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Erdogan fans anti-Israeli, Anti-American sentiments for political gain

JoeMama

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All this for votes...and international media actually fell for his crap (like they seem to do all the time).
Nice to see a mainstream Turkish newspaper picking up on this (too bad the rest of the world can't).

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan appears set to milk the popularity he gained in the streets of Turkey and the Middle East after the Marmara crisis in which nine Turks were killed by Israeli forces in a seriously botched up military operation.

It is almost as if he was waiting for a new crisis with Israel to be able to work the streets in order to regain some of the political ground his ruling Justice and Development Party, or AKP, has been loosing over bread and butter issues at home.

He and his party executives are clearly worried that the reinvigorated Republican Peoples Party, or CHP, may make headway given the successful manner in which its new leader, Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu, has been hitting at the government over topics that really matter for the average man on the street. He is also concerned that the Saadet (Felicity) Party, the other Islamist party, may steal votes from the AKP given the rising dissatisfaction among the public.
...
So we see him increasingly turning up the volume of his demagoguery, and hitting at Israel and the United States at every opportunity that presents itself. No doubt he is keeping a close eye on the “political rating meter” as he sends his crowds to paroxysms of delirious applause with his remarks, some of which smack openly of anti-Semitism and reflect a growing anti-Western tendency.
...
Over the weekend he went further and openly named the U.S. this time, thus revealing what lies in his heart-of-hearts. This is what he had to say while addressing an adoring crowd in Rize, on the Black Sea coast, where people are not only religious but also ultra-nationalist.

“They are asking us what Turkey is doing in the Middle East, in Palestine. Why is Turkey bothered about Gaza? But could they not be asked in return what America is doing in Iraq? What is it doing in Palestine? Could it not be asked what is it doing in Afghanistan? What are France, Britain, and Holland, and so on, doing in these places?”
Hurriyet Daily News Link to Article
 

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I think he's just doing all this to increase Turkey's chances of joining the EU.
 

Al Battani

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I think it's highly cynical to suggest that a head of state expressing outrage at the deaths of nine of his citizens is done solely for political gain...

Would we be saying the same thing if Obama made a speech condemning an attack on American citizens by the Iranian Republican Guard? Would we still think it was solely for political purposes if Israel were condemned for using the identities of foreign citizens in order to assassinate a senior Hamas figure on foreign soil....

Some food for thought....
 

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I think it's highly cynical to suggest that a head of state expressing outrage at the deaths of nine of his citizens is done solely for political gain...

Would we be saying the same thing if Obama made a speech condemning an attack on American citizens by the Iranian Republican Guard? Would we still think it was solely for political purposes if Israel were condemned for using the identities of foreign citizens in order to assassinate a senior Hamas figure on foreign soil....

Some food for thought....
On the 30th of May, 1972, three Japanese tourists have landed at the Lod airport in Tel-Aviv (Now named the Ben-Gurion airport). They have retrieved their bags, opened them up, took out three AK-47 assault rifles and some hand grenades and have started shooting everyone inside the airport, killing 26 people and injuring 80.
Apparently those three 'tourists' were members of a Japanese far-left communist organization, called "The Japanese Red Army", and they were acting on behalf of the PFLP, a Palestinian terrorist organization.

One of the terrorists has committed suicide using a grenade during the massacre, another was shot to death by security, and the third captured and was sentenced to life. (Only to be released later on in 1985, in one of those exchange agreements with a terrorist organization where Israel releases 1150 terrorists and criminals for 3 of its captured soldiers)

The Japanese government has issued an apology to Israel for its citizens' involvement in the massacre, and has paid over one million dollars to the victims and their families as a compensation.

Now to our current story, on the 31st of May, 2010, after issuing countless of warnings to the participants of what was declared a "humanitarian flotilla" to stop and let Israeli officials inspect it, and after offering it to even peacefully achieve what initially was declared as their goal, to let Israel deliver the humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip, Israeli soldiers have boarded the ships.

What those soldiers have discovered the moment they've boarded the ship was, that amongst the activists was a large group of thugs, all Turks, who came there with the intent to kill the soldiers.
Outnumbering them 6 to 1, they have attacked them with crowbars and slingshots, stabbed them with knives, and even opening live fire on them.

The soldiers, equipped with paintball guns and non-lethal anti-demonstrations equipment, along with one pistol that was given to them and the order to use it only at the risk of life, have struggled with the violent crowd for a while, suffering bad injuries. Two of the soldiers were stabbed, one of the soldiers was thrown from the top deck, a 10-meters height, seriously injured.
All through that time the commander of the unit has ordered the soldiers not to fire a shot, even though he has seen that his soldiers' lives are at a great risk.
Only when the soldiers were fired on did the commander give the approval to draw the pistols and fire back, ending the violence.

Now instead of offering his apology for his country's citizens behavior and a regret for the lost of lives and injuries, the Turkish PM has decided to lash out at Israel, attacking it over the operation and saying that it has deliberately murdered the so-called activists.
Apparently you believe that the Turkish PM has something to be outraged on, as if Israeli soldiers have just decided to open fire on his completely innocent citizens whom only sin was that they were trying to murder Israeli soldiers.

Is that not cynical? Is that not hypocritical?
I think it is, and I think it's showing.
 
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RyrineaHaruno

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I think it kind of a hyperbole to say that this for political gain, since all of the people that were killed were Turkish citizens. Would you blame Obama for getting mad at Israel for the duel American citizen that was killed in this fiasco?
 
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I think it kind of a hyperbole to say that this for political gain, since all of the people that were killed were Turkish citizens. Would you blame Obama for getting mad at Israel for the duel American citizen that was killed in this fiasco?
Well he didn't get mad at Israel for a reason, I think he knows too well what this American was up to moments before he was shot down.
Would Israeli officials condemn Australia if an Australian soldier was to shoot down an Israeli citizen that was trying to stab him?
Absolutely not.
 

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Well he didn't get mad at Israel for a reason, I think he knows too well what this American was up to moments before he was shot down.
Would Israeli officials condemn Australia if an Australian soldier was to shoot down an Israeli citizen that was trying to stab him?
Absolutely not.
all this without an inquiry. There surely is no need for one.;)
 

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all this without an inquiry. There surely is no need for one.;)
No there actually isn't, the facts are way too clear on this one.
The only reason why there is an inquiry is because of the hypocritical international community, mainly Europe.
 

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No there actually isn't, the facts are way too clear on this one.
The only reason why there is an inquiry is because of the hypocritical international community, mainly Europe.
Europe doen't have much faith in an inquiry. Generally speaking we have learned that when the truth is known before an inquiry happens, there is no point.
 

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Europe doen't have much faith in an inquiry. Generally speaking we have learned that when the truth is known before an inquiry happens, there is no point.
Now that's just hilarious, because what you've just said is the complete opposite of the European stance on this issue.
If they'd have been following your guidelines they would have never condemned Israel for the violence created by the activists.
 

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Now that's just hilarious, because what you've just said is the complete opposite of the European stance on this issue.
If they'd have been following your guidelines they would have never condemned Israel for the violence created by the activists.
Knowing the results of an inquiry before it happens is what is hilarious, or maybe not. We call that a Whitewash. Obviously people need to ask for an inquiry and a fair and impartial inquiry and unlike the one Israel is planning one which looks at all who are involved, but I think people are aware this is unlikely to happen.

For this reason I understand the EU is working more simply on the blockade, so that the reason for another flotilla will be impossible.

EU raises doubts on Gaza raid inquiry but hopes grow of blockade easing | World news | The Guardian

and, I think they will need to get a step in the gas because after the ICRC declared yesterday that the blockade was a collective punishment and prohibited by Geneva Convention, they are planning another.

Freegaza - News section
 

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Knowing the results of an inquiry before it happens is what is hilarious, or maybe not. We call that a Whitewash.
Well that too is hilarious since I didn't declare the results of the inquiry but have declared what is obvious from the facts released so far.
Obviously people need to ask for an inquiry and a fair and impartial inquiry and unlike the one Israel is planning one which looks at all who are involved, but I think people are aware this is unlikely to happen.
I don't see a reason to claim that this inquiry is unfair, but of course you're just setting the grounds for when the inquiry's results would be released, and would most likely be completely in contradiction with your version of the incident.
How terrible must the truth be to the ears of those who deny it.
 

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Well that too is hilarious since I didn't declare the results of the inquiry but have declared what is obvious from the facts released so far.
I don't see a reason to claim that this inquiry is unfair, but of course you're just setting the grounds for when the inquiry's results would be released, and would most likely be completely in contradiction with your version of the incident.
How terrible must the truth be to the ears of those who deny it.
Nope I was going by this The public has a right to know - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

and this Aznar, Trimble to launch new pro-Israel project. 'Friends of Israel | Jerusalem Post Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET

both links I provided in a thread you were in yesterday.
 

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Now that's just hilarious, because what you've just said is the complete opposite of the European stance on this issue.
If they'd have been following your guidelines they would have never condemned Israel for the violence created by the activists.
Alexas reply went right over your head.

The Europeans like many other nations are resigned to this 'type' of inquiry that has lost any impartiality prior to its commencement.

Paul
 

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Alexas reply went right over your head.

The Europeans like many other nations are resigned to this 'type' of inquiry that has lost any impartiality prior to its commencement.

Paul
Once more there is absolutely zero reason to claim that the inquiry is not impartial, the people involved in it are credible, we're speaking about an independent inquiry, and it even has two international figures as observers.
It fits international standards and is being leaded by an highly respected Israeli judge, who was the judge of the supreme court.

So far I've only seen alexa showing opposition to the Irish nobel peace winner, but here's a passage from her article:
William Hague, the foreign secretary, said that the naming of Trimble and a Canadian judge to the Israeli panel was a welcome step
I think that those who reject the inquiry's impartiality simply do so because it's an Israeli inquiry.
Israel has proven in the past a countless times that it is capable of managing independent, credible inquiries into the state's actions, and I think that those who oppose it simply fear the probable outcome of the inquiry, which is most likely to be that Israel has acted completely in accordance with international law.
 

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Now that's just hilarious, because what you've just said is the complete opposite of the European stance on this issue.
If they'd have been following your guidelines they would have never condemned Israel for the violence created by the activists.
This really is Hilarious,
It's ISRAEL who's taking all the Flak from the euro-posters/EU here and the rest of the planet, before any inquiry by anyone.
The Turkish Press, being for more questioning/two-sided than the leftist and antisemite EU et al.

What now appears apparent from the facts is.... IF Israel had fired first/willy-nilly right from the Choppers there wouldn't have been any skirmish, the IHH "Hornets" would have scurried below deck with the passengers they pushed.
Frankly though, I don't know why they weren't firing from the choppers, as they must have heard the Slingshotted metal and glass projectiles hitting the Heli and assumed incoming fire.

Yet many of course just want to Blood libel Israel
.... again this week.
Since Gaza wasn't starving in the first place. (Libel 1)
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/68581-gaza-open-air-prison-ghetto-refugee-camp.html

Smells like another "Jenin" to me.
 
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alexa

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Once more there is absolutely zero reason to claim that the inquiry is not impartial, the people involved in it are credible, we're speaking about an independent inquiry, and it even has two international figures as observers.
It fits international standards and is being leaded by an highly respected Israeli judge, who was the judge of the supreme court.

So far I've only seen alexa showing opposition to the Irish nobel peace winner, but here's a passage from her article:
Well I have given you the link from where i got the information and I have given you the link and post number to where I gave the quote.

Lack of impartiality
The truth that Netanyahu wishes to bring out involves the identity of the flotilla's organizers, its sources of funding and the knives and rods that were brought aboard. He does not intend to probe the decision-making process that preceded the takeover of the ship and the shortcomings that were uncovered. As far as Netanyahu is concerned, it will be enough for television channels to broadcast footage of dark-suited jurists, and politicians addressing them, to present the semblance of an "examination."
We would expect any of our inquiries to look at this aspect. Missing it out is leaving out half the equation. It is already coming to the conclusion that there was no mistake made there when it may well turn out that this was where the mistake was made or that this was a contributing factor.

Especially when
The disagreements that erupted at the week's end between Netanyahu and his deputy, Strategic Affairs Minister Moshe Ya'alon, over the question of whether Ya'alon was updated in time about the action underscored the suspicion of serious faults in the decision-making process with regard to the flotilla. Instead of being part of the whitewash, Tirkel, whose dodging of his earlier statements does him no honor, should return his mandate to the prime minister and demand that Netanyahu establish a government committee of inquiry with real powers.
Further
But Netanyahu's panel will have no powers, not even those of a government probe, and its proposed chairman does not believe in such a panel. In an interview to Army Radio, Tirkel said there is no choice but to establish a state committee of inquiry. He opposed bringing in foreign observers and made clear that he is not a devotee of drawing conclusions about individuals and dismissing those responsible for failures.
Here I believe that Israel is following the conditions asked but when the chair does not believe in such a panel, it gives rise for loss of confidence.
I think that those who reject the inquiry's impartiality simply do so because it's an Israeli inquiry.
Well I have given my reasons. I had given them before in this thread but you ignored them.

Regarding Trimble, he was recommended by Tony Blair. Trimble is a member of a new organisation 'Friends of Israel' which only came into existence after the attack. So, he was not recommended by Israel but by Tony Blair but given that he is a member of this new organisation, his impartiality can easily be questioned. I accept that is not Israeli's doing.

quotes http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-public-has-a-right-to-know-1.295797
 
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Now to our current story, on the 31st of May, 2010, after issuing countless of warnings to the participants of what was declared a "humanitarian flotilla" to stop and let Israeli officials inspect it, and after offering it to even peacefully achieve what initially was declared as their goal, to let Israel deliver the humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip, Israeli soldiers have boarded the ships.
What those soldiers have discovered the moment they've boarded the ship was, that amongst the activists was a large group of thugs, all Turks, who came there with the intent to kill the soldiers.
Outnumbering them 6 to 1, they have attacked them with crowbars and slingshots, stabbed them with knives, and even opening live fire on them.
................
Simultaneously, after being (in international waters) surrounded by the Israeli Terrorist Forces the ship decided to divert its course and move further into international waters as they didn't want confrontation, however Israels attempts to pirate the ship persisted and nearly two hours after the route change, Israeli Terrorist Forces began their assault by shooting at the ship, according to some witnesses they used live ammunition and killed a person before even attempting to board, at this time the Israeli Terrorist Forces was also jamming all media communication in the ship, as we will later see Media/footage constituted the only dangerous weapons (as expected) that Israel needed to confiscate and as such the only thing the humanitarians/journalists tried to smuggle.

The people on board start to panic and do not understand why at 4 am with the ship getting away from the gaza strip Israeli terrorist forces start their assault, knowing that the terrorists are jamming media communication for a reason, some people on board felt the need to defend themselves, so they used brooms, sticks cut out of the ship's deck and some slingshots and (supposedly some knives) but as probably what those murdered trying to defend themselves from those Israeli murderers had known, with media cut off, nothing is going to stop a bloodthirsty Israeli terrorist soldier from massacre.

The result, 9 people are murdered, while the injured Israeli Terrorist Forces were tended to by activists, some of the activist were left to bleed to death, most of their bodies showed bullets fired at close range in the head (with all of them having been shot at multiple places except for one who was murdered by a single bullet to the head) suggesting execution, one of those murdered/tortured/executed was 'A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back.'
considering his slim physique, what kind of threat could this boy have presented to the armored Israeli Terrorist Forces that justifies him being used as target practice?

Some people claim that this is him being executed, if only Israel will release ALL raw footage so we can know what was actually happening here, anyway it looks suspicious enough, they were kicking someone on the ground and pointing some sort of gun at him, reloading then pointing the gun again with no direct/indirect threat to their lives.

Obviously having confiscated all evidence and documentation they could get their hands on from journalists on board, the Israeli Terrorist State will go on to refuse international calls for am impartial investigation, now one would think Israel would love to prove its innocence and help its image, as considering their statements, one would think they would be more than willing to cooperate after all they have the most moral (terrorists) forces in the world, but obviously as any 9 yearold would have guessed, they refused. They continue this charade with promises of conducting their own 'impartial' investigation, now if the eventual 'Israel is innocent findings' of such an investigation aren't already a laughing matter, those put in charge insist on exposing the joke even before such investigation begins the 'chairman does not believe in such a panel. In an interview to Army Radio, Tirkel said there is no choice but to establish a state committee of inquiry. He opposed bringing in foreign observers and made clear that he is not a devotee of drawing conclusions about individuals and dismissing those responsible for failures. When a Haaretz reporter confronted Tirkel about these remarks, the former justice evaded the question saying, "I don't remember what I said."'
One of those international 'impartial' observers is David Trimble, confounder of the recently formed Friends of Israel group and also on board is an IDF major general, no joke.


Now instead of offering his apology for his country's citizens behavior and a regret for the lost of lives and injuries, the Turkish PM has decided to lash out at Israel, attacking it over the operation and saying that it has deliberately murdered the so-called activists.
Apparently you believe that the Turkish PM has something to be outraged on, as if Israeli soldiers have just decided to open fire on his completely innocent citizens whom only sin was that they were trying to murder Israeli soldiers.

Is that not cynical? Is that not hypocritical?
I think it is, and I think it's showing.
No its not to answer your question, in fact I find Turkey's lack of response surprising especially after Israel confiscates evidence and refuse an investigation, such murderous operation targeting Turkish civilians is probably worth more than cancelling a couple of economic/militaristic deals to the murdered mens' families.
 
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No its not to answer your question, in fact I find Turkey's lack of response surprising especially after Israel confiscates evidence and refuse an investigation, such murderous operation targeting Turkish civilians is probably worth more than cancelling a couple of economic/militaristic deals to the murdered mens' families.
I do not even find a need to respond to your post.
Considering that, as every three years old (and really any rational person that's not a terrorist-supporter) would tell you, if the IDF wanted to kill those activists, all 1000+ of them would be dead, and not just 9.
Considering that all 9 were Turkish nationals, considering that the only deaths have occurred on board of the Mavi Maramra, and considering that Israel has every right to board and inspect a ship that's trying to run its blockade in international waters according to international law, the reason for the violence is obviously the intention of some of the activists to kill and murder the soldiers.
Unlike some, I have zero sympathy for people who try to murder soldiers(of any country). Self-defense only applies when you're under attack, and as the evidence released shows there are zero doubts that the activists, who are not seen dodging any bullets while they're waiting for the helicopter to come or while they're attacking the Israeli speed boats, have initiated the violence. I can only hope that those thugs' deaths was painful, as I do for any attempted murderer who gets shot down.
 

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Well I have given you the link from where i got the information and I have given you the link and post number to where I gave the quote.

Lack of impartiality

We would expect any of our inquiries to look at this aspect. Missing it out is leaving out half the equation. It is already coming to the conclusion that there was no mistake made there when it may well turn out that this was where the mistake was made or that this was a contributing factor.

Especially when

Further

Here I believe that Israel is following the conditions asked but when the chair does not believe in such a panel, it gives rise for loss of confidence.


Well I have given my reasons. I had given them before in this thread but you ignored them.

Regarding Trimble, he was recommended by Tony Blair. Trimble is a member of a new organisation 'Friends of Israel' which only came into existence after the attack. So, he was not recommended by Israel but by Tony Blair but given that he is a member of this new organisation, his impartiality can easily be questioned. I accept that is not Israeli's doing.

quotes The public has a right to know - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
I'll simply use the words of the BBC reporter Paul Wood, when he said that the Israeli inquiry and its participants are not unfriendly, but are credible.
 

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I'll simply use the words of the BBC reporter Paul Wood, when he said that the Israeli inquiry and its participants are not unfriendly, but are credible.
What a strange thing to say:shock:

I however did answer your question as to the reasons why myself and the EU and indeed some of your own country people do not have much confidence in an inquiry though the EU either do not know or are turning a blind eye to Trimble's new affiliation.
 
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I do not even find a need to respond to your post.
Considering that, as every three years old (and really any rational person that's not a terrorist-supporter) would tell you, if the IDF wanted to kill those activists, all 1000+ of them would be dead, and not just 9.
Considering that all 9 were Turkish nationals, considering that the only deaths have occurred on board of the Mavi Maramra, and considering that Israel has every right to board and inspect a ship that's trying to run its blockade in international waters according to international law, the reason for the violence is obviously the intention of some of the activists to kill and murder the soldiers.
Although they would have loved to to kill everyone, the blood thirst of the Israeli murderers who were unleashed on the activists had to be subdued at some point, they were there to kill and make a statement for aid groups that are going to follow suit, but within limits, considering the worldwide outrage murdering 9 activists have caused, am sure you'd realize how greater the effects would have been if Israel decided to murder such a higher number just for fun, and as such the largest ship seems to be the optimal choice for such a statement of terror to be made, the Mavi Marmara.
As whether or not Israel was breaking the law by trying to pirate a ship which was trying to avoid confrontation by going deeper into international waters, that is a ruling for the international court/impartial investigation to make.

Unlike some, I have zero sympathy for people who try to murder soldiers(of any country). Self-defense only applies when you're under attack, and as the evidence released shows there are zero doubts that the activists, who are not seen dodging any bullets while they're waiting for the helicopter to come or while they're attacking the Israeli speed boats, have initiated the violence. I can only hope that those thugs' deaths was painful, as I do for any attempted murderer who gets shot down.
Unlike some, I (along pretty much anyone who is not Israeli, internationality speaking) can look at all evidence presented and realize the Israeli story and subsequent actions do not add up for someone who is supposedly innocent, first if the activists' intention was to murder they could have easily murdered the 3 Israeli soldiers they subdued instead of allowing them treatment, secondly passengers claim that Israel terrorists began shooting (and murdering) before any soldier was on board, thirdly Israel confiscates any footage/cameras anything that could have documented what actually happened; evidence, lastly because I can't be bothered to write my previous post all over again, they refuse calls for an international investigation.

this to me screams guilty and provides more than enough reason for any decent person to doubt and question the Israeli story, but I doubt some people will admit Israel's guiltiness even if the terrorist soldiers admit their bloodthirst and confess.

Oh, one more thing, I find the pleasure you find in torture amusing.
 
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Although they would have loved to to kill everyone, the blood thirst of the Israeli murderers who were unleashed on the activists had to be subdued at some point
:rofl

Well I guess that's the view of all those who think Israel was at fault in this interception, at least you're the only one who's honest with his ridiculous torn-off opinions.
 
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