Equal Pay Day: March 15, 2022

[beefheart]

I take you at your word that you deal with these types of things.

What you claimed, regardless of its veracity, was anecdotal. Am I correct?

"Existing" and being a systemic issue (which is the claim) are two different things.

I am in meetings monthly with colleagues where we discuss this. Also I deal with multiple DOL audits, as do my colleagues.

And I see the results of these audits on other companies and the damages that are paid out on conciliation agreements.

I see it, its out there.

You don't.

 

[mrjurrs]

Thanks for proving one of the many points as to why this is a fallacy "women as a whole continue to be overrepresented in lower-paying occupations relative to their share of the workforce. This may contribute to gender differences in pay"

So if women, on average work in lower paying occupations, what will that to do the median? Using a median across ALL jobs is beyond stupid, essentially meaningless and only useful for political misinformation to fool well-intentioned but misguided citizens.

Dispelling Myths About The Gender Pay Gap

A recent court decision rejecting a gender discrimination lawsuit against the University of Oregon illustrates the difference between saying men are paid more than women and saying that women suffer from gender discrimination.

www.forbes.com

"When these basic factors are taken into account, the gender pay gap vastly decreases. For example, PayScale issued a report entitled: “The State of Gender Pay Gap 2019” based on a survey of 1.8 million wage earners. It reported that “women still make only $0.79 for every dollar men make in 2019.” But the controlled pay gap, “the amount that a woman earns for every dollar that a comparable man earns,” was a small fraction of that. When comparing two people in the same profession, with the same seniority, working the same number of hours, and so forth, women earn $0.98 for every dollar that a man earns."

Gender pay gap figures: debunking the myths

As this year’s data is released, we tackle the most common misconceptions

www.theguardian.com

"
Despite the results, myths and misconceptions about the gender pay gap persist. We’ve pulled together some of the most common myths to help you navigate the pay gap deniers.

There is no gender pay gap​

The most extreme myth is that gender pay gap is a lie perpetuated by feminists who use statistics dishonestly to further their cause.

This is a view shared by a small but vocal coalition of rightwing think tanks, Jordan Peterson, and men’s rights activists.

Writing in the Spectator, Kate Andrews, the associate director of the Institute of Economic Affairs, said women are “bombarded with inflated statistics, cherry-picked and designed to make them feel helpless”.

It’s fair to point out the flaws in the statistics. The median gap is calculated by lining up all men’s and women’s wages from top to bottom, and comparing the number that falls in the middle for each gender. As with all averages, it smooths out nuances and doesn’t account for differences in specific job roles, age, or previous experience."

8 economists on what people don't understand about the gender pay gap—and if it can actually be closed

CNBC Make It spoke with economists on the topic of equal pay to learn what workers get right, what they get wrong and what we can do to close the gender pay gap.

www.cnbc.com

"

In your best efforts, you still show a pay gap. Why is it 2 cents difference and not the same? Adherence to your claim makes you sound ignorant. Perhaps the there is a reason why women have differences in specific job roles, age or experience? But you seem to be in the position of...'they are just lacking'. I disagree.

How much did your mother get paid for bearing and raising children (probably the single most important job any human, male or female, can hold?

 

[beefheart]

One of the biggest problems is that women get lower starting pay, that may be due to negotiating. Over time, even if a woman and a man get the same % in raises with the same level on annual reviews, the gap will widen. That is what the Lilly Ledbetter case was about, something the OP should read up on.

The last two time my mate changed jobs (she was headhunted away, and then back), I advised her to pretend she was an entitled white male, and ask for much more than she was considering. She did, and each time she got a much higher starting salary had she not negotiated, and a much higher one than the previous job.

 

[SuperDS77]

In your best efforts, you still show a pay gap. Why is it 2 cents difference and not the same?

You are gonna die on this hill of 2 cents? You are joking, right? Ever hear of a margin of error?

Adherence to your claim makes you sound ignorant.

LOL!

Perhaps the there is a reason why women have differences in specific job roles, age or experience? But you seem to be in the position of...'they are just lacking'. I disagree.

I will ignore your strawman.

Yes there are many dynamic reasons as to why humans (male and female) choose to do what they do. Which is why the broad based claim of a SIGNIFICANT gap is fallacious on its face.

How much did your mother get paid for bearing and raising children (probably the single most important job any human, male or female, can hold?

It absolutely is the most important job, on this we agree. It is extremely important and a choice more women should make.

Which is why in our household, my wife, despite professional qualifications stayed at home and home-schooled our children through high school.

 

[mrjurrs]

You are gonna die on this hill of 2 cents? You are joking, right? Ever hear of a margin of error?

LOL!


I will ignore your strawman.

Yes there are many dynamic reasons as to why humans (male and female) choose to do what they do. Which is why the broad based claim of a SIGNIFICANT gap is fallacious on its face.


It absolutely is the most important job, on this we agree. It is extremely important and a choice more women should make.

Which is why in our household, my wife, despite professional qualifications stayed at home and home-schooled our children through high school.

How much did you pay her for her work?

Margin of error? Why isn't it $1.02 for every dollar a male makes. Any pay gap is significant, I notice you have no actual sources to back your hoohah.

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said it is a choice more women should make. I say they are not being paid for working that job.

 

[SuperDS77]

How much did you pay her for her work?

Everything I earned is equally both of ours.

Margin of error? Why isn't it $1.02 for every dollar a male makes. Any pay gap is significant, I notice you have no actual sources to back your hoohah.

No sources to say that there is a margin of error in studies? OK?

Keep hanging on to that .02 cent thread!

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said it is a choice more women should make.

I never said that you made that claim. As a good leftist, I was sure that you would not agree with that. Although you did say...

...bearing and raising children (probably the single most important job any human, male or female, can hold.

So why would it not be a better choice if it is "probably the single most important job"?

 

[BirdinHand]

One of the biggest problems is that women get lower starting pay, that may be due to negotiating. Over time, even if a woman and a man get the same % in raises with the same level on annual reviews, the gap will widen. That is what the Lilly Ledbetter case was about, something the OP should read up on.

The last two time my mate changed jobs (she was headhunted away, and then back), I advised her to pretend she was an entitled white male, and ask for much more than she was considering. She did, and each time she got a much higher starting salary had she not negotiated, and a much higher one than the previous job.

This is a BIG deal.

Women, in general, do not do as good a job in negotiating salaries as men do. Especially when they are young. And then spend the rest of their careers trying to make up the gap.

Anyone with a daughter would do them well to teach them to aim high. Ask for MORE than they think they can get.

 

[mrjurrs]

Everything I earned is equally both of ours.

No sources to say that there is a margin of error in studies? OK?

Keep hanging on to that .02 cent thread!


I never said that you made that claim. As a good leftist, I was sure that you would not agree with that. Although you did say...


So why would it not be a better choice if it is "probably the single most important job"?

And in Brown v Board of Education SCOTUS found that separate but equal is inherently unequal.

You conflate 'single most important job' with unpaid work. I don't.

 

[beefheart]

This is a BIG deal.

Women, in general, do not do as good a job in negotiating salaries as men do. Especially when they are young. And then spend the rest of their careers trying to make up the gap.

Anyone with a daughter would do them well to teach them to aim high. Ask for MORE than they think they can get.

Yeah, in many states employers are not allowed to ask an applicant what they make at a prior job. When you do a multiple recession pay analysis, it can show that all things being equal, there is no reason an employer can give to justify a pay gap.

 

[SuperDS77]

And in Brown v Board of Education SCOTUS found that separate but equal is inherently unequal.

What on God's green earth does that have to do with the issue at hand? Non-sequitur much?

You conflate 'single most important job' with unpaid work. I don't.

Stay-at home mother the "Single most important job" - mrjurrs.

I agree we have found common ground, which is a good thing.

 

[bomberfox]

Then they are not paying attention. SCOTUS eviscerated the Voting Rights Act of 1964 because things had changed...and look what those states are doing now.

Like I said in my last post...Did you ever notice that people who say other groups don't need to be 'advantaged' are already advantaged?

Then again you are speaking to someone who thinks white people are always picked last…

 

[bomberfox]

I have seen fair minded people place women and blacks to the front of the line for 50 years who now think its time that we all be treated equally.

. White people dont have to change their names to improve their chances at employment.

 

[mrjurrs]

. White people dont have to change their names to improve their chances at employment.

Or straighten their hair...
"On the 55th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, U.S. courts are still divided about African Americans’ right to wear their natural hair in the workplace."

How Natural Black Hair at Work Became a Civil Rights Issue - JSTOR Daily

On the 55th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, U.S. courts are still divided about African Americans’ right to wear their natural hair in the workplace.

daily.jstor.org

 

[bomberfox]

Or straighten their hair...
"On the 55th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, U.S. courts are still divided about African Americans’ right to wear their natural hair in the workplace."

How Natural Black Hair at Work Became a Civil Rights Issue - JSTOR Daily

On the 55th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, U.S. courts are still divided about African Americans’ right to wear their natural hair in the workplace.

daily.jstor.org

Indeed i showed him the studies that show even Asian Americans are less likely to be hired over their white counterparts but all i got was “i can make stats say anything durr”

 

[mrjurrs]

What on God's green earth does that have to do with the issue at hand? Non-sequitur much?

Stay-at home mother the "Single most important job" - mrjurrs.

I agree we have found common ground, which is a good thing.

You claimed everything you had was hers. I responded with what I imagine her response to you would have been...

 

[mrjurrs]

Indeed i showed him the studies that show even Asian Americans are less likely to be hired over their white counterparts but all i got was “i can make stats say anything durr”

I recognize that I don't know everything, and that not everyone wants to change their POV. But willful ignorance, the refusal to look at facts objectively, has always been a mystery to me.

 

[noonereal]

. White people dont have to change their names to improve their chances at employment.

If people what to be a victim, and most do, they will see themselves as a victim.

Its 2022, not 1969.

 

[noonereal]

I recognize that I don't know everything, and that not everyone wants to change their POV. But willful ignorance, the refusal to look at facts objectively, has always been a mystery to me.

Some people are very uncomfortable thinking. It is very easy to simply belive what you prefer to and then only hear what supports your view.

Just as some are intellectually curious by nature, others are just as intellectually uncomfortable by nature.

 

[Gaius46]

see post #21

Interesting read. Thx.

 

[mrjurrs]

Some people are very uncomfortable thinking. It is very easy to simply belive what you prefer to and then only hear what supports your view.

Just as some are intellectually curious by nature, others are just as intellectually uncomfortable by nature.

Confirmation bias is a real thing, but at some point don't you have to admit you are lying to yourself. After all, the first person to know they are lying is the person telling the lie.

 

[SuperDS77]

I recognize that I don't know everything, and that not everyone wants to change their POV.

I agree.

But willful ignorance, the refusal to look at facts objectively, has always been a mystery to me.

It seems that those that continue to push the fallacious notion of a large "pay gap" between men and women fit this description. It is unfortunate that certain people use this as a political cudgel year after year.

 

[SuperDS77]

Some people are very uncomfortable thinking. It is very easy to simply belive what you prefer to and then only hear what supports your view.

Just as some are intellectually curious by nature, others are just as intellectually uncomfortable by nature.

I agree. We have found common ground.

 

[VanceMack]

Yep. Totally made up problem that never happens.

Dell Sued by EEOC for Violation of Equal Pay Laws

www.eeoc.gov

Oh...

“Dell’s approach to establishing salaries for Ms. Golden and the male employees who worked at the company acquired by Dell resulted in a wage gap between Ms. Golden and one of the male co-workers."

Your example doesnt show systemic disparity in society...it doesnt even show it at Dell. Ms Golden wasnt paid less than male co-workers...she was paid less than ONE of her male co-workers. The resolution of the lawsuit does not mean that there was actual bias...it just means it was cheaper to pay her off than to litigate the case. Not sure if you have been in an interview but often, the company will ask the applicants what they are willing to accept...and this case could be as simple as the female employee citing a lower number than ONE of her male co-workers.

Companies are insured against these types of legal actions. The payoff just means they agree to make the suit go away for considerably less than it would cost to fight it.

 

[noonereal]

Confirmation bias is a real thing, but at some point don't you have to admit you are lying to yourself. After all, the first person to know they are lying is the person telling the lie.

No. What happens in confirmation bias is that you surround yourself with others who have the same biases. They wind up reinforcing each others biases.

 

[mrjurrs]

I agree.

It seems that those that continue to push the fallacious notion of a large "pay gap" between men and women fit this description. It is unfortunate that certain people use this as a political cudgel year after year.

You've got no game. None of your sources support your claims. None of your responses address my questions.

Do you believe that President Biden won a fair election free from statistically significant voter fraud in 11.20?