Ernesto "Che" Guevara

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

ToT supports concentration camps.

WTF are you talking about?

 

[Khayembii Communique]

WTF are you talking about?

I have proof, and it's common knowledge, and stuff.


Oh, sorry, I'm just trying out your debate tactic. It's quite fun, really.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I have proof, and it's common knowledge, and stuff.


Oh, sorry, I'm just trying out your debate tactic. It's quite fun, really.

It is common knowledge that Che ran concentration camps and gays were locked up, here's 10 more sources these just on the concentration camps:

The Killing Machine: Che Guevara, from Communist Firebrand to ...

[SIZE=-1]The metamorphosis of Che Guevara into a capitalist brand is not new, ..... Concentration camps were one form in which dogmatic power was employed to ...
www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1535 - 55k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE] Che Guevara and Hollywood

[SIZE=-1]Che Guevara, the toast of the Oscars, was a cowardly sadistic thug who murdered ... This means the first inmates of his concentration camps were probably ...
www.brookesnews.com/051804Guevara.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Che Guevara: Assassin and Bumbler by Humberto Fontova ...

[SIZE=-1]Che Guevara was monumentally vain and epically stupid. ... In 1961 Che even established a special concentration camp at Guanacahibes in extreme Western Cuba ...
Che Guevara: Assassin and Bumbler by Humberto Fontova -- Capitalism Magazine - 28k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
The Che Paradox by Victoria B. Bekiempis -- Capitalism Magazine

[SIZE=-1]Che Guevara executed "counter-revolutionary" children and helped jail dissidents in concentration camps; yet, more than 30 years after his death, ...
The Che Paradox by Victoria B. Bekiempis -- Capitalism Magazine - 18k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Che Guevara: Assassin and Bumbler – by Humberto Fontova

[SIZE=-1]"At The Sundance Film Festival Robert Redford's film on Che Guevara "The Motorcycle .... In 1961 Che even established a special concentration camp at ...
archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/2/23/171252.shtml - 30k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Che at the Oscars by Humberto Fontova

[SIZE=-1]There it was: Carlos' elegantly embroidered Che Guevara t-shirt. ... This means the first inmates of his concentration camps were probably guilty of the ...
Che at the Oscars by Humberto Fontova - 14k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
What does Che Guevara have to do with AIDS? | FP Passport

[SIZE=-1]And here's what I mean: The labor camp system Che founded, most notably ... at gunpoint into concentration camps organized on the Guanahacabibes mold. ...
blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/6812 - 26k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Fausta's blog

[SIZE=-1]According to Jorge Castañeda, one of Guevara's biographers, a Basque Catholic sympathetic ... AVL describes Che's start-up: the concentration camp system, ...
faustasblog.com/2005/07/more-on-mass-murderer-nicknamed-che.html - 54k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Go to the Che Guevara exhibition at the V & A museum on 43 Things

[SIZE=-1]He set up a string of concentration camps. ... That Che Guevara himself was young and charismatic and brutally murdered with the support of the CIA at only ...
www.43things.com/things/view/756607/go-to-the-che-guevara-exhibition-at-the-v-a-museum - 20k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
che guevara

[SIZE=-1]Che Guevara was the Castro regime's chief executioner. ...... named Guanahacabibes in extreme Western Cuba, Che initiated Cuba's concentration camp system. ...
www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2054 - 113k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]

 

[Khayembii Communique]

We've already gone through this, ToT. Nice try, though.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

We've already gone through this, ToT. Nice try, though.

Ya those were new and different sources, its well documented and not really subject to debate as it's a matter of the historical record.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Ya those were new and different sources, its well documented and not really subject to debate as it's a matter of the historical record.

Then give me substantial documentation. Again, I want sources that could be used in a university paper, not some random sites off the internet built by people like you.

 

[Joby]

Do you believe every piece of propaganda that you read?

No, I avoid the crap that GE, AOL-TimeWarner, Viacom, Disney, and NewsCorp pump.

Mossadeq dissolved Parliament through a fraudulent referendum in which he got a 99.9% yay vote then he granted himself dictatorial powers, the Shah was the head of state under the Iranian Constitutional monarchy and had the power to remove the Prime Minister which he did, it was a counter-coup not a coup.

A counter-coup?

In order to instill an extremely authoritarian regime, even by the regions standards, and replace a man who was elected.

Yeah, way to promote freedom...:roll:

Arbenz was allying with the Soviets, he himself was a Communist, and much like Castro he began massive land confiscation and redistribution campaigns the likes of which when tried always result in economic catastrophy and more often then not in mass starvation.

And much like the rest of Latin America, most of the land was owned by American Corporations, principally United Fruit. Do the people of a country have any right to the land within it, or can a 'banana dictatorship' impse it's will on a populace forever?

In the 11 days after Arbenz's resignation five successive juntas occupied the presidential palace, each more amenable to American demands than the last, with Armas himself finally taking office at the end. He proved to be embarrassingly inept and his corrupt and repressive policies renewed civil conflict unseen in the country since before the revolution of 1944. An unexpected result of the coup was the ferocious condemnation of it by the international press. Le Monde and The Times both attacked America's "modern form of economic colonialism." There was a widespread and long-lasting protest of the coup in Latin America, with Guatemala becoming a symbol of resistance to American designs for the region................After the campaign, the CIA sent a handful of agents to Guatemala in order to gather and analyze government documents that would, amongst other things, find evidence that would support the CIA's belief that Guatemala was a rising Soviet puppet state, in an operation that was known as Operation PBHISTORY. Despite amassing well over 150,000 pages, they found very little to substantiate the key premise of the invasion.[6] The socialism that gained influence under Arbenz's presidency in fact had no ties to the Soviet Union. Nevertheless, some private sector leaders and the military began to believe that Arbenz represented a Communist threat and supported his overthrow despite most Guatemalans' attachment to the original ideals of the 1944 uprising.

1954 Guatemalan coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately for the Cuban people it was unsuccessful because now they live under a brutal tyrant who has destroyed their economy and turned the daughters of Cuba into whores for the international sex tourism.

The very reason it was unsucessful is because, unlike the predictions of the Joint Chiefs and the Kennedy "Brain Trust," the Cuban people rose up to squash the invaders, not Castro.

The CIA's 'army,' was defeated under the leadership of Fidel Castro and none other than Che himself.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Then give me substantial documentation.

I provided dozens upon dozens of sources I'm not playing your little games. The Guanacahibes concentration camp existed it is not a ****ing debatable point its a matter for the historical record, I provided dozens of sources but if you want you can take your *** to the library and look it up.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

No, I avoid the crap that GE, AOL-TimeWarner, Viacom, Disney, and NewsCorp pump.

lmfao yep you ignore real reporters and journalists and believe jerkoff editorialists with agendas.

A counter-coup?

In order to instill an extremely authoritarian regime, even by the regions standards, and replace a man who was elected.

Yeah, way to promote freedom...:roll:

Yes a counter-coup, Mossadeq dissolved parliament through a fraudulent referendum in which he got 99.9% of the yay vote, and then granted himself dictatorial powers, under the Iranian Constitution the Shah was the head of state and could remove the PM, which he did, thus it was a counter-coup, and your assertions that Iran was extremely authoritarian even compared to the regions standards is quite simply false, and proof that you really don't have a god damn clue what you're talking about, Iran was a Constitutional monarchy and the most liberal nation in the Muslim world, infact it was to liberal and to tolerant which is why the Shah was overthrown IE he let Khomenie live and took the educational institutions out of the hands of the religious clerics.

And much like the rest of Latin America, most of the land was owned by American Corporations, principally United Fruit. Do the people of a country have any right to the land within it, or can a 'banana dictatorship' impse it's will on a populace forever?

1954 Guatemalan coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No "the people" do not have the right to another persons property, nationality is irrelevant. Furthermore; this is just Communist propaganda, the land reforms would have destroyed their economy and they almost always lead to mass starvation.

The very reason it was unsucessful is because, unlike the predictions of the Joint Chiefs and the Kennedy "Brain Trust," the Cuban people rose up to squash the invaders, not Castro.

No the reason why it was unsuccessful was because we didn't give them airsupport so they never made it off the beach. Now if you think that Cuba is better off now than if they had been liberated from Castro then you seriously are delusional and a very misinformed individual.

The CIA's 'army,' was defeated under the leadership of Fidel Castro and none other than Che himself.

Unfortunately for the Cuban people who have suffered for decades as a result of your tyrannical heros, you are an evil man and I have some friends down in Miami I would love to introduce you to.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

I provided dozens upon dozens of sources I'm not playing your little games.

No you didn't. You provided a short list of shabby sources that you simply copy and pasted from a google search; you probably didn't even look at the articles.

The Guanacahibes concentration camp existed it is not a ****ing debatable point its a matter for the historical record

Really? Then why is it that I can only find information on this on websites that are so blatantly biased that they're factually inaccurate? In fact, it seems that all of these sites are just copy and paste jobs from this article, which itself is riddled with factual inaccuracies.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

No you didn't.

Now you're just lying.

You provided a short list

Two short lists consisting of dozens upon dozens of sources which validated my claim.

Really? Then why is it that I can only find information on this on websites that are so blatantly biased that they're factually inaccurate? In fact, it seems that all of these sites are just copy and paste jobs from this article, which itself is riddled with factual inaccuracies.

You don't ****ing have a clue what you're talking about the Guanacahibes concentration camp is well documented and I have presented dozens of websites to that effect here's some more:

Che at the Marches by Humberto Fontova

[SIZE=-1]Che himself christened the first and most notorious of them at Guanacahibes, Cuba's version of Siberia, but featuring broiling heat rather than cold. ...
www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova58.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE] Illegals Love Mexico and Che

[SIZE=-1]Siberia's GULAG was soon flooded with victims. Che must have taken note. ... towers and guard dogs at Guanacahibes took care of the resulting flood of Cuban ...
archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/5/29/151557.shtml - 29k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Article

[SIZE=-1]He emulated the procedure perfectly and the barbed wire, machine gun towers and guard dogs at Guanacahibes took care of the resulting flood of Cuban ...
Article - 31k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Mott's Blog: Who was Che Guevara? What if Hilter Had Been Photogenic?

[SIZE=-1]This is the Cuban gulag. A Cuban-American writer, Humberto Fontova, described Guevara as .... camp at Guanacahibes in extreme Western Cuba for "delinquents. ...
mottsblog.blogspot.com/2005/03/who-was-che-guevara-what-if-hilter-had.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Re: Por y para siempre seras el Che - Noticias y Política de ...

[SIZE=-1] - [ Translate this page ][/SIZE][SIZE=-1]As would befit a Stalinist, Guevara pioneered Cuba’s gulag system. ..... the first and most notorious of them at Guanacahibes, Cuba's version of Siberia, ...
foro.univision.com/.../board/print?board.id=americalatina&message.id=11843&page=1&format=all - 79k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
The MotorCycle Diaries and Che Guevara [Archive] - Jatland Forums

[SIZE=-1]Fontova fleed Cuba after being incarcerated for several years in Cuba. .... the first and most notorious of them at Guanacahibes, Cuba's version of Siberia, ...
The MotorCycle Diaries and Che Guevara [Archive] - Jatland Forums - 23k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
杀人机器－－真实的切-格瓦拉- 时政评论- 自由中国论坛- Powered by ...

[SIZE=-1] - [ Translate this page ][/SIZE][SIZE=-1]He emulated the procedure perfectly and thebarbed wire, machine gun towers and guard dogs at Guanacahibes tookcare of the resulting flood of Cuban ...
zyzg.us/viewthread.php?tid=163117&highlight= - 250k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
MND: News and Commentary Since 2001 » Humberto Fontova

[SIZE=-1]So what's going on in Cuba? Nobody has seen nor heard from either Fidel or his ... Mark Cuban recently signed the cashiered and disgraced anchor to host a ...
mensnewsdaily.com/author/humberto-fontova/ - 144k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Aussie News & Views: Che at the Marches ( or What the useful ...

[SIZE=-1]So recalls one of his military trainers, the Cuban, Miguel Sanchez. ... the first and most notorious of them at Guanacahibes, Cuba's version of Siberia, ...
aussie_news_views.typepad.com/aussie_news_views/2006/05/che_at_the_marc.html - 76k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Yayyyyyyy

"Really? Then why is it that I can only find information on this on websites that are so blatantly biased that they're factually inaccurate? In fact, it seems that all of these sites are just copy and paste jobs from this article, which itself is riddled with factual inaccuracies."

I'll just repeat myself since you just provided some more inaccurate, shoddy sources that would never have a chance in an academic paper. HINT: These aren't sources.

 

[mikhail]

In his writings guevara claimed speaking of china there was “not a single discrepancy” between maos view and his own.He was keen on the idea of the soviet union starting a nuclear war at one point and he banned santa claus.

 

[new coup for you]

There absolutely were camps in cuba. that's a fact. how extensive they were has been laughatbly distored by ffboot boy conservatives.


I UNDERSTNT the horror of communism. CUBA was not ukraine.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

There absolutely were camps in cuba. that's a fact. how extensive they were has been laughatbly distored by ffboot boy conservatives.

I know for a fact there were "camps" set up to contain those infected with the AIDS virus when it was first discovered, as they didn't know what it was or how it was transmitted. However, these camps were hardly anything other than infirmaries and they were short lived.

As for work camps, I wouldn't doubt they existed, but I see nothing wrong with them. Seems more productive to me than throwing criminals in prison.

I UNDERSTNT the horror of communism. CUBA was not ukraine.

Why are you referencing Ukraine?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I know for a fact there were "camps" set up to contain those infected with the AIDS virus when it was first discovered, a

lmfao wow the propaganda coming out of your ****ing mouth is disgusting AND laughable, yes that's why they put homosexuals into ****ing work camps with signs reading: "work will make men out of you" how do you sleep at night knowing that you're a shill for a totalitarian tyrant?

These camps were started in the mid 1960s the AIDs virus wasn't discovered until 1980, YOU ARE A LIAR AND A PROPAGANDIST!

As for work camps, I wouldn't doubt they existed, but I see nothing wrong with them. Seems more productive to me than throwing criminals in prison.

They weren't and AREN'T criminals they are ****ing political dissidents, that's the whole ****ing point.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

There absolutely were camps in cuba. that's a fact. how extensive they were has been laughatbly distored by ffboot boy conservatives.


I UNDERSTNT the horror of communism. CUBA was not ukraine.

Yes because as a % of their population Cuba imprisoned MORE political prisoners than China OR the USSR.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

lmfao wow the propaganda coming out of your ****ing mouth is disgusting AND laughable

I would say the same to you.

yes that's why they put homosexuals into ****ing work camps with signs reading: "work will make men out of you"

They put AIDs victims in quarantine; that's a little different than what you have said. And, as usual, you are completely unable to source this aside from probably numerous propaganda sites that offer no academic credibility.

These camps were started in the mid 1960s the AIDs virus wasn't discovered until 1980, YOU ARE A LIAR AND A PROPAGANDIST!

No, those were work camps.

They weren't and AREN'T criminals they are ****ing political dissidents, that's the whole ****ing point.

8. Everyone ever arrested under a Communist regime was most likely innocent of any crime. Communists only arrested harmless poets and political prophets who had a beautiful message to share with the world.
Guide to Anti-Communism

You really need to brush up on your anti-communist skills; I see a bunch here off the list that I haven't seen you use yet.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I would say the same to you.



They put AIDs victims in quarantine;

No they put gays in work camps for effiminate behavior starting decades before AIDs was even discovered.

No, those were work camps.

Yes work camps for gays to and I quote "make men out of them."

8. Everyone ever arrested under a Communist regime was most likely innocent of any crime.

Many many many of them were but it's impossible to know for sure how many as their Judiciary was and is a political tool for the Communist party, "anti-revolutionary behavior" is still a crime in Cuba.

Many thousands of political dissidents have been executed and many many more have been falsely imprisoned here's just a few examples of the types of people who have been locked up for many many years for nothing:

Notable Prisoners of conscience

• In 1960, Armando Valladares was working at the Cuban Postal Savings Bank when agents of the Ministry of Communications handed him a card bearing a communist slogan and told him to put it on his worktable. The 23-year-old Valladares refused. Astonished, the agents asked him if he had anything against Castro. Valladares answered that if Castro was a communist, he did. Valladares was convicted on a charge of placing bombs in public places and was sentenced to thirty years in prison. His supporters contend that he was never part of the Batista police as alleged by Castro supporters (as Valladares was only 19 at the time of the revolution), and that his imprisonment was the result of his vocal opposition to the Castro government. Conservative author David Horowitz has called him a "Human Rights Hero." Valladares claims to have been tortured and humiliated while on a hunger strike to protest prison abuses; he claims the guards denied him water until he became delirious, and proceeded to urinate in his mouth and on his face. Valladares was released from prison after twenty-two years upon the intercession of France's Socialist President François Mitterrand.
• In 1973, gay writer Reinaldo Arenas was sent to prison after being charged and convicted of 'ideological deviation' and for publishing abroad without official consent. He escaped from prison and tried to leave Cuba by launching himself from the shore on a tire inner tube. The attempt failed and he was re-arrested near Lenin Park and imprisoned at the notorious El Morro Castle alongside murderers and rapists. After escaping Cuba, Arenas described the horrors he endured under the Cuban regime in his autobiography Antes que anochezca (1992), English translation Before Night Falls (1993).
• On August 28, 1998, a Havana court sentenced Reynaldo Alfaro García, a member of the Democratic Solidarity Party, to three years in prison for "spreading enemy propaganda" and "rumour-mongering."
• Desi Mendoza, a Cuban doctor, was imprisoned for making statements criticizing Cuba's response to an epidemic of dengue fever in Santiago de Cuba which he alleged had caused several deaths. Dr. Mendoza had previously been fired from his job in a Cuban hospital three years earlier for establishing an independent medical association. He was later released due to ill-health, subject to his leaving the country. [10] [11]
• Oscar Elías Biscet, a medical doctor, has been sentenced to jail for 25 years in horrendous conditions for his peaceful, but vocal opposition to Castro.
• In early 2003 dozens of persons, including independent journalists, librarians and other opponents of the Castro government were jailed after summary show trials, with some sentences in excess of 20 years, on the charge of receiving money from the United States to carry out anti-government activity.
• An Amnesty International report, CUBA: fundamental freedoms still under attack from Amnesty International calls for the "Cuban authorities to release all prisoners of conscience immediately and unconditionally" and to "revoke all legislation that restricts freedom of expression, assembly and association, and to put a halt to all actions to harass and intimidate dissidents, journalists, and human rights defenders."
• Jorge Luis García Antúnez was reported to have been released from prison in April 2007 after serving his full sentence of 17 years and 34 days after having, at the age of 25, shouted slogans against Fidel Castro. García Antúnez was convicted of sabotage after authorities accused him of setting fire to sugar cane fields, sabotage, spreading "enemy propaganda", and being in illegal possession of a weapon.[28][29]

 

[new coup for you]

I like that conservatives have to interupt people even on an internet forum.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

I like how ToT posts the same shallow, disproven propaganda repeatedly even after it's been utterly destroyed.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I like how ToT posts the same shallow, disproven propaganda repeatedly even after it's been utterly destroyed.

This from the guy that says the work camps for Gays was really a quarantine for AIDs despite the fact that they were created decades before the AIDs virus was even discovered. Go look into the Amnesty International report regarding political prisoners in Cuba and then talk to me.

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

What are your thoughts on Ernesto "Che" Guevara?

The man, the myth, the legend? What he symbolizes or represents?
What you know about his real life? What you think about the commercialization of his image?

Anything and everything.

Tell me. Please.

Che was a force of nature, i personally respect the guy, not many would have the intelligence and courage to wage a guerrilla war on the imperialist forces of america..I like his thoughts towards america to boot, it was a shame that once Che got Castro into power he was murdered in Bolivia, i believe Cuba would have benefitted more from Che's ideas than those of the Jesuit stooge Castro.

 

[new coup for you]

he didn't "wage a war" he wandered around in the jungle doing nothing substantive. and then they killed him.

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

he didn't "wage a war" he wandered around in the jungle doing nothing substantive. and then they killed him.

lol.

In regards to Che i also respect how the man of relatively established parents and traditional middle class upbringing/education would go on to use his intelligence and knowledge as a doctor to help the poor as opposed to using it to get rich.

A good man it's fair to say.