Emergency/No Emergency

[Terryj]

Congress also uses the power to tax and to enforce equal protection of the law to add powers. Unless one can show personal harm (gain standing) and get the SCOTUS to address the matter then there are no limits on what laws congress can enact.

Yes, Congress does have the power to tax, that was granted to Congress under the 16th amendment, this power was granted to congress via the people and the State through the amendment process. Under this amendment Congress can enact laws specific to this amendment. Congress does not have the power to enact laws that fall outside this amendment.

Equal protection was granted under the 14th amendment, again this power was granted to Congress via the amendment process, so Congress has the right to enact laws specific to the 14th amendment. Congress does not have the power to enact laws that fall outside this amendment.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Yes, Congress does have the power to tax, that was granted to Congress under the 16th amendment, this power was granted to congress via the people and the State through the amendment process. Under this amendment Congress can enact laws specific to this amendment. Congress does not have the power to enact laws that fall outside this amendment.

Equal protection was granted under the 14th amendment, again this power was granted to Congress via the amendment process, so Congress has the right to enact laws specific to the 14th amendment. Congress does not have the power to enact laws that fall outside this amendment.

Yet a serious dose of mental (legal?) gymnastics is required to stretch (abuse?) the federal power to "tax income from all sources" into a mandate that one must buy a specific "private" good/service or pay a special federal tax penalty for not having done so.

 

[Phys251]

A decent article on why it is not an 'emergency' from the Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/trump-speech/579850/?utm_source=twb

Highlights:

"Perhaps somebody pointed out that 15-year civil-engineering projects do not look very convincingly like emergency measures. “My house is burning! Time to begin the process of calling for design proposals for a new fire station.”

The solution to that problem is not a lengthy process of design, tendering, land expropriation, grading, and construction. The solution is to get more adjudicators into the asylum system now. If cases are resolved fast, and border-crossers removed promptly, the surge of asylum seekers will abate, as it abated in 2015 after the Barack Obama administration cracked down on the 2014 Central American border surge."

And reminding us it's moot now anyway since trump was forced to abandon it:

"The idea of invoking “emergency powers” was a last grasp for the leverage Trump had already abdicated, and it had to be abandoned for fear of what the courts and public opinion would say."

Maybe tRump should try this approach:

 

[Rich2018]

Now to answer your question as it regards the Wall and him using his Emergency Powers to build it.

I don't honestly know.

While I personally might view 60k per month of illegals attempting to enter our country illegally as a crisis this does not mean that Congress or the law will see it as such.

Trump is going to have to prove that there is an emergency based off of what is in existing law. I do not know the law well enough to know if there is a provision in existing law that allows for the type of emergency that Trump is referring to. If he can't then he has no standing to declare this an emergency and will be shot down by the courts.

If however he can tie it to existing law then he can declare an emergency and the courts (assuming no bias getting involved which frankly now a days I doubt) will not shoot him down.

However if Congress disagree's with Trump and regardless if he can tie it to existing law, Congress can over ride it with a simple majority vote and a Presidential signature OR with a 2/3rds vote that will over ride Trumps ability to Veto.

So we'd just need about 20 GOP senators to find their conscience.

 

[CFI302]

The national emergency POTUS power is not in the constitution at all - it is in a law passed by congress in 1976.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act

Has that law been challenged and overturned?

 

[WeirdoJoker]

Has that law been challenged and overturned?

It has not been challenged yet.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Neal Katyal's final opinion is that he believes that Trump may actually want to be impeached.

The questions that very few people have asked are:

1. If Trump is impeached in the House, will there ever be enough juice to push enough Senate Republicans to convict.

2. If he is impeached only in the House, and the Senate votes to not pursue it further, will his poll numbers rise.*

3. If the threat of impeachment triggers his decision to resign, will he attempt to flee the country, and if so, where will he go?

4. If he does agree to resign based on some kind of "deal" what do people think that "deal" will include?

5. Last but not least, if by some miracle there are sufficient numbers to both impeach (House) AND convict, (Senate) will Donald Trump go willingly, or...???

*I happen to believe that #2 offers insight into Pelosi's statement that impeachment is not on the table.
People seem to believe she wants to cut him a break, but I think it is because she believes that a House impeachment with no follow through would be pointless and it just might martyr him, something she does not want in any way, shape or form, thus she would only seriously consider it if she was certain that it would result in guaranteed removal from office. Your thoughts on that?

 

[marke]

What constitutes a “national emergency?” Trump pretty much states that a “national emergency” is contingent on whether he gets his way or not. If he cannot “get it done” any other way? Can an emergency be based on how the opposition party votes?

To those who know the Constitution better than I, is he on solid ground stating he has the “right” to declare an “emergency?”

Obama first floated the possibility that a president does not need the Congress as long as he has a pen and a phone. Obama was frustrated by partisan gridlock in Congress. That is the same problem which has resulted in the recent government shutdown and border wall battle. How can we make Congress pass laws both sides can live with which will keep the government functioning? Who knows? Just throwing up barricades around unbendable positions and trying to put all the blame on the opponent for not bending is not right and will not get the job done.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

• Most immigrants now aren't crossing the southern border at all. They are flying into the US and overstaying their visa. Since planes can fly over walls, building a wall is largely pointless, and certainly does not justify breaking yet another critical norm that restricts Presidential powers.

• Almost all of the drugs are flowing through ports of entry. Almost no drug mules are going over walls or cutting through fences.

Even after the Central Park Five were acquitted, and Matias Reyes, a convicted murderer and serial rapist in prison, confessed to raping the jogger, and DNA evidence confirmed his guilt, Trump CONTINUED to DOUBLE DOWN and insist that the five young men were the guilty ones.
The cases had been overturned, the real assailant captured, a confession and corroborating DNA evidence and facts known ONLY TO the assailant were proven, and Trump refused to accept the truth.

This is how Donald Trump responds to facts when he believes he is right about something.
One can prove to Trump that immigrants overstay visas and that drugs arrive through ports of entry all day long, and he will simply and stubbornly refuse to believe it.

It is impossible to deal with hidebound ignorance on that level.
And for Trump, it is universal, on all subjects.
He is categorically incapable of learning or taking any kind of correction.
In this regard, he is incorrigible.

It is a good thing that he does not believe that the Earth is FLAT.

 

[Nickyjo]

Okay, let's keep it simple. Are these people crossing the border legal or illegal? Just answer that.

Just as “legal” as the people who employ them. Face it, Trump uses them as a foil, but employers (mostly republican) love them. We’ve been addicted to cheap labor since 1619. It’s the American way.

 

[Nickyjo]

Even after the Central Park Five were acquitted, and Matias Reyes, a convicted murderer and serial rapist in prison, confessed to raping the jogger, and DNA evidence confirmed his guilt, Trump CONTINUED to DOUBLE DOWN and insist that the five young men were the guilty ones.
The cases had been overturned, the real assailant captured, a confession and corroborating DNA evidence and facts known ONLY TO the assailant were proven, and Trump refused to accept the truth.

This is how Donald Trump responds to facts when he believes he is right about something.
One can prove to Trump that immigrants overstay visas and that drugs arrive through ports of entry all day long, and he will simply and stubbornly refuse to believe it.

It is impossible to deal with hidebound ignorance on that level.
And for Trump, it is universal, on all subjects.
He is categorically incapable of learning or taking any kind of correction.
In this regard, he is incorrigible.

It is a good thing that he does not believe that the Earth is FLAT.

With respect, I don’t think that Trump gives a damn about who was guilty in the Central Park case. He’s a bully. He his whole public career and some of his private life has involved stoking fear and putting down of the less powerful. Illegals, Syrian refugees, Central American migrants, the Central Park Five, women he grabbed, suppliers he didn’t pay, all the same to him, because it’s all about him. Remember how he said the people playing fast and loose on Wall Street would suffer if he became president? Never will happen. My favorite action in his administration, typical of his approach, is somewhat obscure: companies that contract with the government will no longer have their record of injuries and fatalities considered in the awarding of said contracts. Why are we not surprised? Marie Antoinette would probably refuse to serve in his administration.

 

[AGENT J]

What constitutes a “national emergency?” Trump pretty much states that a “national emergency” is contingent on whether he gets his way or not. If he cannot “get it done” any other way? Can an emergency be based on how the opposition party votes?

To those who know the Constitution better than I, is he on solid ground stating he has the “right” to declare an “emergency?”

He can definitely declare one. Thats a none issue.
Whether it stands or not who knows . . its kind of vague and i simply dont know but im very doubtful

just based on rational discussion of people theres no sound logic to make it an emergency, numbers wise especial not worth shutting down the government over
the other reality is the plan fact that if one feels it is an emergency a wall wont fix it, it will STILL be an emergency so its beyond stupid to start with and focus on the wall. It wont "fix" the issue.

next i think because of all of that it gets shot down alone but while thats being decided the LOGISTICS of building the wall are insane so unless the emergency lasts years and its in courts for years without a stop at best maybe he could get some people on sight working on exciting parts of the wall maybe some new parts and it still doesnt get done

funny thing is im not even against a wall or barriers in general but i want a REAL plan that isnt some political nonsensical game. if immigration is sooooo important the wall is a band aid on a skinned knee while we have a bullet hole and a knife in us. IMO by itself, water to water, its absolutely monumentally retarded. Why do i feel that way? easy . . if i could snap my fingers RIGHT NOW and a wall magically appeared 30 ft tall across the whole border would the immigration issue and drug isues be fixed? yes or no . . would a large dent even be made, yes or no? both answer based on numbers we have are no . . . . so if its emergency worthy there better be a **** TON more being done and thought of.

but again thats me . . i dont get to decided.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

With respect, I don’t think that Trump gives a damn about who was guilty in the Central Park case. He’s a bully. He his whole public career and some of his private life has involved stoking fear and putting down of the less powerful. Illegals, Syrian refugees, Central American migrants, the Central Park Five, women he grabbed, suppliers he didn’t pay, all the same to him, because it’s all about him. Remember how he said the people playing fast and loose on Wall Street would suffer if he became president? Never will happen. My favorite action in his administration, typical of his approach, is somewhat obscure: companies that contract with the government will no longer have their record of injuries and fatalities considered in the awarding of said contracts. Why are we not surprised? Marie Antoinette would probably refuse to serve in his administration.

I was only pointing out that once he believes something, it doesn't matter if you prove he is incorrect, he just goes on believing it anyway.
If he thought the Moon landing was a hoax filmed in Hollywood, you could take him TO the Moon and he still wouldn't believe it.
If he was a Flat Earther, taking him up into space wouldn't change his mind.

Illegal aliens can be stopped by a wall because to him that is how one hundred percent of them get here, and no one and nothing will ever convince him otherwise because then he doesn't need a wall with "President Trump" plastered all over it anymore.

 

[Rich2018]

What constitutes a “national emergency?” Trump pretty much states that a “national emergency” is contingent on whether he gets his way or not. If he cannot “get it done” any other way? Can an emergency be based on how the opposition party votes?

To those who know the Constitution better than I, is he on solid ground stating he has the “right” to declare an “emergency?”

This is just my opinion but I would say that a national emergency, by its very nature, is not something you can wait for weeks, month or even years before having to address.



If Trump says the situation on the US-Mexico border is an emergency....how can he delay action for three weeks ?

If it's an EMERGENCY, it needs immediate action...or it's not an emergency.

 

[AGENT J]

This is just my opinion but I would say that a national emergency, by its very nature, is not something you can wait for weeks, month or even years before having to address.



If Trump says the situation on the US-Mexico border is an emergency....how can he delay action for three weeks ?

If it's an EMERGENCY, it needs immediate action...or it's not an emergency.

shhhhhhhh dont go posting common sense like that

 

[Rich2018]

shhhhhhhh dont go posting common sense like that

Bet you that will be argument number one at the first court hearing to challenge Trump's emergency declaration - should he be stupid enough to declare one.

 

[bongsaway]

Yes, as POTUS he has the power to declare an emergency. (The government does not have "rights").

As for what constitutes an "emergency"....well....that can be subjective.

IMO......

According to DHS roughly 30k people per month are apprehended trying to cross into the US. The government also bases how many illegal aliens are in the country on how many people are apprehended at the border. So essentially we have 60k people trying to enter the US illegally every month with half of them being caught and the other half making it into the US undetected. Is this less than in previous years? Yes it is. Does that mean its not a crisis? Nope. If a town gets fully flooded one year and then the next 2 years only 3/4ths of the town gets flooded and then the next 3 years it only gets half flooded that does not mean that it still cannot to be considered a crisis. 60k people attempting to enter the US monthly which adds up to 720k per year with half of that succeeding is most definitely a crisis.

So DHS basis how many people got in according to how many they catch, seems rather simplistic. And a town flooding has zero to do with people trying to cross the border. I presume DHS has a vested interest in keeping those numbers up if they want to keep their jobs. Unless I'm mistaken didn't Reagan give amnesty to millions back in the eighties? So I guess it's a slow motion crisis if it's been going on that long and only our current president who couldn't get his wall any other way thinks it's an emergency.

 

[Kal'Stang]

So DHS basis how many people got in according to how many they catch, seems rather simplistic. And a town flooding has zero to do with people trying to cross the border. I presume DHS has a vested interest in keeping those numbers up if they want to keep their jobs. Unless I'm mistaken didn't Reagan give amnesty to millions back in the eighties? So I guess it's a slow motion crisis if it's been going on that long and only our current president who couldn't get his wall any other way thinks it's an emergency.

Bold: Do you know of any other way?

Underlined: It was an analogy to show that just because something isn't as bad as it once was, that doesn't mean that it cannot still be considered an emergency.

Rest: Reagan gave around 3 million illegal immigrants amnesty in 1986 (2.7 if you want to be picky). Which is what was estimated to have been in the US. Reagan was the first President to have ever given amnesty. There have only been 7 Amnesties in the entire US history, 6 of them AFTER Reagan gave his. Don't you find it interesting how for the entire US history up until 1986 illegal immigration was low totaling only 3 million by the time Reagan gave amnesty and then, after that amnesty the illegal immigration rate skyrocketed to today estimated 11-20 million? Giving Amnesties only encourages more illegal immigration.

 

[AGENT J]

Bet you that will be argument number one at the first court hearing to challenge Trump's emergency declaration - should he be stupid enough to declare one.

I think he will . . "politically" i dont think he has a choice

not that i support that or think its right politically but its the politically climate he is in. Things arent going god for him and he took caving like he did so he almost has to try and then when it fails he can say "see i tried" and blame everybody else.

 

[Rich2018]

I think he will . . "politically" i dont think he has a choice

not that i support that or think its right politically but its the politically climate he is in. Things arent going god for him and he took caving like he did so he almost has to try and then when it fails he can say "see i tried" and blame everybody else.

No you're right, Trump HAS to produce something to boast about at his rallies that he can claim is victory...that he can claim amounts to the "big beautiful wall" he promised.


So however unlikely declaring an emergency is to succeed, he'll play it anyway.


If I could draw, I'd draw a gambler with one chip left...and one last throw of the dice...

 

[AGENT J]

No you're right, Trump HAS to produce something to boast about at his rallies that he can claim is victory...that he can claim amounts to the "big beautiful wall" he promised.


So however unlikely declaring an emergency is to succeed, he'll play it anyway.


If I could draw, I'd draw a gambler with one chip left...and one last throw of the dice...

to be honest, I WANT him to. That way it can fail and we can establish a better definition/rules or set a precedent to what a national emergency actually is. That way NO president can go all rogue and tryant like and declare emergencies for totally illogical reasons.

 

[Rich2018]

to be honest, I WANT him to. That way it can fail and we can establish a better definition/rules or set a precedent to what a national emergency actually is. That way NO president can go all rogue and tryant like and declare emergencies for totally illogical reasons.

Totally agree with you.

In 1944 and 1945 the Western Allies were against all attempts to assassinate Hitler. On the grounds that he must be seen to be beaten...not because of some shadowy assassin's bullet.



I'd like to see him exposed as the buffoon and bully he is.


I don't want him impeached...I don't want him to be able to claim Congress and the GOP stabbed him in the back.


I want him to go to America in 2020 and face an electoral landslide against him that utterly destroy's his presidency. A blue wave that totally crushes every rotten thing he stands for.




Perhaps we'll get a couple of Constitutional amendments out of of it too.

 

[American]

Just as “legal” as the people who employ them. Face it, Trump uses them as a foil, but employers (mostly republican) love them. We’ve been addicted to cheap labor since 1619. It’s the American way.

Keep dancing, you're looking silly. You don't dare answer, because then your case is over.

 

[OlNate]

Keep dancing, you're looking silly. You don't dare answer, because then your case is over.

I'll take it. Yes, they are breaking the law. What's your follow up?

 

[American]

I'll take it. Yes, they are breaking the law. What's your follow up?

Thanks, so then it's the border patrols duty to stop them, and our duty to give them what they say they need. They want barriers as part of the solution. Time to stop acting stupid of $5B and pay for the ****ing fence/barrier/wall or whatever physical impediment they want.