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English Catholicism and the See of Rome

it's just me

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What is about to follow is excerpted from an essay by Frederic Hood by the title of the same name. Hood gives his reasons for offering this work, those who wish to read it in entirely can go here:

English Catholicism and the See of Rome, by Frederic Hood

My purpose for offering it here have mostly to do with how the Church of England is perceived. Among Protestants we are seen as "Catholics", so much so that I have been accused of serving the Pope. Among Roman Catholics we are seen as fake clergy whose orders have no validity. Hood makes a good case for who we really are and why we exist in this essay, which I now offer in part:

"Since the beginning of this century the Catholic movement within the English Church has forced itself more and more upon public notice. It is not unnatural, therefore, that the ordinary layman should wonder what connection this movement has with Roman Catholicism. Few remain, it is true, who seriously believe that Anglo-Catholic priests are 'Jesuits in disguise,' or that the whole movement is one of the dark and subtle machinations of Rome, put into motion with the object of bringing thousands into complete submission. But still the layman sees that many of the doctrines and practices of Anglo-Catholicism are apparently identical with, or at least closely similar to, those of Romanism...

If we look back upon the history of the Catholic Church, we find that for the first thousand years of its life there existed a great and ever growing block of Christians, who constituted what was known as the 'Great Church,' and there was no doubt as to who were members of this Church and who were not. Our Lord had founded the Church as the depository or 'storehouse,' as it were, of truth and of power; and he promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into truth. (St. John xvi. 13.) The voice of the Holy Spirit was recognised as speaking by means of the authoritative pronouncements of the 'Great Church' ; that is to say, through such definitions of the General Councils of bishops as commended themselves to the experience of the faithful.

Now in 1054, for reasons more political than doctrinal, owing in fact principally to the rivalry which existed between Rome and Constantinople, this ' Great Church' divided into two almost equal parts ; external union ceased between the adherents of Rome and the adherents of Constantinople. Then for the first time in history a serious question arose as to where the true Church was to be found.

We turn next then, very briefly, to events in England in the sixteenth century. Up till that time the English Church had been in full communion with the pope. If we could put ourselves in the position of those who were living in that century, we should see clearly what a real need there was for some kind of a 'Reformation' within the Church. Doctrines and practices true and valuable in themselves were crudely and mechanically conceived. The memorial of Christ's death in the Mass was expressed as if it were a real death, and mathematical calculations were rife as to the exact efficacy of numbers of Masses. The sale of Indulgences regarded as magically effective apart from morality, had been for several centuries the occupation of a professional class. Meanwhile among the vast majority of those who called themselves Christians, the spiritual life was almost forgotten; essentials were in the background; Confession and Communion happened only at Easter. The nation was also grossly oppressed by papal taxation.

A reformation, then, was urgently needed; but it is deplorable that this did not happen without involving a further division in the Christian Church. It was again for political reasons that the division occurred ; the final break took place in 1570, when Pope Pius V excommunicated Queen Elizabeth. From that date the Church of England has been out of communion with the see of Rome; and again we have to decide where the true Church is to be found. Is the pope's claim justified, that because he excommunicated the English Church, she can no longer claim to be a true and vital part of the body of Christ?

We may answer this question in the words of Dr Gore (Catholicism and Roman Catholicism, p. 44). ' There seems to have been a special providence in the form which the Reformation and the repudiation of the Roman authority took in England. Here the appeal to Scripture ... was joined with a conservative retention of the three great elements of Catholic unity ; the Catholic creeds, the sacramental system, and the apostolic succession of the ministry.' If we read the Prayer Book and other such documents, we find that the Church of England unquestionably claims continuity with the Church of the ages, and though we miss much which we desire to restore of the warmth and beauty of Catholic devotion, we find that our communion has been providentially preserved from being officially committed to heresy. The contrast in this respect between the Church of England and other reformed bodies is significant. We realise that the full practice of Catholicism was largely dormant for three centuries, but even' during those dark days Catholicism - though in an attenuated form-continued to be practised by a 'faithful remnant,' which was at some periods more numerous than at others.

Ninety years ago a great movement started in Oxford, the object of which was not to introduce innovations in doctrine or practice, but to restore the true character of the English Church. The success of this movement must surely be beyond the most sanguine expectations of its originators. Such success is hard to explain unless the movement is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

At the heart of the movement is no mere question of externals-of candles and vestments and incense, as some suppose. It has effected a real and vital religious revival in this country; even the parishes least sympathetic towards it have been greatly affected by it; few churches now remain, for instance, in which Holy Communion is not celebrated at least on Sundays and great feasts. But this point need not be laboured, because an elementary knowledge of history reveals the contrast between the state of the English Church to-day and its state ninety years ago. The Church is still accused, it is true, of 'failing,' of not being in touch with the 'modern mind '; but few would be bold enough to assert that it fulfilled that function more adequately at the beginning of the nineteenth century. The success of the Catholic Revival is such that, though its duration has been comparatively so short, probably one third of the clergymen in Britain to-day are in sympathy with it: and Catholics are recognised even by the secular press as forming one of the strongest and most 'alive' sections in the Church.

It is true that in 1896 the Roman Catholic Church officially repudiated our Orders, chiefly on the ground that, at the Reformation, the intention of the Church of England ceased to be to ordain priests in the Catholic sense of that word. Mr. Wilfrid Knox has dealt with this charge at length in his book Friend, I do thee no Wrong. This conclusion is borne out by the greatest Roman Catholic historian of this century. Monseigneur Duchesne, who died last year. The weak position of those who attack the validity of Anglican Orders is indicated by the number and variety of reasons which critics find for their invalidity, and the frequency with which a former argument has to be discarded.
'"
 
Isn't the apologia that Archbishop Cranmer was part of the Apostolic Succession before England broke from Rome?
 
Isn't the apologia that Archbishop Cranmer was part of the Apostolic Succession before England broke from Rome?

Then or now?

I don't remember who was present at Matthew Parker's consecration but I will find out.

Today, of course, there have been so many ex-RCC consecrators in our ranks that we can't help but have valid orders.
 
Then or now?

I don't remember who was present at Matthew Parker's consecration but I will find out.

Today, of course, there have been so many ex-RCC consecrators in our ranks that we can't help but have valid orders.

This was on Wikipedia - I am really straining my memory on this:

"He was elected on 1 August 1559 but, given the turbulence and executions that had preceded Elizabeth's accession, it was difficult to find the requisite four bishops willing and qualified to consecrate Parker, and not until December 19 was that ceremony performed at Lambeth by William Barlow, formerly Bishop of Bath and Wells, John Scory, formerly Bishop of Chichester, Miles Coverdale, formerly Bishop of Exeter, and John Hodgkins, Bishop of Bedford. The allegation of an indecent consecration in the Nag's Head Fable seems first to have been made by the Jesuit Christopher Holywood in 1604, and has since been discredited. Parker's consecration was, however, legally valid only by the plenitude of the royal supremacy; the Edwardine Ordinal, which was used, had been repealed by Mary Tudor and not re-enacted by the parliament of 1559. The Roman Catholic Church has asserted that the form of consecration used was insufficient to make a bishop, and therefore represented a break in the Apostolic Succession, but the Church of England has rejected this, arguing that the form of words used made no difference to the substance or validity of the act."

Nag's head fable - "The Nag's Head Fable was a fiction which purported that Matthew Parker, an Archbishop of Canterbury, was not consecrated solemnly, but instead was consecrated with a Bible pressed to his neck while inside the Nag's Head tavern. The story surfaced more than 40 years after Parker's consecration and was spread by Roman Catholics as fact until the dawn of the 20th century."
 
Well, I'm referring specifically to Cranmer, who was already Archbishop, and his receiving of the Apostolic Succession. Those who were reared in the U.S. in the Anglican Communion and who regard themselves as "high church" frequently refer to themselves as "Anglo-Catholics." In fact, although I can't remember the author's name, as a child I remember this book title: But I Am a Catholic! And the explanation I've always heard (correctly or incorrectly) is that it is because Cranmer himself had already become part of the Apostolic Succession that this is so.
 
Well, I'm referring specifically to Cranmer, who was already Archbishop, and his receiving of the Apostolic Succession. Those who were reared in the U.S. in the Anglican Communion and who regard themselves as "high church" frequently refer to themselves as "Anglo-Catholics." In fact, although I can't remember the author's name, as a child I remember this book title: But I Am a Catholic! And the explanation I've always heard (correctly or incorrectly) is that it is because Cranmer himself had already become part of the Apostolic Succession that this is so.

That may be, it's been so long since I have studied this stuff I have forgotten more about it than I remember, I'm afraid. Pope Leo's Papal Bull invalidating Anglican orders centered around the Consecration of Matthew Parker as Archbishop of Canterbury. Parker was consecrated in 1559, three years after Cranmer's death. I don't know whether Cranmer consecrated or ordained anyone of importance, or anyone having to do with what would become the C of E during his ministry. My memory tells me that Leo's problem had more to do with the words of institution in the BCP than with any legitimate succession, and depending on who you talk to Leo may or may not have had a point.

Speaking of Cranmer, though, Continuing Anglican churches still use the 1662 and 1928 Books of Common Prayer (which one depends on where you are in the world), which are essentially the same as the his 1549 Prayer Book, with a few occasional services added. The Anglican rite is very similar, IMO, to your Novus Ordo rite, which have had hard core Catholics grumbling for years. In any case, the Roman Catholic DNA still exists in us.

The Episcopal Church in America has ceased to be a joke, it's not funny anymore.

I self identify as "Catholic", which is to say, English Catholic, but I usually get disowned by Roman Catholics as a Protestant and by Protestants as a Roman Catholic. *sigh*
 
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Interesting post IJM. I have had some experience with the Catholic church, but never attended or been a member. Honestly, something about it never quite fit my own personal understanding of Christ's church.
In my mind Christ's church is made up of course of the true believers, whoever they are and wherever they are. In fact I get a bit tweaked in my mind when I hear a local pastor say "Our church" because the Church belongs to Christ.
It is His church, or it is nothing, at least to my way of thinking.
That said, this is an interesting bit of history you posted. I am glad to have seen this.
 
Interesting post IJM. I have had some experience with the Catholic church, but never attended or been a member. Honestly, something about it never quite fit my own personal understanding of Christ's church.
In my mind Christ's church is made up of course of the true believers, whoever they are and wherever they are. In fact I get a bit tweaked in my mind when I hear a local pastor say "Our church" because the Church belongs to Christ.
It is His church, or it is nothing, at least to my way of thinking.
That said, this is an interesting bit of history you posted. I am glad to have seen this.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Ultimately, all denominations have their origins in the Catholic Church, it's worth looking into. Perhaps one of these days we will all be one again.
 
Doesn't the anglican Church self identify as "protestant"?
 
Doesn't the anglican Church self identify as "protestant"?

The American Episcopal Church has been known as the "Protestant Episcopal Church" since the American Revolution. As for the Church of England, I guess it depends on who you talk to. If you read some of the old writings it becomes apparent that neither one is strictly Protestant or strictly Catholic - it's a problem we have had for years. Neither fish nor foul.
 
The American Episcopal Church has been known as the "Protestant Episcopal Church" since the American Revolution. As for the Church of England, I guess it depends on who you talk to. If you read some of the old writings it becomes apparent that neither one is strictly Protestant or strictly Catholic - it's a problem we have had for years. Neither fish nor foul.

I mean according to the monarchy, or the leadership.
 
I mean according to the monarchy, or the leadership.

Well, they will probably all tell you that they are "catholic", small "c". What that means is they consider themselves to be part of the universal Church. Until Protestant laymen get it through their heads that small c catholic does not mean "Roman Catholic" that will be a confusing term. I am speaking more in terms of our worship tradition, which is very Catholic to one degree or another, which only makes sense when you consider where it is we came from.

On the way to church I often listen to the Catholic Mass on EWTN, and will often recite the Mass along with the celebrant, that's how close it is to our own.
 
Well, they will probably all tell you that they are "catholic", small "c". What that means is they consider themselves to be part of the universal Church. Until Protestant laymen get it through their heads that small c catholic does not mean "Roman Catholic" that will be a confusing term. I am speaking more in terms of our worship tradition, which is very Catholic to one degree or another, which only makes sense when you consider where it is we came from.

On the way to church I often listen to the Catholic Mass on EWTN, and will often recite the Mass along with the celebrant, that's how close it is to our own.

Sure, but worship tradition varies in anglicanism, as it does in other "protestant" denominations, Lutheranism has a high Church movement, as does methodism.

Also many Christian sects would consider themselves to be "catholic" in the sense of being universal.

But does the Roman Catholic Church Accept Anglican rites?

Does the Anglican Church Accept Roman Catholic rites?

Are they in communion in any way?

So traditionally, the liturgy might be similar, but when it comes to doctrine and so on, I don't know, I think Anglicanism is protestant.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Ultimately, all denominations have their origins in the Catholic Church, it's worth looking into. Perhaps one of these days we will all be one again.

It can be argued that the Catholic Church has it's origins in the eastern orthodox Church, or in the Oriental orthodox Church ...
 
Sure, but worship tradition varies in anglicanism, as it does in other "protestant" denominations, Lutheranism has a high Church movement, as does methodism.

Also many Christian sects would consider themselves to be "catholic" in the sense of being universal.


Are they in communion in any way?

We are in communion with all baptised Christians, no matter what their worship tradition is. It doesn't always go both ways. I had a Lutheran pastor quiz me on what I thought the "real substance" was before serving me communion. I never did attend his church after that phone call. Catholic Priests are not supposed to serve me the Eucharist but I have never had one refuse me. I have never been in a reformed type church where they even had communion.

So traditionally, the liturgy might be similar, but when it comes to doctrine and so on, I don't know, I think Anglicanism is protestant.

When I think of "Protestantism" I think of a defined set of beliefs, such as Calvinism or Lutheranism. We do not subscribe to either of those theologies, for example, we do not believe in transubstantiation, nor do we believe in consubstantiation, either. We do not believe in double predestination. And there are many Roman Catholic beliefs we do not subscribe to.

But does the Roman Catholic Church Accept Anglican rites?

Does the Anglican Church Accept Roman Catholic rites?

Actually, Pope Benedict invited the continuing Anglican churches to join the RCC, he even offered to let us keep our Prayer Books. Some of them did. That only makes sense, since the Anglican Mass is taken from the Sarum, and so is the RCC Mass. We have used all or part of St. Gregory's Mass in our own worship.

It can be argued that the Catholic Church has it's origins in the eastern orthodox Church, or in the Oriental orthodox Church ...

Well, I don't know about that, but the RCC/Orthodox split was just another one of those silly things from Church history.
 
We are in communion with all baptised Christians, no matter what their worship tradition is. It doesn't always go both ways. I had a Lutheran pastor quiz me on what I thought the "real substance" was before serving me communion. I never did attend his church after that phone call. Catholic Priests are not supposed to serve me the Eucharist but I have never had one refuse me. I have never been in a reformed type church where they even had communion.

I don't know about who is supposed to serve who communion, but If they recognize the rites?

So for example if you were baptised a lutheren do Anglicans consider you as part of the "catholic" Christian Church? I suppose so.

Roman Catholics do not.

When I think of "Protestantism" I think of a defined set of beliefs, such as Calvinism or Lutheranism. We do not subscribe to either of those theologies, for example, we do not believe in transubstantiation, nor do we believe in consubstantiation, either. We do not believe in double predestination. And there are many Roman Catholic beliefs we do not subscribe to.

Yes, but Anglicanism does have a defined set of beliefs ... right?

Actually, Pope Benedict invited the continuing Anglican churches to join the RCC, he even offered to let us keep our Prayer Books. Some of them did. That only makes sense, since the Anglican Mass is taken from the Sarum, and so is the RCC Mass. We have used all or part of St. Gregory's Mass in our own worship.

Can you enlighten me on this? So did some of the Anglican Churches join the RCC?

Well, I don't know about that, but the RCC/Orthodox split was just another one of those silly things from Church history.

Sure, but it's just an annoying thing some Catholics do, they argue for apostolic succession, and then just assume they have it, rather than the Orthodox churches, you have to argue for it if you want it.
 
I've known very sincere and well-meaning (but ignorant) people who have refused to say the Apostle's Creed because they don't know the difference between "catholic" and "Catholic." When I've tried to explain that "catholic" means "universal," they have generally refused to believe me.
 
I don't know about who is supposed to serve who communion, but If they recognize the rites?

You asked me if we are in communion with other faith traditions, that's what "being in communion" means.

So for example if you were baptised a lutheren do Anglicans consider you as part of the "catholic" Christian Church? I suppose so.

Roman Catholics do not.

Technically they don't recognize anybody but their own. This is because they want to teach people about communion to make sure that people aren't eating and drinking to their own damnation. It's a well meaning practice, even if they do carry it a bit too far. We recognize all baptised believers and trust them to know what it is they are doing. Even Lutheran churches have a confirmation rite.

Yes, but Anglicanism does have a defined set of beliefs ... right?

Yes, but they are not "Protestant". We affirm some RCC beliefs (such as sacraments) and some Protestant beliefs. We have staked out our position in the middle of the road. I am shocked and dismayed when I hear of Protestant Churches who do not even believe in Baptism or the Lord's Supper as being sacraments.

Can you enlighten me on this? So did some of the Anglican Churches join the RCC?

That's what I heard, but I don't personally know of anyone who did. I am a great believer in re-unification but I go where my Bishop goes.

Sure, but it's just an annoying thing some Catholics do, they argue for apostolic succession, and then just assume they have it, rather than the Orthodox churches, you have to argue for it if you want it.

They don't "assume" they have it, it's documented, and a lot of us have it, too, ours is documented as well.
 
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I've known very sincere and well-meaning (but ignorant) people who have refused to say the Apostle's Creed because they don't know the difference between "catholic" and "Catholic." When I've tried to explain that "catholic" means "universal," they have generally refused to believe me.

I have actually seen prayer books where "catholic" is crossed out, that is the extent of anti-Catholic sentiment in these last days. Sad.
 
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Yes, but they are not "Protestant". We affirm some RCC beliefs (such as sacraments) and some Protestant beliefs. We have staked out our position in the middle of the road. I am shocked and dismayed when I hear of Protestant Churches who do not even believe in Baptism or the Lord's Supper as being sacraments.

That's strange, it's probably they just don't like the Word "sacraments," I'm not a Catholic, and there's a lot I don't agree With in the Catholic Church, but I also notice that a TON of protestant and evangelical opposition to Catholicism comes from ignorance and over simplification.

They don't "assume" they have it, it's documented, and a lot of us have it, too, ours is documented as well.

Well .. prior to the split they all agreed on each others apostolic authority, after, they didn't, I don't think either of them can claim apostolic authority on purely succession.
 
That's strange, it's probably they just don't like the Word "sacraments," I'm not a Catholic, and there's a lot I don't agree With in the Catholic Church, but I also notice that a TON of protestant and evangelical opposition to Catholicism comes from ignorance and over simplification.

Mostly evangelical, and yes, it stems from ignorance and superstition. I have grown weary over the years of the Jack Chicks and the Tim LaHayes of the world and their "The Pope is the anti-Christ" mantra. One thing you don't want to do is argue with a Roman Catholic who knows his stuff, he will destroy your argument in no time flat. I often listen to Catholic Answers during my evening drive, and these guys are good, they have an explanation for everything.

I, on the other hand, can't get behind the Maryan theology - I see their point, and I am down with the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant thing, I have even preached on it myself. This is where the prayers to the saints comes in, you see it in Revelation. But as far as Mary being co-redemptrix, nah, I can't get behind that. But, I am not going to hold it against them, that's not my job. We are all Christians, I am not going to disparage my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Well .. prior to the split they all agreed on each others apostolic authority, after, they didn't, I don't think either of them can claim apostolic authority on purely succession.

Prior to the split the Pope regarded us as his flock.

This whole post is about Leo invalidating our orders. The RCC considers ordination to be a sacrament (and so it is), and they have been historically picayune when it comes to sacraments, which is why they are so adamant on the Lord's Supper, marriage and divorce, and of course, ordination. Any honest person reading the history can make a compelling case for both sides, but today, even Anglican Priests have succession from the Roman Catholic Church, I have RCC succession, the guy who ordained me does. If succession is not a sign of apostolic authority, then what is? It certainly isn't standing up and claiming it, the way some of the 19th century cults do.

I say if we have the succession and teach what the Church has always taught, we do have the authority.
 
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The American Episcopal Church has been known as the "Protestant Episcopal Church" since the American Revolution. As for the Church of England, I guess it depends on who you talk to. If you read some of the old writings it becomes apparent that neither one is strictly Protestant or strictly Catholic - it's a problem we have had for years. Neither fish nor foul.

With the destruction of Catholic imagery, the pillaging of the monasteries, and the attacks on the previously popular devotions, it's hard to see how the Church of England can be called Catholic.

Which is interesting, because it has implications for those who have done the same in the Catholic Church itself in recent decades.
 
Well, they will probably all tell you that they are "catholic", small "c". What that means is they consider themselves to be part of the universal Church. Until Protestant laymen get it through their heads that small c catholic does not mean "Roman Catholic" that will be a confusing term. I am speaking more in terms of our worship tradition, which is very Catholic to one degree or another, which only makes sense when you consider where it is we came from.

On the way to church I often listen to the Catholic Mass on EWTN, and will often recite the Mass along with the celebrant, that's how close it is to our own.

You should check out the Latin Mass that is recorded every week on livemass.org if you're into the EWTN Mass. EWTN only does novus ordo Masses versus populum, while in the livemass podcast you get to see the Mass of the Ages. It's very different, and harder to follow along at first since it's in Latin, but it is a far richer (IMO) experience.
 
With the destruction of Catholic imagery, the pillaging of the monasteries, and the attacks on the previously popular devotions, it's hard to see how the Church of England can be called Catholic.

Which is interesting, because it has implications for those who have done the same in the Catholic Church itself in recent decades.

How about some examples?
 
We are in communion with all baptised Christians, no matter what their worship tradition is. It doesn't always go both ways. I had a Lutheran pastor quiz me on what I thought the "real substance" was before serving me communion. I never did attend his church after that phone call. Catholic Priests are not supposed to serve me the Eucharist but I have never had one refuse me. I have never been in a reformed type church where they even had communion.

Wait, so you're actually receiving the Body of Christ while not submitting fully to the Catholic Church and not in a state of grace (I assume you haven't gone to Confession)? I would, as vehemently as possible, advise you against doing so. Please, go to Mass as often as you like, but do not receive the Blessed Sacrament until you are ready to accept everything that goes along with that.

Actually, Pope Benedict invited the continuing Anglican churches to join the RCC, he even offered to let us keep our Prayer Books. Some of them did. That only makes sense, since the Anglican Mass is taken from the Sarum, and so is the RCC Mass. We have used all or part of St. Gregory's Mass in our own worship.

Those churches, though, have to accept the full Catechism of the Catholic Church.
 
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