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Ernesto "Che" Guevara

Dragonfly

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What are your thoughts on Ernesto "Che" Guevara?

The man, the myth, the legend? What he symbolizes or represents?
What you know about his real life? What you think about the commercialization of his image?

Anything and everything.

Tell me. Please.
 

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Wow. Not one single comment yet?????

There's hardly a forum on the internet where at least one person does not have Che as their avatar.

The branding of his image is so mainstream now I think most don't know who, or what he was. They just think it's cool.

Mr. Anti-establishment.
Mr. Anti-authority.
Mr. Rebellion.
 

RightOfCenter

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There used to be a guy with Che as his avatar. I think he ran away when nearly every person on the forum debunked his ideas. He called us facists and ran away to type in his blog.
 

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There used to be a guy with Che as his avatar. I think he ran away when nearly every person on the forum debunked his ideas. He called us facists and ran away to type in his blog.

Ha. Not surprised at all.

I posted this on another forum and got some interesting remarks from Che supporters.

BBC NEWS | Americas | CIA man recounts Che Guevara's death <-- clicky

"Most people don't know the real Che Guevara - the Che Guevara who wrote that he was thirsty for blood, the Che who assassinated thousands of people without any regard for any real legal process."
 

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Che Guevara was evil, I think. I don't believe he REALLY cared about anything, he just seemed to need a cause, something to fight for, something to give him purpose. He was a bastard totalitarian bastard who thirsted for violence, so I can't respect him. It's just a damn shame that thousands of the worlds teenager who want to 'fight the man' think that wearing a Che t-shirt and claiming to follow Marxism means they're a revolutionary...yet they don't rebel against anything.

The mans a prick who has inspired many fools with his prickery.
 

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Che Guevara was evil, I think. I don't believe he REALLY cared about anything, he just seemed to need a cause, something to fight for, something to give him purpose. He was a bastard totalitarian bastard who thirsted for violence, so I can't respect him.

Not everything is as black and white as you make it out to be.
 

Lerxst

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Che was a liar, a thief, and a murderer. He also oversaw the torture and murder of several prisoners. He was absolutely no better than those he opposed, and in many ways was worse.

He was romanticized by those who really didn't know the reality of what it was he was doing. He died a criminals death, one befitting a person of his character.
 
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Ha. Not surprised at all.

I posted this on another forum and got some interesting remarks from Che supporters.

BBC NEWS | Americas | CIA man recounts Che Guevara's death <-- clicky

Che was a liar, a thief, and a murderer. He also oversaw the torture and murder of several prisoners. He was absolutely no better than those he opposed, and in many ways was worse.

These claims are certainly debatable.

He died a criminals death, one befitting a person of his character.

You support execution without trial?
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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What are your thoughts on Ernesto "Che" Guevara?

The man, the myth, the legend? What he symbolizes or represents?
What you know about his real life? What you think about the commercialization of his image?

Anything and everything.

Tell me. Please.

He ran death camps in Castro's totalitarian police state, those who support him support the Democide of gays, liberals, and those accused of "anti-revolutionary" acts.

He was a terrorist and a criminal end of story.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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Wow. Not one single comment yet?????

There's hardly a forum on the internet where at least one person does not have Che as their avatar.

This is a libertarian heavy site, even those who don't agree with each other on this board about just about anything do come together to put Communists and Fascists in their place. Unless of course they're Islamofascists.
 
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Ah ToT, old friend. I was wondering when you'd reply to one of my posts!

Che certainly did, quid pro quo.

In case you didn't get my point, I was using this assertion against Jeff; to simplify it further so you completely comprehend my point, I was implying that Jeff is no better than Che, for he claims that Che was a "murderer" for advocating such a thing that he himself supports.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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Ah ToT, old friend. I was wondering when you'd reply to one of my posts!



In case you didn't get my point, I was using this assertion against Jeff; to simplify it further so you completely comprehend my point, I was implying that Jeff is no better than Che, for he claims that Che was a "murderer" for advocating such a thing that he himself supports.

Enh, I don't consider killing murderers to be murder I consider it to be justice. Though I don't condone extra-judicial killings one must make exceptions especially in cases like this, because when these type of people get imprisoned for their attempted coups it always has a way of turning around and helping their cause, look at Hitler, Castro, Hussein, and Chavez, to name a few, all four were not executed on the spot for their attempted overthrows of their respective republics, then through the liberal (in the classical sense) judiciaries inherent in Republics they got off with very light sentences and then turned it into propaganda coups paving their way for their rise to power.
 
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Enh, I don't consider killing murderers to be murder I consider it to be justice.

And how do you determine if one is a murderer? Isn't that what a trial is for?

Though I don't condone extra-judicial killings

Though you certainly just did.

one must make exceptions especially in cases like this, because when these type of people get imprisoned for their attempted coups it always has a way of turning around and helping their cause, look at Hitler, Castro, Hussein, and Chavez, to name a few, all four were not executed on the spot for their attempted overthrows of their respective republics, then through the liberal (in the classical sense) judiciaries inherent in Republics they got off with very light sentences and then turned it into propaganda coups paving their way for their rise to power.

So you are claiming that law only works to a certain extent, and after that we should dispense vigilante justice? What you fail to realize, of course, is that entire social movements such as the rise of the NAZI's in Germany, the Communists in Cuba, the Ba'athists in Iraq, or the Bolivarians in Venezuela isn't merely due to the rise of such individuals. That is a backwards analysis; in fact, these individuals come to be where they are because of the movements present and the conditions in the country at the time and not despite it.

The rise of the NAZI's wasn't due to Hitler; the rise of the Communists wasn't due to Castro; the rise of the Ba'athists wasn't due to Sadam; and the rise of the Bolivarians wasn't due to Chavez.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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And how do you determine if one is a murderer? Isn't that what a trial is for?


So would you be against it if a special ops operative took out OBL on the battlefield?

Though you certainly just did.
In certain cases, yes.

So you are claiming that law only works to a certain extent, and after that we should dispense vigilante justice?
I would hardly consider troops killing someone engaged in a war against the republic to be vigilante justice.

What you fail to realize, of course, is that entire social movements such as the rise of the NAZI's in Germany, the Communists in Cuba, the Ba'athists in Iraq, or the Bolivarians in Venezuela isn't merely due to the rise of such individuals. That is a backwards analysis; in fact, these individuals come to be where they are because of the movements present and the conditions in the country at the time and not despite it.

The rise of the NAZI's wasn't due to Hitler; the rise of the Communists wasn't due to Castro; the rise of the Ba'athists wasn't due to Sadam; and the rise of the Bolivarians wasn't due to Chavez.
I seriously doubt that without Hitler, Chavez, Castro, or Hussein that these movements would have come to power the way that they did. Sure the movements existed but it was their leaders that brought them to power and prominence. Sometimes cutting the head off the snake works.
 
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So would you be against it if a special ops operative took out OBL on the battlefield?

I don't think I've taken a position on this matter in this thread at all, so it is irrelevant what I believe.

In certain cases, yes.

So don't claim that you don't.

I would hardly consider troops killing someone engaged in a war against the republic to be vigilante justice.

Obviously killing in battle is a different situation than capturing these people. I clearly wasn't talking about killing in battle.

I seriously doubt that without Hitler, Chavez, Castro, or Hussein that these movements would have come to power the way that they did.

Certainly not in the same form, but probably to the same extent. The only reason these people were able to rise to power as they did were because they had the support of the masses. Obviously without them another would have inevitably risen. Movements like these aren't made by leaders; they make the leaders.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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So don't claim that you don't.

Some people are to dangerous to be left alive.



Certainly not in the same form, but probably to the same extent. The only reason these people were able to rise to power as they did were because they had the support of the masses. Obviously without them another would have inevitably risen. Movements like these aren't made by leaders; they make the leaders.

The only reason why they obtained the support of the masses is because of their charismatic leaders.
 
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Some people are to dangerous to be left alive.

That's fine that you believe that; I just don't want you claiming that you believe in something you actually don't believe in (i.e. judicial proceedings, or law).

The only reason why they obtained the support of the masses is because of their charismatic leaders.

Yes, they tricked millions of people into supporting them, even before they had the power to do so (because, after all, these movements had certainly started before these leaders rose to power)!:lol:
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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That's fine that you believe that; I just don't want you claiming that you believe in something you actually don't believe in (i.e. judicial proceedings, or law).

"[a] strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means." -- Thomas Jefferson

Sorry you can believe in the rule of law and still recognize its limitations.

Yes, they tricked millions of people into supporting them, even before they had the power to do so (because, after all, these movements had certainly started before these leaders rose to power)!:lol:

Sorry none of these movements had the massive support needed until the charismatic leaders arose.
 
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Sorry none of these movements had the massive support needed until the charismatic leaders arose.

Actually, these movements started to gain massive support as they gained organizational cohesion, focus and direction; from this process leaders inevitably rose.

Leaders can only be leaders when they are recognized as such.
 

Lerxst

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In case you didn't get my point, I was using this assertion against Jeff; to simplify it further so you completely comprehend my point, I was implying that Jeff is no better than Che, for he claims that Che was a "murderer" for advocating such a thing that he himself supports.

Che' was not "murdered." Murder is a criminal act. He was executed by the Bolivian military for inciting an insurgency. I know some classify it as an assassination, but he was captured leading rebels against the government and was summarily executed. There is a difference. The case against Che' had been made ad nauseum.

Che' actually murdered people, he stole from people, he oversaw the torture of people. All in a bid to attain power and hold it. He was a criminal.

Your attempt to compare me to Che' was based upon extremely weak reason. Logical fallacies don't hold water here.
 

Lerxst

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And let me be clear, I don't advocate the death penalty. But it is what it is. Che' was killed while leading armed insurgents, executed summarily on the battlefield. That is war.
 

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And let me be clear, I don't advocate the death penalty. But it is what it is. Che' was killed while leading armed insurgents, executed summarily on the battlefield. That is war.

According to the BBC link I provided "Che" was not killed in battle.


According to Mr Rodriguez's version of events, the atmosphere was so friendly that Che willingly agreed to the photograph and even laughed when Rodriguez said: "Watch the birdie, Comandante".


Che Guevara came to Bolivia after trying to foment revolution in Africa
An hour or so after the photo was taken, Che was killed.

Felix Rodriguez received the order from the Bolivian military high command. There was a simple code: 500 meant Che Guevara, 600 dead, 700 alive.

500 - 600 was the command.

Mr Rodriguez wanted confirmation on the crackly radio line. It was repeated: 500 - 600.

Mr Rodriguez broke the news to Che that there was to be no trial.

"Che turned white... before saying: 'It's better this way, I should have died in combat.'"


Mr Rodriguez ordered the soldier who pulled the trigger to aim carefully, to remain consistent with the Bolivian government's story that Che had been killed in action during a clash with the Bolivian army.

He was held captive for at least an hour, and photographed. According to the article that is.

He may have been captured while leading insurgents, but he was not killed in battle. Executed is a reasonable word. It may have been better to postpone the execution until after a trial.
 

Lerxst

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I am aware of the circumstances. Maybe I should have said he was captured on the battlefield and then executed shortly thereafter. He was not murdered as was asserted by another member here.
 
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