is it banned in Israel?

Actually yes, long before the flotilla incident.

 

[Apocalypse]

No, that is not what I said. I said that Israel after the botched raid started to use the IHH supposed links to terrorists as an excuse and justification.

Israel has banned the IHH way before the flotilla incident, when one of its leaders was caught financing Hamas.
Look up the Wiki article for the organization.

 

[PeteEU]

Pete who is the Danish Institute for International Studies run by? It says it is Independent.

Home - DIIS

TBH I have never heard of it. It is one of those organisations set up to present the Danish government with independent views of international affairs and such.

But it was set up by law in 2002 and is funded via the normal education budget as far as I can see. According to the law it is independent of government interference and the structure of its organisation looks like a typical independent organisation in Denmark. When the Danes set up independent organisations these organisations are independent regardless if the funding comes from the state.

The report it self done by an American, can be read at the website for free.

DCISM - Fuldt format

Flashpoint Partners is his website.

He is supposedly an expert on terror organisations.

Now I have read the part of his report where he mentions IHH and it is both compelling and a lot of hearsay. He almost exclusively relies on a French source (in French of course) when it comes to the IHH, and no first hand sources on among other things the investigation of the IHH by the Turkish authorities.

And then there is this

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/what-about-the-turkish-charitys-alleged-links-to-terrorists.html

This article brings up some valid points about the French source and dents it credibility quite a bit.

But as always with such studies from think tanks, one has to take into account and motive of the person or persons who write such studies. For one, the comments about IHH and Iraq/Falluja are lets say... with an American view point and hardly unbiased.

But as I have stated, I dont doubt that some terrorist elements may have infiltrated the organisation as they have infiltrated many organisations, but trying to taint everyone on the flotilla with a terrorist tag just because this organisation paid and in part organised the trip is just being disingenuous to say the least and that is what the IDF and Israel has attempted.

 

[PeteEU]

Israel has banned the IHH way before the flotilla incident, when one of its leaders was caught financing Hamas.
Look up the Wiki article for the organization.

Banned? The organisation is not located in Israel so Israel has no jurisdiction over it.. Dont you mean put on a terror watch list?

Does not change the fact that it was only after the botch raid that they started using the IHH links to supposed terror organisation as an excuse and tried to paint the hundreds of people on board as terrorists.. which is a classic way of trying to deflate any debate and gain a ton of sympathy. And look it worked with the far right wing of the US.. go figure.

 

[Apocalypse]

Banned? The organisation is not located in Israel so Israel has no jurisdiction over it.. Dont you mean put on a terror watch list?

From wiki, according to Reuters:

the Istanbul-based Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH) is an Islamic charity group banned in Israel that was formed to provide aid to Bosnian Muslims in the mid-1990s. It has been involved in aid missions in Pakistan, Ethiopia, Lebanon, Indonesia, Iraq, Palestinian territories, Ghana, Mongolia, China, Brazil, Argentina and other places, according to Turkish media.[

IHH (

Does not change the fact that it was only after the botch raid that they started using the IHH links to supposed terror organisation as an excuse and tried to paint the hundreds of people on board as terrorists.. which is a classic way of trying to deflate any debate and gain a ton of sympathy. And look it worked with the far right wing of the US.. go figure.

Does not change the fact that you're wrong.
Since it was banned before the flotilla raid, since the Danish institute has published its report before the flotilla raid, the only available conclusion is that you are wrong.

 

[alexa]

One of the questions that has crossed my mind a few times Apocalypse is whether Israel might have had a different attitude to this ship because of it's funding from IHH.

 

[alexa]

TBH I have never heard of it. It is one of those organisations set up to present the Danish government with independent views of international affairs and such.

But it was set up by law in 2002 and is funded via the normal education budget as far as I can see. According to the law it is independent of government interference and the structure of its organisation looks like a typical independent organisation in Denmark. When the Danes set up independent organisations these organisations are independent regardless if the funding comes from the state.

The report it self done by an American, can be read at the website for free.

DCISM - Fuldt format

Flashpoint Partners is his website.

He is supposedly an expert on terror organisations.

Now I have read the part of his report where he mentions IHH and it is both compelling and a lot of hearsay. He almost exclusively relies on a French source (in French of course) when it comes to the IHH, and no first hand sources on among other things the investigation of the IHH by the Turkish authorities.

And then there is this

What about the Turkish charity’s alleged links to terrorists?

This article brings up some valid points about the French source and dents it credibility quite a bit.

But as always with such studies from think tanks, one has to take into account and motive of the person or persons who write such studies. For one, the comments about IHH and Iraq/Falluja are lets say... with an American view point and hardly unbiased.

But as I have stated, I dont doubt that some terrorist elements may have infiltrated the organisation as they have infiltrated many organisations, but trying to taint everyone on the flotilla with a terrorist tag just because this organisation paid and in part organised the trip is just being disingenuous to say the least and that is what the IDF and Israel has attempted.

Thanks Pete I had done some research on the people who were quoted as being responsible for the allegations and came up with much the same conclusion as you.

 

[Apocalypse]

One of the questions that has crossed my mind a few times Apocalypse is whether Israel might have had a different attitude to this ship because of it's funding from IHH.

It could be that it has increased Israel's suspicion, but I doubt the procedure would be different in case of a different organization.
After all the same procedure was used when Israel has boarded the Rachel Corrie.

 

[alexa]

It could be that it has increased Israel's suspicion, but I doubt the procedure would be different in case of a different organization.
After all the same procedure was used when Israel has boarded the Rachel Corrie.

I don't think the Rachael Corrie was the same. The Irish Government had spent time talking to the Israeli Government as it was concerned that they not be hurt and was also in touch with the boat. The people on that boat sat down and everything went peacefully.

On the other boats (not discussing Mavi Marmara) the people say they put out their hands and tried only with their bodies to prevent soldiers from coming aboard. It is said there were injuries some fairly serious on these boats. It has to be imagined that had the Rachael Corrie not come later the same would be the case for her.

On the Mavi Marmara it was of course more serious and I need to wait a bit longer till I can feel I know what the whole situation was there.

It looks from what I have seen that IHH may have given money to Muslim fighters on occasions. I don't know if this is certain but it does look a possibility. I read 3 groups. Bosnia, Chechnya and I have forgotten the last but it would appear it is Hamas.

What difference is there in it giving money to Hamas and the USA allowing freely fund raising for the IRA? Why is one terrorism and the other not?

 

[Apocalypse]

I don't think the Rachael Corrie was the same. The Irish Government had spent time talking to the Israeli Government as it was concerned that they not be hurt and was also in touch with the boat. The people on that boat sat down and everything went peacefully.

I'm speaking about the combative procedure.
The same soldiers who were on the Mavi Marmara were there on the Rachel Corrie, carrying exactly the same orders in exactly the same way. The only difference was in the activists themselves.
I think you're just trying to avoid a truth you dislike, that the violence on board of the Mavi Marmara was the decision of the activists, and is fully due to their actions.

 

[alexa]

I'm speaking about the combative procedure.
The same soldiers who were on the Mavi Marmara were there on the Rachel Corrie, carrying exactly the same orders in exactly the same way. The only difference was in the activists themselves.
I think you're just trying to avoid a truth you dislike, that the violence on board of the Mavi Marmara was the decision of the activists, and is fully due to their actions.

I am trying to avoid as I have many times saying things when the whole situation is not known. I still have the same doubts as when I first asked you but that is not the subject of this thread.

So what difference is there between IHH donating money to Hamas and the US freely on the streets collecting money for the IRA? Why is one a terrorist activity and the other not?

 

[alexa]

Beg your pardon I missed this.

I'm speaking about the combative procedure.
The same soldiers who were on the Mavi Marmara were there on the Rachel Corrie, carrying exactly the same orders in exactly the same way. The only difference was in the activists themselves.

No, there was only violence towards Israeli's on one ship but passengers involved in non violent protest were injured on the others. The soldiers acted differentlyl.

 

[Apocalypse]

I am trying to avoid as I have many times saying things when the whole situation is not known. I still have the same doubts as when I first asked you but that is not the subject of this thread.

You have made countless of baseless conclusions yourself, and I can point out at them if you'd really like me to, so your point is quite hypocritical.
Besides that the evidence is quite clear right now that a big group of activists have planned to incite the violence, so I don't think we're making baseless conclusions here.

So what difference is there between IHH donating money to Hamas and the US freely on the streets collecting money for the IRA? Why is one a terrorist activity and the other not?

I don't know much about the US-IRA ties, I'd have to read into that and respond to your comment by tomorrow (hopefully).
I tend to avoid arguing about issues I lack knowledge of.

 

[Apocalypse]

Beg your pardon I missed this.



No, there was only violence towards Israeli's on one ship but passengers involved in non violent protest were injured on the others. The soldiers acted differentlyl.

According to reports there were zero dead and zero injuries on any ship that's not the Mavi Marmara.
I'd hence ask for your source for that claim.

 

[alexa]

You have made countless of baseless conclusions yourself, and I can point out at them if you'd really like me to, so your point is quite hypocritical.

Yes, feel free to do that as long as they are related to this thread.

Besides that the evidence is quite clear right now that a big group of activists have planned to incite the violence, so I don't think we're making baseless conclusions here.

Again this is not related to this thread but I will give the link for others to see.

Gaza flotilla captain: Activists prepared attack against IDF raid - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

I am not convinced that this video is what you say. Part of the reason being it is extremely hard to hear. I am not even sure he always knows what he is saying. It is by no means concrete proof about anything. The man is clearly under duress, being prompted and doesn't understand English to well. I have already said all that. You are bringing another thread into this one.

I don't know much about the US-IRA ties, I'd have to read into that and respond to your comment by tomorrow (hopefully).
I tend to avoid arguing about issues I lack knowledge of.

Well I wait to hear.

 

[alexa]

According to reports there were zero dead and zero injuries on any ship that's not the Mavi Marmara.
I'd hence ask for your source for that claim.

Oh gosh I have heard it so often and given links before as did Infinite. However if you look in the ME where I gave a link of the retired US Ambassador talking who was on one of the smaller ships you will hear him say this is so.

 

[Apocalypse]

Oh gosh I have heard it so often and given links before as did Infinite. However if you look in the ME where I gave a link of the retired US Ambassador talking who was on one of the smaller ships you will hear him say this is so.

Once more alexa, according to reports there were zero deaths and zero injuries on any ship that's not the Mavi Marmara.
What you're referring to is not a report but the words of one of the activists, which really doesn't constitute as a report.
You were referring to his words as fact, hence drawing baseless conclusions and hence taking away your own credibility on this subject.
It implies on your deep bias against Israel, since I can't see you taking the words of the IDF soldiers as facts.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Once more alexa, according to reports there were zero deaths and zero injuries on any ship that's not the Mavi Marmara.
What you're referring to is not a report but the words of one of the activists, which really doesn't constitute as a report.
You were referring to his words as fact, hence drawing baseless conclusions and hence taking away your own credibility on this subject.
It implies on your deep bias against Israel, since I can't see you taking the words of the IDF soldiers as facts.

You are taking the subject of another thread into this one and Alexa has repeatedly reminded you that what you are pursuing is not actually relevant to the subject of this thread.

I also like the way that reported witnesses' words from an incident are not actually relevant unless written as a "report" which suits your purposes. I don't know how many times on the other thread I told you that the activists equipment had been confiscated - hence any independent "report" is not possible while the IDF is sole possessor of all film and recorded evidence.