Ethics and War

[Gandhi>Bush]

Re:

No you wouldnt. You wouldnt do anything in your power to save peoples lives. You would rather not kill a person even though you knew he was going to detonate a ton of C4 explosives in the middle of manhattan. Because of your twisted ideal of you would never kill even if it meant insurmountable casualties in the end.

The only way to stop a bomb from going off is by killing the bomber? I had no idea.

Again your ideals are admirable but they just arent conceivable in a world like this. You mean to tell me you would let a man that you knew he was going to commit Biblical attrocities)live because you dont beleive in killing. Well hate to break it to you but you just helped indirectly kill all those people he killed.

I would not allow him to do it. Period. Did the student in Tiananmen Square blow up the four tanks to stop them? No. He stood there. He merely stood in front of them. Can you imagine the effects of the demostration if all of the students had done what he had done?

"You look him in the eye simply saying you will not strike back and you will not be turned away."

"You tell him that they may have your lives, but they will not have your obedience." - M K Gandhi

The lessor evil would be the guy who you should kill so he woont be able to reek mass casualties.

I can't make sense of this.

Your absolutely right. I cant argue facts and common sense. The habitants wmake it to be a barbarianistic world with greed at its tip. When this happens all common moralities and civility goes right down the drain. This you must understand. Now if we were living in a dream world then I would agree with your ideals at every length. However, when it comes to lessor of 2 evils your ideal is highly flawed in every shape and form.

Be different. "Be the change you want to see in the world." Just because the world isn't "a dream" doesn't mean it has to be a nightmare. Just because the world isn't "a dream" doesn't justify your imperfections.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Re:

and emotionally taxing, i am sure
God bless the US Military
thank you for all the liberties i enjoy, and take for granted sometimes

Gunny and I say your very welcome. Thanks for knowing that you have those liberties because so many sacrificed alot, or paid the ulitmate sacrifice, or killed someone for them.

 

[Caine]

Re:

You ever watch Black Hawk Down? Well in that movie when one of the soldiers was talking to Josh Hartnett(who was an idealist in the film) who was also the CO there the soldier told him to not worry about whats happening or whats going to happen or what he couldve done to change it "its just war."

Umm, he was a SSG, not the CO.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Re:

are those 2 examples the only ones you can come up with in recent times
out of Billions and billions and billions, a whopping 2, you must feel really good to put yourself in their company....all 2 of them
they too were ahead of their time, and you may want to follow in their footsteps, i choose the more pragmatic and realistic path

What they did isn't real?

There are thousands more. Any time you hear about a hunger strike, any time you hear about a sit in. Any time you hear anything about a protest that doesn't use violence, that is nonviolence. Ceasar Chavez immediately comes to mind. Gandhi and King just happen to be the shining lights and biggest success stories of nonviolence.

 

[Caine]

Re:

Gunny and I say your very welcome. Thanks for knowing that you have those liberties because so many sacrificed alot, or paid the ulitmate sacrifice, or killed someone for them.

And I'd do it again if I had to.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Re:

The only way to stop a bomb from going off is by killing the bomber? I had no idea.



I would not allow him to do it. Period. Did the student in Tiananmen Square blow up the four tanks to stop them? No. He stood there. He merely stood in front of them. Can you imagine the effects of the demostration if all of the students had done what he had done?

"You look him in the eye simply saying you will not strike back and you will not be turned away."

"You tell him that they may have your lives, but they will not have your obedience." - M K Gandhi



I can't make sense of this.



Be different. "Be the change you want to see in the world." Just because the world isn't "a dream" doesn't mean it has to be a nightmare. Just because the world isn't "a dream" doesn't justify your imperfections.

Not if you didnt know where he was going to plant it which is always the case. The only way to keep this from happening is by either killing him or severely hurting him then detaining him for life. However, I get the feeling you are in no shape to be fighting hand to hand combat so a kill would be more likely in your case.

Plus nightmares are dreams incase you didnt know that. So in a sense it can be both. In america its a fantasy. In the ME its a nightmare.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Re:

Martin and Mohandas never had to deal with ruthless al qaeda and the taliban knocking on their doors becuse they want to kill everyone in their family cause they are evil (in the terroists eyes). In this situation would you just lay down for them to kill you and your whole eniter family? Or would you grow some balls of steel and man the fvck up and take care of these pathetic bastards? There are times when killing is necassary to stay alive and protect others and there are times when it is just plain careless. Again I only condone it when it is in defense of when it saves others lives.

You should read Gandhi's autobiography. He's met the angry end of many mobs and if you think King never had a confrontation with the KKK you're out of your mind.

It takes more balls to use nonviolence than it takes to use violence. Sticking your neck out for a men that want your neck is far more brave than engaging in a fight.

 

[MSgt]

Re:

What they did isn't real?

There are thousands more. Any time you hear about a hunger strike, any time you hear about a sit in. Any time you hear anything about a protest that doesn't use violence, that is nonviolence. Ceasar Chavez immediately comes to mind. Gandhi and King just happen to be the shining lights and biggest success stories of nonviolence.

....and this is where people like me come in. These two great men were murdered by violent men. Without individuals that would commit violence to protect these "great men" they could have been greater and could have done far more good for far much longer.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Re:

Not if you didnt know where he was going to plant it which is always the case. The only way to keep this from happening is by either killing him or severely hurting him then detaining him for life.

You have to severely hurt someone to detain them?

However, I get the feeling you are in no shape to be fighting hand to hand combat so a kill would be more likely in your case.

I'm kind of lost as to what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?

 

[DeeJayH]

Re:

It takes more balls to use nonviolence than it takes to use violence.

make sure you put in your will that you want to have that inscribed on your tombstone, because you will be 6 feet under very soon
that is if you actually go out into the world with these beliefs and challenge those that would hurt you regardless of your beliefs

rather than preach if from the comfort of your pc

 

[SKILMATIC]

Re:

You should read Gandhi's autobiography. He's met the angry end of many mobs and if you think King never had a confrontation with the KK you're out of your mind.

It takes more balls to use nonviolenc than it takes to use violenc. Sticking your neck out for a men that want your neck is far more brave than engaging in a fight.

WEll you just signed your own death warrant then. People will not be lenient just cause you preach kindness and peace. They interpret this as weakness and vulnerability.

Umm, he was a SSG, not the CO.

My bad your right.

and this is where people like me come in. These two great men were murdered by violent men. Without individuals that would commit violence to protect these "great men" they could have been greater and could have done far more good for far much longer.

Bingo. If all these men had a man who killed their threats they wouldve made much more of an impact on the world but becasue they decided to end their own quest becasue they were stupid than it robbed the world of its potential fomr these mens impact. To not defend yourself is like not defending yourself in a court case that you had no affiliation of. You were innocent yet you would rather be subject to the consequences that you chose to bear. Thats why I never understood jesus sometimes. I know he did it for us but that was kinda stupid in a way.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Re:

You have to severely hurt someone to detain them?



I'm kind of lost as to what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?

Well I know you dont have the capacity to do it. In order for you to do so he would have to be severely incompassitated or kiled. You dont know how to secure a hard killing criminal without inflictng any injuries. He would detonate himself while detonating the mother load of C4 than be detained. The only thing you can do is kil him to save millions. What do you do? The ball is in your court. You have a split second to decide. Your time to kill is only a few seconds and you have to decide whether to kill him or let him kill millions and get away with it. This is what our soldiers deal with day in and day out. Of course they are geniuses and chose to save the millions regardless of what ideals they have its just common sense.

 

[SKILMATIC]

I'm kind of lost as to what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?

Aere you serious? It says what it means. It means you dont have what it takes to detain an individual because you have no idea on how to fight. You are a pacifist it comes with the territory. A trained cold hard killer would eat you for lunch if you tried to detain him not to mention prolly detonate the bomb while you tried. Your only choice is either kill him or let him kill millions

 

[MSgt]

I feel that people like 'Gandhi>Bush' is an extremely necessary existence. They keep people like us honest. Not to say that we would just go right off of the deep end were it not for an external source of conscience, but rather that they provide for us a reminder of why we should exist. Of course, I believe and have always believed that we exist for our country's safety, but I also believe that we should exist to protect the weak. And by weak, I do not just mean people who are unable to protect themselves, but also people who refuse to protect themselves or simply wish others to commit violence on their behalf. I don't mind this role. Not in the slightest.....but I don't wish to be condemned for it by the people that have enjoyed it's benefits. This is the only thing that has ever bothered me about anything I have done.

 

[Caine]

Re:

Well I know you dont have the capacity to do it. In order for you to do so he would have to be severely incompassitated or kiled. You dont know how to secure a hard killing criminal without inflictng any injuries. He would detonate himself while detonating the mother load of C4 than be detained. The only thing you can do is kil him to save millions. What do you do? The ball is in your court. You have a split second to decide. Your time to kill is only a few seconds and you have to decide whether to kill him or let him kill millions and get away with it. This is what our soldiers deal with day in and day out. Of course they are geniuses and chose to save the millions regardless of what ideals they have its just common sense.

I believe the bolded portion above is a bit of an overstatement.
Granted, the men and woman that serve our country deserve the good credit for the things they do, as much as I say it got annoying to be thanked by the civilians for defending our nation, I still enjoyed hearing it at the same time.

But, day in and day out is a bit of an exaggeration. Alot of what goes on over there are patrols that end up with nothing happening, this last deployment, our soldiers got so bored they would chase the kids in the streets and take toy guns from them, Yes, you say the toys guns COULD BE REAL GUNS, and some of the guns do look like real guns, but half of the toys brought back to us were in the shape of a AK47 and the size of my tv remote control. That one is obvious. But yeah, most of the time there are patrols of which nothing happens, kids beg for candy, teens try to sell you junk they found on the street, and adults smile and wave. This is what happens day in and day out.

 

[Caine]

oh yeah, and the teenaged/young adult females try to flirt with thier eyes.

:smile: :smile:

 

[Caine]

I feel that people like 'Gandhi>Bush' is an extremely necessary existence. They keep people like us honest. Not to say that we would just go right off of the deep end were it not for an external source of conscience, but rather that they provide for us a reminder of why we should exist. Of course, I believe and have always believed that we exist for our country's safety, but I also believe that we should exist to protect the weak. And by weak, I do not just mean people who are unable to protect themselves, but also people who refuse to protect themselves or simply wish others to commit violence on their behalf. I don't mind this role. Not in the slightest.....but I don't wish to be condemned for it by the people that have enjoyed it's benefits. This is the only thing that has ever bothered me about anything I have done.

I absolutely agree with this.
Violence and War is necessary in some situations.

Ghandi dude... Are you telling me that IF (and its a big IF) you had a gun in your home, and some punk ass biaatch broke into your house and had a weapon and was threatening you with it, would you let him shoot you, or would you busta cap in his punk ass?

Self Defense is necessary.

 

[MSgt]

Re:

I believe the bolded portion above is a bit of an overstatement.
Granted, the men and woman that serve our country deserve the good credit for the things they do, as much as I say it got annoying to be thanked by the civilians for defending our nation, I still enjoyed hearing it at the same time.

But, day in and day out is a bit of an exaggeration. Alot of what goes on over there are patrols that end up with nothing happening, this last deployment, our soldiers got so bored they would chase the kids in the streets and take toy guns from them, Yes, you say the toys guns COULD BE REAL GUNS, and some of the guns do look like real guns, but half of the toys brought back to us were in the shape of a AK47 and the size of my tv remote control. That one is obvious. But yeah, most of the time there are patrols of which nothing happens, kids beg for candy, teens try to sell you junk they found on the street, and adults smile and wave. This is what happens day in and day out.

I believe what he meant was that the fact that they are even on patrols in third world countries, or wear the uniform while sitting in a base in "Ohio", or sitting on a ship for 6 months at a time, or training in Norway with Norwegians, or sitting on Okinawa during a typhoon, or...etc. that they are protecting the country "day in and day out".

And don't forget, because this patrol had a good day doesn't mean that that patrol somewhere else didn't.

 

[Caine]

Re:

I believe what he meant was that the fact that they are even on patrols in third world countries, or wear the uniform while sitting in a base in "Ohio", or sitting on a ship for 6 months at a time, or training in Norway with Norwegians, or sitting on Okinawa during a typhoon, or...etc. that they are protecting the country "day in and day out".

And don't forget, because this patrol had a good day doesn't mean that that patrol somewhere else didn't.

Well, your right about that.
But when I hear day in and day out, I usually thing of "on average"

Because, nobody does the same thing every single day.
But most people have "an average day"
Even if they have weeks where there is nothing "average"
say, like when I was a part of the invasion force... there was nothing average about ANY of those days.

 

[TimmyBoy]

Their is an old addage: "All is fair in love and war."

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re:

Why is it that "no killing" automatically means "no action"? Have you heard of Martin Luther King, Jr.? Have you heard of Mohandas K. Gandhi? What were they? Two idiots enjoying their sunday brunch? Did they not change the world?

Not really. The British Empire was collapsing anyway, and it was only a matter of time before India was cast loose. As for Marty, it's not like someone else wouldn't have taken his place if he wasn't there. The time for change had come, in both India and the US, and who the individuals were that became the rallying points wasn't all that relevant.

Needless to say, another Marty, much longer ago, was merely the first notable rebel in an evitable chain of decay and change. Once the printing press became available, it was inevitable that eventually a Martin Luther would show up to challenge the monolithic and corrupt church.

Many times in history the historical leader is merely the lucky guy riding the best wave.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re:

Warmaking isnt about making the world a better place it is about preservation of life and the way of it. However, if we didnt engage in WW1 and WW2 the world be be a worse place than it is today. So in actuality war does make the world a better place(in some cases). Now other wars are fought for the wrong reasons. Thats when it is just plain wrong.

Now now. If Wilson hadn't dragged us into WWI, there's every reason to believe that there wouldn't have been a WWII. And if there hadn't been a WWII, chances are excellent that the deadly divide between East and West wouldn't have been as deadly.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re:

It takes more balls to use nonviolence than it takes to use violence. Sticking your neck out for a men that want your neck is far more brave than engaging in a fight.

And now let's come to the real world.

There's a Ghandi kind of guy, leading a crowd of protesters protesting something, and across the square is a Hitler kind of guy, with a whole Panzer division.

Non-violent methods are only effective when the other side is reluctant to use deadly force. When the other side thinks the people on the non-violent side are animals and in the way, things get very messy.

Islam has far too many deluded fools who think it's okay to use their own children as bomb delivery devices to play the non-violent holier-than-thou peace-will-overcome role. The only thing violent towelheads get from such ineffectual tactics is knowledge that their feelings of manly superiority is justified.

 

[Caine]

Re:

And now let's come to the real world.

There's a Ghandi kind of guy, leading a crowd of protesters protesting something, and across the square is a Hitler kind of guy, with a whole Panzer division.

Non-violent methods are only effective when the other side is reluctant to use deadly force. When the other side thinks the people on the non-violent side are animals and in the way, things get very messy.

Islam has far too many deluded fools who think it's okay to use their own children as bomb delivery devices to play the non-violent holier-than-thou peace-will-overcome role. The only thing violent towelheads get from such ineffectual tactics is knowledge that their feelings of manly superiority is justified.

You just discredited your entire argument with racial prejudice.
Besides, I think you need to look into Islam a little more before blaming a religion for the problems.

 

[TimmyBoy]

Re:

You just discredited your entire argument with racial prejudice.
Besides, I think you need to look into Islam a little more before blaming a religion for the problems.

Very well said Caine. Islam is actually a wonderful religion, if you take the time to study it. We wouldn't have our present Western Civilization if it wasn't for Islamic civilization. The Shiites practice a more radical form of Islam whereas the Sunnis have a very strict interpretation of the Qu'ran and do not tolerate any deviation from it. Some Islamic societies interpret jihad as a peaceful activism while others interpret jihad as a using force against tyranny and oppression.

Malcolm X, one of my favorite political activists, was also a Muslim convert and after his pilgramage to Mecca, where he learned true Islam and not the Islam he learned in prison, he came home willing to work with Martin Luther King Jr. and more tolerant of whites. I think it was Malcolm's religious faith that also gave him the strength to become the decent man that he became. I personally believe the FBI was ultimately behind his assination. But his activism made the US a better place to live and enabled Martin Luther King Jr. to suceed. Without Malcolm X, I am not so sure the Martin Luther King Jr would have suceeded, because he was the perferable alternative than X. They could refuse to deal with King and thus end up dealing with Malcolm X type radicals or they could deal with King. Without X, they would not have been willing to deal with King.