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Etheridge caught in on-camera confrontation

Dr_Patrick

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Just because someone takes an action that is legal doesn't make their action morally right, and I think we all know that.

Aren't conservatives supposed to be the party of values? Why don't you want to know who these trackers were?
Well, thankfully your moral views don't dictate the law. I have no idea as I'm not a conservative. I don't really care who they are. It wouldn't change a single thing about my views on this.
 

Ockham

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So one person's actions do excuse another's in your view?
In this case, one person's actions were irrelevant to the others.

You also aren't interested in finding out why the claims of the trackers don't make sense?
What claims?
So you're not interested in additional information that may add context?
Sure. Post the context.

You're not interested in the whole story, but just the story that makes the Democrat look bad?
It has nothing to do with a Democrat - it has to do with an assault. Unless you're claiming the "whole story" ends in a self-defense claim... the rest of the story is irrelevant.

Fair enough. Each to their own.
My own is based on evidence. Not suppostion.

I'm more interested in social progress, truth, and the advancement of humanity than in seeing "my team" "win."
I'm more interested in justice and application of the law equally, no matter the "team".

You're allowed to feel differently, however, and I respect your right to do so.
Ok.
 

Dr_Patrick

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What right is there to shove a camera in peoples faces and start asking questions? Freedom of the press. Well the press is held accountable for what they report and do. These guys are anon.
So what crime did they commit here? By asking a question? And no, they didn't get in his face. He was walking towards them.
 

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Well, thankfully your moral views don't dictate the law. I have no idea as I'm not a conservative. I don't really care who they are. It wouldn't change a single thing about my views on this.
I agree. Well put.
 

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We did get the whole story: two immature kids did an immature thing which resulted in an assault by a congressman. The two immature kids might be part of the exposition, but the climax and conclusion of this story remain the same: the congressman behaved very, very badly and in a totally inappropriate way.
If that were actually the end of the story, I'd agree with you.

However, I think that right now it appears that a competing political interest used some very young people in a very unscrupulous and insidious way, in an attempt to manipulate and control the general population on the merit of emotion rather than the substance of issues. Oh, and yes, the Congressman responded poorly.

I'm more worried about the sneaky, manipulative, lying propagandists that would take advantage of and enlist young people to do their dirty work. Obviously if they could win on the merits of their argument, they would. They can't, so they're using this tactic instead. Logically then, whatever their goal may be is likely not in our best interests as a society.

What's more important, the temper of a congressman when he's set up for exactly that occurance, or a group of people that are manipulating children, engaging in propaganda, and trying to sneak in policies and agendas that wouldn't be passed if they were dealt with honestly?
 

Dr_Patrick

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If that were actually the end of the story, I'd agree with you.

However, I think that right now it appears that a competing political interest used some very young people in a very unscrupulous and insidious way, in an attempt to manipulate and control the general population on the merit of emotion rather than the substance of issues. Oh, and yes, the Congressman responded poorly.
And what evidence do you have to back your assertion that these kids were used as pawns? Telling them to "**** off" would be responding poorly. He got physical with them.

I'm more worried about the sneaky, manipulative, lying propagandists that would take advantage of and enlist young people to do their dirty work. Obviously if they could win on the merits of their argument, they would. They can't, so they're using this tactic instead. Logically then, whatever their goal may be is likely not in our best interests as a society.
I'm concerned that you think it is some insidious partisan plot rather than two kids simply asking a pointed question of a Congressman.
 

jallman

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If that were actually the end of the story, I'd agree with you.
It is the end of the story.

However, I think that right now it appears that a competing political interest used some very young people in a very unscrupulous and insidious way, in an attempt to manipulate and control the general population on the merit of emotion rather than the substance of issues. Oh, and yes, the Congressman responded poorly.
When there is some legitimate proof of this presented, then we can address the ill behavior of those rivals. However, the fact remains that an assault was made by a congressman. On two kids, no less.

I'm more worried about the sneaky, manipulative, lying propagandists that would take advantage of and enlist young people to do their dirty work. Obviously if they could win on the merits of their argument, they would. They can't, so they're using this tactic instead. Logically then, whatever their goal may be is likely not in our best interests as a society.
If this is proven to be true, then by all means, I will be worried about them, too. Until then, I am concerning myself with facts and the fact is there is a congressman who thinks it is appropriate to assault young people for asking questions. There's no reason for a man of his age to be assaulting kids except in self defense. Let's deal with that first.


What's more important, the temper of a congressman when he's set up for exactly that occurance, or a group of people that are manipulating children, engaging in propaganda, and trying to sneak in policies and agendas that wouldn't be passed if they were dealt with honestly?
Neither is of more importance than the other. Which came first? The chicken or the egg? And frankly, I am not going to claim these guys were manipulated because I don't know if they were or not. However, I do know that one was assaulted and who he was assaulted by. Let's deal with the facts as they come available.
 

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Need i even reply to that Alastor? What an argumentative mess you have become in this thread.
 

Alastor

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And what evidence do you have to back your assertion that these kids were used as pawns?
Their story doesn't make any sense, that's why.

If they were scared, they'd have said where they were from. If they were students, they'd have said where they were from. They asked a loaded question to start the conversation off. They knew where the Senator would be - he was not at the Capital where one usually finds Senators. They had cameras ready and rolling, and they asked a loaded question.

These were not "just kids."

They had to know where the Senator was, get there at the right time, know what he looked like, asked a loaded question, didn't respond candidly when asked a question about who they were, you argue that they were scared but a scared person would answer the question...

Then they made sure to send the video out to a political Internet site, but made sure to cover their tracks as they did so - they didn't turn it over to their professor or their parents. They sent it to a political site so it would gain attention.

This story doesn't make sense. There's more to it than this.

I don't have to know the truth in order to see the lie.
 

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And if they were - how would that change the reaction of Etheridge or change the result? My point is... it doesn't matter.
I agree. That is why I used the eyeroll emoticon. ;)
 

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Their story doesn't make any sense, that's why.

If they were scared, they'd have said where they were from. If they were students, they'd have said where they were from. They asked a loaded question to start the conversation off. They knew where the Senator would be - he was not at the Capital where one usually finds Senators. They had cameras ready and rolling, and they asked a loaded question.

These were not "just kids."

They had to know where the Senator was, get there at the right time, know what he looked like, asked a loaded question, didn't respond candidly when asked a question about who they were, you argue that they were scared but a scared person would answer the question...

Then they made sure to send the video out to a political Internet site, but made sure to cover their tracks as they did so - they didn't turn it over to their professor or their parents. They sent it to a political site so it would gain attention.

This story doesn't make sense. There's more to it than this.

I don't have to know the truth in order to see the lie.
So you are guessing. That's what I thought.
 

RightinNYC

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If that were actually the end of the story, I'd agree with you.

However, I think that right now it appears that a competing political interest used some very young people in a very unscrupulous and insidious way, in an attempt to manipulate and control the general population on the merit of emotion rather than the substance of issues.
Have any evidence to back up this flight of fancy?

Oh, and yes, the Congressman responded poorly.
Which is the only thing that the video actually shows.

I'm more worried about the sneaky, manipulative, lying propagandists that would take advantage of and enlist young people to do their dirty work.
This is pretty hilarious. When two conservative kids go out there and engage in gotcha journalism, it must be because some shadowy propagandists paid them to do so because conservative students are too stupid to come up with this on their own.

When millions of students went out to campaign on behalf of Obama, was that because they were being tricked into doing it by sneaky, manipulative, lying propagandists, or was it because they chose to do it?

Where's the line where someone goes from mindless pawn to intelligent activist?

Obviously if they could win on the merits of their argument, they would. They can't, so they're using this tactic instead. Logically then, whatever their goal may be is likely not in our best interests as a society.
There's nothing logical about this train of thought. Because someone asks someone a confrontational question, their goal is contrary to the best interests of our society?

What's more important, the temper of a congressman when he's set up for exactly that occurance, or a group of people that are manipulating children, engaging in propaganda, and trying to sneak in policies and agendas that wouldn't be passed if they were dealt with honestly?
I'm more concerned about how many people in this country refuse to accept things that challenge their carefully constructed worldview.
 
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jallman

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Their story doesn't make any sense, that's why.

If they were scared, they'd have said where they were from. If they were students, they'd have said where they were from. They asked a loaded question to start the conversation off. They knew where the Senator would be - he was not at the Capital where one usually finds Senators. They had cameras ready and rolling, and they asked a loaded question.

These were not "just kids."

They had to know where the Senator was, get there at the right time, know what he looked like, asked a loaded question, didn't respond candidly when asked a question about who they were, you argue that they were scared but a scared person would answer the question...

Then they made sure to send the video out to a political Internet site, but made sure to cover their tracks as they did so - they didn't turn it over to their professor or their parents. They sent it to a political site so it would gain attention.

This story doesn't make sense. There's more to it than this.

I don't have to know the truth in order to see the lie.
So it's your contention that some faceless cabal insinuated itself into the lives of these young boys and manipulated them into being at the right place at the wrong time for Congressman Etheridge...and that this insidious illuminati rival urged them to ask just the right question (Do you support Obama's agenda?) to set said congressman off on an embarassing tirade and an assault on a minor.

You do see how ridiculous you sound, right?
 

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Have any evidence to back up this legitimate statement that their actions don't follow any sense of logic?
I fixed your question for you.

And yes, I've explained myself often enough now that I'm confident you're choosing not to acknowledge it rather than it actually being confusing to you.

Pretending it isn't there doesn't make it go away.

If anything, it's more telling that you're not curious as to why and how the trackers were there as well.
 
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jallman

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I fixed your question for you.

And yes, I've explained myself often enough now that I'm confident you're choosing not to acknowledge it rather than it actually being confusing to you.

Pretending it isn't there doesn't make it go away.

If anything, it's more telling that you're not curious as to why and how the trackers were there as well.
Well here's a deal: you present evidence of this and I will accept it. Until then, this is nothing but some unfounded conspiracy theory on your part. End of discussion.
 

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Well here's a deal: you present evidence of this and I will accept it. Until then, this is nothing but some unfounded conspiracy theory on your part. End of discussion.
I wasn't aware you got to tell me when the discussion ended. In fact, I'm still not aware of that.

I've laid out the reasons that the claim that these were just innocent kids doesn't make sense.

Some will choose to try to sweep that aside or ignore it. Others will look at it objectively.

Which you personally choose to do isn't really my problem. I feel I've been objective and credible in every comment I've made so far, without side-stepping anything and without playing partisan stunts. I think that others reading this thread would probably come to the same conclusion.

I'm content to let it sit where we're at if you are.
 

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Even some conservatives acknowledge that it's a set up, and even warn that this is a sign of things to come.

If these are the kinds of politics you really want to have at the forefront of discussions on what's good for our nation and our people, I guess that's your choice.

I'd rather discuss the issues, find logical solutions, and make our nation stronger rather than play at Jerry Springer goes to Washington.

I guess many would rather see their children grow up in a society dictated by who can sling the most mud, rather than one that makes decisions based on integrity and reason.

If you think for a moment that letting our own party get away with it is where it will end, you're mistaken. The Democrats are perfectly willing to engage in this kind of behavior if that door is opened. Only citizens who demand integrity in their political process can prevent what's already a very dishonest and manipulative political machine from becoming even more corrupt and dishonest.

I guess some folks would rather see their team win by cheating and have the result be an even bigger mess of American politics than to hold people accountable.

Bad news guys, know what's wrong with American politics? It's not the politicians. They're doing what they have to do to try to get in there and make some progress. It's the people that dictate the dishonesty - when we condone or allow it. This case is a perfect example.

Get used to ambushing, trackers, and this kind of political engagement. We no longer need to discuss any issues. We just need to engage in smut journalism. Who cares what the issue is, or what's wrong or right with the country or its policies? We needn't be bothered with intelligent discussions. Let's just sling mud and see who comes out dirtiest to decide the winner, the policy, and the future of our children.



Integrity is not a sometimes thing.
 
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Dr_Patrick

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Even some conservatives acknowledge that it's a set up, and even warn that this is a sign of things to come.

If these are the kinds of politics you really want to have at the forefront of discussions on what's good for our nation and our people, I guess that's your choice.

I'd rather discuss the issues, find logical solutions, and make our nation stronger rather than play at Jerry Springer goes to Washington.

I guess many would rather see their children grow up in a society dictated by who can sling the most mud, rather than one that makes decisions based on integrity and reason.

If you think for a moment that letting our own party get away with it is where it will end, you're mistaken. The Democrats are perfectly willing to engage in this kind of behavior if that door is opened. Only citizens who demand integrity in their political process can prevent what's already a very dishonest and manipulative political machine from becoming even more corrupt and dishonest.

I guess some folks would rather see their team win by cheating and have the result be an even bigger mess of American politics than to hold people accountable.

Bad news guys, know what's wrong with American politics? It's not the politicians. They're doing what they have to do to try to get in there and make some progress. It's the people that dictate the dishonesty - when we condone or allow it. This case is a perfect example.

Get used to ambushing, trackers, and this kind of political engagement. We no longer need to discuss any issues. We just need to engage in smut journalism. Who cares what the issue is, or what's wrong or right with the country or its policies? We needn't be bothered with intelligent discussions. Let's just sling mud and see who comes out dirtiest to decide the winner, the policy, and the future of our children.



Integrity is not a sometimes thing.
So one guy writing an opinion piece in the Washington Post turns into "some conservatives"? Interesting. Plus, he doesn't acknowledge that it's a set up, he theorizes that it's a possibility because we know nothing about these kids. And no, you clearly aren't interested in logical solutions because there is absolutely no evidence to suggest anything as nefarious as you are suggesting about these kids. Your assertion sounds like a conspiracy theory and nothing more, and until you have evidence to back up your claims you really have nothing.

Frankly, I could care less who they are. Even if they are a part of some big conspiracy, it still doesn't justify what Etheridge did.
 

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So one guy writing an opinion piece in the Washington Post turns into "some conservatives"?
No, the guy writing the opinion piece works for the Washington Post. I'd suspect he's pretty liberal. The person he spoke to that is a conservative political avtivist however...

Frankly, I could care less who they are.
Then you're exactly who I'm calling out.

Even if they are a part of some big conspiracy, it still doesn't justify what Etheridge did.
I never said it did.

I just find it fascinating that the very people who claim that politicians are deceitful are the same people who encourage it, force it to be that way, and cheer when it's done. The reason our political landscape is so full of lies isn't because of the politicians - they're just doing what they have to do to try to get in there and make some progress. The reason our politicians lie, cheat, and manipulate is because the people they work for force them to do so.
 

Dr_Patrick

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No, the guy writing the opinion piece works for the Washington Post. I'd suspect he's pretty liberal. The person he spoke to that is a conservative political avtivist however...
Yes, David Weigel works for the Washington Post. He primarily blogs on Libertarian and Conservative issues. Plus, he contributes to a Libertarian magazine, which makes me assume that he himself is a Conservative. I still fail to see how that turns into "some Conservatives". Plus, in your link he doesn't acknowledge that there is some vast conspiracy. He gives it as a possibility and acknowledges that we don't know right now. Frankly, I'd rather deal with what we do know than theorize about possibilities.

Then you're exactly who I'm calling out.
Well, good luck. :rofl

I never said it did.

I just find it fascinating that the very people who claim that politicians are deceitful are the same people who encourage it, force it to be that way, and cheer when it's done. The reason our political landscape is so full of lies isn't because of the politicians - they're just doing what they have to do to try to get in there and make some progress. The reason our politicians lie, cheat, and manipulate is because the people they work for force them to do so.
:rofl Are you kidding me? What happened to taking responsibility for your own actions?
 

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Yes, David Weigel works for the Washington Post. He primarily blogs on Libertarian and Conservative issues. Plus, he contributes to a Libertarian magazine, which makes me assume that he himself is a Conservative.
Okay, I accept that. I saw that he wrote for the Washington Post and kind of immediately presumed he was a liberal. My error there.

I accept your assertion and apologize for jumping to the conclusion that he was a liberal.


I still fail to see how that turns into "some Conservatives".
Well, how many conservatives we're talking about is unknown. I think that behind closed doors, the vast majority of conservatives would admit this was a blatant set up. I'm a conservative and I've done so publicly. Weigel is a conservative, and he seems to acknowledge that likelyhood as well. So does whomever his un-named source is.

There are other conservatives in this thread that have had the integrity and character to call a duck a duck as well - and probably among actual conservatives away from a place they could be quoted they'd confess the same thing.

So "some" meaning, "More than one, probably quite a few. I'd wager the vast majority. But they're not going to publicly admit it so we don't know exactly how many."

Enough that it merits some investigation if we genuinely care about our political system and social progress though.



Frankly, I'd rather deal with what we do know than theorize about possibilities.
And I'd rather at least attempt to discover the truth rather than accept the lie spoon-fed to us by political operatives. If we start accepting it now on our own behalf as conservatives, it won't be long before it's used against us as well.


:rofl Are you kidding me? What happened to taking responsibility for your own actions?
I've never argued we shouldn't take responsibility for our own actions. Quite the contrary in fact. Find any post in this thread by me that in any way excuses what Etheridge did. I can save you the trouble though; You won't find one.

On the contrary, what I've called for is some major accountability for Etheridge. I've also called for accountability for the political dishonesty, propaganda, and blatant degradation of our political system in order to try to discredit someone else's personal character rather than engage the issues.

If anything, I'm the only loud conservative voice I see in this thread that is calling for accountability. Accountability for every person involved, not just those that sit across the aisle from me.

I'm calling for that because I believe that the issues matter, because I believe character matters, and because to me integrity is not a sometimes thing.

Won't you join me?
 

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On the contrary, what I've called for is some major accountability for Etheridge. I've also called for accountability for the political dishonesty, propaganda, and blatant degradation of our political system in order to try to discredit someone else's personal character rather than engage the issues.
Irrelevant to the topic. Our political system is not at risk here, just one guys political career and possibly a criminal fine with probation. There is no dishonesty, no propaganda, no blatant degradation. You make up accusations with no to defend actions of a Congressman who assaults someone in broad daylight on the street and is caught on camera doing it. Where's YOUR accountability? I hope your at least getting paid for such nonsense because as you can tell, your persuasion powers are lacking.

If anything, I'm the only loud conservative voice I see in this thread that is calling for accountability. Accountability for every person involved, not just those that sit across the aisle from me.
Everyone's a loud conservative or claims to be. The only accountability needed here is for Etheridge and for your calls for that - you're to be commended. The rest of the creative writing story of some cabal of Republicans etc.etc... belongs in the conspiracy theory trash can.

I'm calling for that because I believe that the issues matter, because I believe character matters, and because to me integrity is not a sometimes thing.

Won't you join me?
The only character and integrity at question here is that of Etheridge and no, I for one do not join with fakes who cannot be honest. I hope that "join me" bupkus was some sort of badly executed sarcasm.
 

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Fair enough, Ockham.

To me, the entire context of a situation matters. I don't know how one can claim to make good decisions and judgments without knowing the full situation, but if that's your choice so be it.

I also very much stand by the statement that in order for my stance to be strong, for my party to be strong, and to ensure that I'm living up to my responsibility as a citizen, I need to demand integrity. From myself and from my allies, as well as from my adversaries.

I'm not here to "win."

I'm here to make the world a better place.

I don't know how we can do that with only parts of the information and without being honest about things.
 

Ockham

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Fair enough, Ockham.

To me, the entire context of a situation matters. I don't know how one can claim to make good decisions and judgments without knowing the full situation, but if that's your choice so be it.
You've presented no evidence there is such a context therefore, there's nothing else to consider until such time as that occurs.

I also very much stand by the statement that in order for my stance to be strong, for my party to be strong, and to ensure that I'm living up to my responsibility as a citizen, I need to demand integrity. From myself and from my allies, as well as from my adversaries.
You claimed to be a conservative... what "party" are you referring to? And let me point out that's exactly the problem and why you've gotten such hard push back ... you're for "party" instead of for "equal justice under the law". Frankly, I find it ironic as hell that you're claiming integrity when your fictional demonization of these kids who asked this Congressman a question has been so broad and conspiracy like. You cannot claim to represent truth, morals and integrity when it's obvious that your words do not represent those same things. That's called "hypocrisy".

I'm not here to "win."
Let me break a sad fact to you --- there is no "win" on the internet. There's no final game, this isn't Highlander where "there can be only one" and you claim the prize of the universe. You don't get even a stupid teddy bear for "win" - there's just sharing ideas, opinions and growth as an individual. If you cannot grasp that concept you will be guaranteed failure. Grow up.

I'm here to make the world a better place.
Do that by being honest, trustworthy and credible. All three things your posts in this thread have not been. Turn over a new leaf.

I don't know how we can do that with only parts of the information and without being honest about things.
I just told you how YOU can do that - you cannot influence "we". Start with yourself.
 

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Frankly, I could care less who they are. Even if they are a part of some big conspiracy, it still doesn't justify what Etheridge did.
That sums it up as to how this society is all about not taking responsibility for their own actions.
Over and over we see it where everyone wants to play the "victim card" no matter what they did.

Just like out here in the Northwest where Senator Larry Craig was caught in an airport men's restroom and he wanted to play the poor victim of a sting operation.

Am so tired of wimps.
 
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