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Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

apdst

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So you think discrimination prevents discrimination:lamo
Care to explain to us how heightened privacy rules is dsicrimination?




This transition has been going on for a while now.

Show the official policy, set by the DOD, that discusses the transition of openly gay service members into the system.

As always, thanks in advance.
 

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How did he go against the Pentagon? The Pentagon was ordered by a federal court to stop the ban.
And the military did. It was the Obama administration that said DADT is still in effect until further notice.
 

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And the military did. It was the Obama administration that said DADT is still in effect until further notice.
That isn't true either. The White House went to the Appeals Court and asked them to stay the ruling. The Appeals Court then stayed the ruling.
 

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That isn't true either. The White House went to the Appeals Court and asked them to stay the ruling. The Appeals Court then stayed the ruling.
After the judge made her announcement, the Pentagon pushed down to suspend DADT to all branches after the Air Force took it upon itself to do it. It was the Obama Administration, through the SECDEF, that ordered DADT as the current law of the land which reversed the Pentagon.
 
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CriticalThought

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After the judge made her announcement, the Pentagon pushed down to suspend DADT to all branches after the Air Force took it upon itself to do it. It was the Obama Administration, through the SECDEF, that ordered DADT as the current law of the land which reversed the Pentagon.
That isn't true. The Appeals Court ordered a stay on DADT. In fact, the Log Cabin Republicans were challenging the stay in the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court just decided to uphold it.
 

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That isn't true. The Appeals Court ordered a stay on DADT. In fact, the Log Cabin Republicans were challenging the stay in the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court just decided to uphold it.
Just when?

On October 12, 2010, Judge Phillips ordered the military to suspend and discontinue any investigation or discharge, separation, or other proceeding that have been commenced under the "Don't ask, don't tell".[28] The Department of Justice responded two days later with an appeal and the request for an emergency stay to allow them to continue to work under the policy
In the mean time, the Pentagon issued orders to suspend DADT. It was the Obama adminisration that countered this. It is very true. Why the hell do you think he's getting so much flak for being weak on the subject by the gays? He's not the champion they thought he was.
 
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In the mean time, the Pentagon issued orders to suspend DADT.
That is false. It was a federal judge that suspended DADT.

Okay since you don't seem quite aware of the facts, I'll present some news stories.

Federal judge orders immediate halt to 'Don't ask, Don't tell' ban on openly gay troops

Federal judge orders immediate halt to 'Don't ask, Don't tell' ban on openly gay troops

Pentagon Accepts Applications From Openly-Gay Recruits (in order to comply with federal judge's ruling)

Pentagon Accepts Applications From Openly-Gay Recruits

Appeals court keeps military gay policy for now...

Appeals court keeps military gay policy for now | Top AP Stories | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Supreme Court: 'Don't ask, don't tell' OK during appeal

Supreme Court: 'Don't ask, don't tell' OK during appeal - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

It was the Obama adminisration that countered this.
The Obama administration asked the courts to put a stay on the federal judge's ruling. Their positon has been that the policy needs to be repealed by Congress, not the courts.
 
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That is false. It was a federal judge that suspended DADT.

Okay since you don't seem quite aware of the facts, I'll present some news stories.

Federal judge orders immediate halt to 'Don't ask, Don't tell' ban on openly gay troops

Federal judge orders immediate halt to 'Don't ask, Don't tell' ban on openly gay troops

Pentagon Accepts Applications From Openly-Gay Recruits (in order to comply with federal judge's ruling)

Pentagon Accepts Applications From Openly-Gay Recruits

Appeals court keeps military gay policy for now...

Appeals court keeps military gay policy for now | Top AP Stories | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Supreme Court: 'Don't ask, don't tell' OK during appeal

Supreme Court: 'Don't ask, don't tell' OK during appeal - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

The Obama administration asked the courts to put a stay on the federal judge's ruling. Their positon has been that the policy needs to be repealed by Congress, not the courts.


What is wrong with you? This is exactly what I stated. Three posts in a row you stated I was false only to write exactly what I stated. You are making an argument over nothing.

The judge spoke, the Pentagon issued orders to the branches. It was Obama's administration that reversed it and stated that DADT is still the law of the land. I don't care why he reversed it. His position is weakened now because he didn't let the Pentagon do what it ordered the branches to do. The fact is that the Pentagon as well as the branches are sick of hearing about gays. You can blame Republicans for making gays feel bad about themselves, but it was the White House that gummed this up.
 
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What is wrong with you? This is exactly what I stated. Three posts in a row you stated I was false only to write exactly what I stated. You are making an argument over nothing.
You stated that it was the Pentagon that ordered the cease of DADT, when it was actually a federal judge and you argued that it was Obama that ordered that DADT continue when it was actually the Appeals Court. You were not even approximately correct.

The judge spoke, the Pentagon issued orders to the branches.
The Pentagon chose to comply with the judge orders.

It was Obama's administration that reversed it and stated that DADT is still the law of the land.
No, the Obama administration asked the Appeals court to stay the federal judges orders.

I don't care why they reversed it.
They didn't reverse it, the Appeals Court put a stay on the Federal judge's ruling.

For some reason you seemed bound and determined to ignore the facts.
 

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Sure, they have those policies in place. Wanna know what? Discrimination because of race, sex, creed, color and religion happens, anyway. Nothing will stop covert discrimination. A DADT policy will go along way to protect gays and straights from being discriminated against.

Personally, I don't think throwing gay soldiers to the wolves is a good idea, not at first, anyway. If, after a few years and we see how things are going, then maybe it will be time to lift any and all DADT restrictions.

Anyone that thinks we can make the transition, overnight is living a fantasy.
Discrimination is always going to happen. Completely getting rid of DADT is the only way to effectively decrease discrimination against gays. Without DADT, gays will be able to report cases of discrimination without fear that they will be discharged, or under what you propose, punished because of their sexuality.
 

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You stated that it was the Pentagon that ordered the cease of DADT, when it was actually a federal judge and you argued that it was Obama that ordered that DADT continue when it was actually the Appeals Court. You were not even approximately correct.



The Pentagon chose to comply with the judge orders.



No, the Obama administration asked the Appeals court to stay the federal judges orders.



They didn't reverse it, the Appeals Court put a stay on the Federal judge's ruling.

For some reason you seemed bound and determined to ignore the facts.
Thats funny because I was about to say the same to you. The reversal he was referring to was to allow the current law to remain in effect. That is a reversal to suspending it.

And he is right again when he said the Obama administration pushed to keep the current law in place until the decesion has been made by the court.
 

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Thats funny because I was about to say the same to you. The reversal he was referring to was to allow the current law to remain in effect. That is a reversal to suspending it.

And he is right again when he said the Obama administration pushed to keep the current law in place until the decesion has been made by the court.
I wasn't debating with him that Obama pushed to keep the current law in place. He stated more than once that it was the Pentagon that ordered a suspension of DADT, when it was actually a federal judge, and that Obama ordered that the Pentagon continue the policy, when it was actually an Appeals Court.

Obama has been pushing to keep the policy because he wants Congress to repeal it in an orderly manner. However, it is intellectually dishonest to claim that he is going against the Pentagon's wishes in this respect or that the Pentagon took it upon itself to suspend the policy.
 
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You stated that it was the Pentagon that ordered the cease of DADT, when it was actually a federal judge and you argued that it was Obama that ordered that DADT continue when it was actually the Appeals Court. You were not even approximately correct.
The judge called it unconstitutional. It was the Pentagon that ordered the halt. You are arguing for nothing.

The Pentagon chose to comply with the judge orders.
The Pentagon gave the order. The judge called it unconstitutional.


No, the Obama administration asked the Appeals court to stay the federal judges orders.
And also instructed the Pentagon that DADT is to stay in effect for the time being, which countered the former order given to the branches. He reversed it.

For some reason you seemed bound and determined to ignore the facts.
God damn, you are stating exactly what I have been stating. Get off your soap box. For some reason you demand a civilian hero on a white horse while stripping the military part in this stupid process. If Obama hadn't said a thing, the Pentagon's policy would right now be agreeing with the judge.
 

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I wasn't debating with him that Obama pushed to keep the current law in place. He stated more than once that it was the Pentagon that ordered a suspension of DADT, when it was actually a federal judge, and that Obama ordered that the Pentagon continue the policy, when it was actually an Appeals Court.
Well, that's your problem. You are debating instead of conversing. There is nothing for you to "win" here. You seem to be absolutely unaware of the Pentagon order to suspend DADT between the judge's finding and Obama's order to continue DADT. It's like you need this all to be a civilian issue to work out and thusly deny the military involvement to end DADT. You know, because the military is supposed to be the gay man's mortal enemy.



Obama has been pushing to keep the policy because he wants Congress to repeal it in an orderly manner.
Which reversed the Pentagon's order to comply with the ****ing judge. ****!
 
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Care to explain to us how heightened privacy rules is dsicrimination?
Because those "heightened privacy rules" would not apply or not apply in the same way to heterosexual personnel. That is discrimination.


Show the official policy, set by the DOD, that discusses the transition of openly gay service members into the system.

As always, thanks in advance.
The DADT policy since its implementation has been the transition, although not an official one.

Under DADT, especially within the last decade, only a person's CO could initiate an investigation into a person's sexuality. And unless there was some official record that actually proved a person was homosexual, a CO could choose to not investigate a person who even stated multiple times and the COC even believed was gay. Which means that every person joining the military should understand that they will be serving with homosexuals, even some who can say that they are homosexual. It would completely depend on the chain of command as to whether the person is discharged or even investigated for simple statements of homosexuality or even public displays out of uniform.

This is a transition from the old policy, which was essentially, if you were suspected of being homosexual, anyone could call you out on it. And if the CO knew about it, not only would he violate the policy of no homosexuals, but also, the person made a false official statement since they used to officially ask about a person's sexuality.
 

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Well, that's your problem. You are debating instead of conversing.
The name of the forum is "Debate" Politics not "Converse" politics.

There is nothing for you to "win" here. You seem to be absolutely unaware of the Pentagon order to suspend DADT between the judge's finding and Obama's order to continue DADT.
The Pentagon suspended DADT in order to comply with the federal court's order. That is the fact, whether you wish to accept it or not.

It's like you need this all to be a civilian issue to work out and thusly deny the military involvement to end DADT. You know, because the military is supposed to be the gay man's mortal enemy.
I simply want you to stop talking bull**** and get with the facts. For starters, learn what an injunction is.

Which reversed the Pentagon's order to comply with the ****ing judge. ****!
Thank you! We are making progress. You admit that the Pentagon was adhering to the federal court's order.
 
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The Pentagon suspended DADT in order to comply with the federal court's order. That is the fact, whether you wish to accept it or not.
YES, THAT IS THE FACT. The same damn fact I have stated over and over for which you cried was false. The Pentagon could have easily ignored it until the President said otherwise. Instead it complied to end the burden for which Obama came out and reversed.

I simply want you to stop talking bull**** and get with the facts.
They are the same damn facts!!!!!

Thank you! We are making progress. You admit that the Pentagon was adhering to the federal court's order.
I've stated this all along. Are you this dense? The judge ordered it unconstitutional, the military jumped at the chance to end the policy. It was Obama that reversed this and kept DADT as the law of the land until further notice.
 

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YES, THAT IS THE FACT. The same damn fact I have stated over and over for which you cried was false. The Pentagon could have easily ignored it until the President said otherwise. Instead it complied to end the burden for which Obama came out and reversed.
Explain to me how the Pentagon could have ignored a court injunction? Obama also did not reverse it, he asked the Appeals court to put a stay on the federal court's injunciton.

They are the same damn facts!!!!!
No they aren't. You refuse to acknowledge what an injunction is and that Obama did not issue some direct order to reverse things.

I've stated this all along. Are you this dense? The judge ordered it unconstitutional, the military jumped at the chance to end the policy.
No it didn't. The judge had to order a world wide injunction to get the Pentagon to cease enforcing the policy.

It was Obama that reversed this and kept DADT as the law of the land until further notice.
No it wasn't. Even though it was Obama who pushed for it, it was the Appeals Court that put a stay on the injunction.
 

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No the judge ordered an injunction on DADT. Do you know what an injunction is?

Judge orders 'don't ask, don't tell' injunction - Yahoo! News

Apparently you do not.

The Pentagon did not simply say, "Oh the courts said this is unconstitutional so we better stop" the judge issued a world wide injunction forcing them to stop.
An injuction is a court order. Thanks for the insult.

Of course, if it was the order you believe it is, then the President would not disobey it would he? Or is he above the law? The judge's order was to declare DADT unconstitutional. It was the Pentagon that went ahead without Commander-in-Chief guidance to end DADT, which was already ignored by over half the military. Your facts are not the facts you think. But who cares about the insignificant details you are so enchanted with? The fact is that without President Obama reversing the Pentagon's order to the branches, gays would be enlisting today with their boyfriends. Or would they? My guess is that nothing will change and that gays will then have to find a new excuse inwhich to cry "persecution."
 

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An injuction is a court order. Thanks for the insult.

Of course, if it was the order you believe it is, then the President would not disobey it would he?
He didn't disobey it, he went to a higher court and asked them to stay it.

Dude, I'm done trying to educate you on the basics of the judicial system. You clearly do not have the capacity to understand this situation. I'll repeat it one more time for you, but that is it.

1. A federal court found DADT unconstitutional.
2. A federal court then decided to issue a world wide injunction to cease the enforcement of DADT.
3. The Pentagon, in order to comply with the federal court's injunction, ceases enforcement of DADT for 8 days.
4. Obama went to the Appeals court, a higher court than the federal court and asked them to put a stay on the injunction.
5. The Appeals Court put a stay on the federal court's injunction.
6. The Pentagon was then able to go back to enforcing DADT.
7. The Log Cabin Republicans who brought the original suit to the federal court sought to have the Supreme Court undo the Appeal Court's stay on the federal Court's injunction.
8. Obama asked the Supreme Court to keep the stay.
9. The Supreme Court decided to keep the stay.

And here we are now. If you can't figure it out with it layed out like that for you as plain as day, then it is completely hopeless.
 
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Explain to me how the Pentagon could have ignored a court injunction? Obama also did not reverse it, he asked the Appeals court to put a stay on the federal court's injunciton.
The same way it has been largely ignoring DADT since 9-11. We don't work for the courts. We work for the Commander-in-Chief and the Senate. The Pentagon was complying to the judge's ruling because DADT is a dead policy. Obama reversed it.

You can place all the technical terms on it as you wish so you can argue and argue and argue, but in the end, we are stating the same damn thing.

No they aren't. You refuse to acknowledge what an injunction is and that Obama did not issue some direct order to reverse things.
You mean the same injuction that Obama dismissed for the time being? You don't seem to understand how set apart from your legal system the military and the Pentagon is.

Obama reversed the Pentagon, which ordered the military to suspend DADT, which was complying with the judgement.


No it didn't. The judge had to order a world wide injunction to get the Pentagon to cease enforcing the policy.
In which the Pentagon went ahead and complied until......what? Obama decided to ignore the "injunction" thyereby reversing the Pentagon's orders to the military?

No it wasn't. Even though it was Obama who pushed for it, it was the Appeals Court that put a stay on the injunction.
You are talking in circles and arguing symantics and insignificant details. This is near and dear to you isn't it? You enlisting?
 

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[QUOTE=Critic
 
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The Pentagon could care less about a court order. You don't seem to get how things work with the military. Unless policy is changed by the military or Washington, policy doesn't change. This judge gave the Pentagon an excuse to free itself from DADT and it took the leap. The same leap the Air Force took before the Pentagon issued the order. But let's just drop the bitching. We'll just say you "won" and call it a day.
I'm not sure I've heard of any case where the Pentagon has not complied with a court order but a win is a win.
 
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