Eleven-year-old Shoots Home Invader

[LaMidRighter]

Yes, I agree it's dependent on state law, and my guess would be AL law might be pretty conservative.

But concerning Texas law, does it require the theft to be a felony to use deadly force? And how far can this pursuit be? Can you chase the guy to his car, or his house?

Anyone know?

From my understanding of Texas castle doctrine the shoot becomes legal the moment trespass has been established. I could be wrong on that because it seems pretty lenient in comparison to other property defense laws but that is my own understanding of it.

 

[LaMidRighter]

A firearm is a tool. One-for-twelve shooting is poor use of the tool.

True, but in the same vein, the kid is still around to improve that. Heck, when I was 7 I couldn't use tools as efficiently as I can today, including hammers, chainsaws, and even firearms. The kid survived a home invasion, that to me is a win as he gets to live to improve.

 

[Jack Hays]

True, but in the same vein, the kid is still around to improve that. Heck, when I was 7 I couldn't use tools as efficiently as I can today, including hammers, chainsaws, and even firearms. The kid survived a home invasion, that to me is a win as he gets to live to improve.

Fair enough.

 

[MickeyW]

I doubt that any jury, civil or criminal, will do anything against the kid or his parents.

That will be up to the DA in that jurisdiction....In Calif. or Portland or Seattle, they would throw the book at this kid ...and his parents.

There is a whole list of things the kid did wrong.
1. Not shoot the guy in the house when confronted
2. Shooting at a fleeing person who is no longer a threat to you
3. Firing multiple shots and the further away your target is, the more chance to miss and hit innocent people.
4. Being a piss poor shot

The stepfather may be teaching him how to use the gun....but apparently not when and what the law says!

Maybe, maybe not.

There was a similar thread here a week or two back: Homeowner chases burglar into the alley, then shoots & wounds him. Homeowner was found criminally guilty, and got a mild sentence of 2 mos jailtime + 4 mos home confinement. He's now the defendant in a multi-million dollar civil suit.

But yes, the big difference is this burglar had a gun, which will weigh heavier on the jury.

The thing with juries is though, you never can tell what they'll do!

I'd like to know more about the relationship between the individual and the individuals in the home; it seems from the article they know each-other.

Very true about juries, I've sat in on hundreds of jury trials.

Most likely, the DA would submit this to a Grand Jury. Civilly, the parents asses are hanging way out in the wind.

And.....................where did all the missed shots go?

 

[AGENT J]

Couple things . .

1.) Everybody with 2 brain cells knows an excellent way to get your self shot and or killed is to break into an home and or rob a person.
2.) Im not sure of the laws in this area but Im not sure what the kid did was legal . . .shooting at a person while fleeing. Not only fleeing but fleeing outside the home. Seems he needs a little more education. He should of put all 11 bullets in him on the strait well IMO
3.) If im on the jury I never convict the kid or parents in this situation, sure he was scared etc etc and Im sure a good lawyer could argue that the crime was still in progress and when its an 11yr old vs a grown man the tables could turn at any second so the threat is always present until the burglar is gone.

Anyway while theres some stuff I dont like, oh well, dont break into house and you wont get shot :shrug:

Id rather come home to fines and charges and all my stuff in my house with my kid alive than my stuff stolen and my kid injured dead.

 

[MickeyW]

Don't steal peoples stuff if you don't want to get shot.

A Golden Rule if ever there was one.

Don't come up behind a lady in the elevator and touch her if you don't want your nuts kicked.

That would depend on the lady's age, political persuasion, flexibility and whether she liked it or not.

 

[MickeyW]

It all boils down to state law. In Texas it would have been an absolutely legal shoot, no questions asked, I think a few states have similar laws that state the property line is sufficient for a trespassing self defense shoot. In my state a person would have to prove outside of the domicile that they felt threatened and the boy would be able to make a case. I am not sure about Alabama law.

Here is the crux of the matter....it was no longer a self defense case, when the burglar fled.

I teach people, that if an attacker flees, Do Not Shoot. There are a few mitigating circumstances where that could be different.

 

[MickeyW]

What I am getting from this story is, there is a gun in that house, and the kid knows were it is, and likely has known for some time, and yet...amazingly, somehow, managed to never, not once, shoot and kill himself with it. Strange.

Yes...simply amazing isn't it!

My only concern is that the young man's marksmanship instruction was apparently deficient.

Yes indeed. But then, I have investigated cop shootings which were worse. Then there was that very embarrassing cop, dash cam video, a few years ago.

Because of the multiple shots fired? Could be, but adrenaline is a bitch in a situation like that and he is still a young kid so I am not sure on that one.

See my comments above.
Because of his youth, that may get him a pass with the DA and/or GJ. Won't let the parents off the civil hook.

Unless and until the other guy drops his weapon, he's still a threat whether he's on the property or not.

Not if fleeing. If the perp stops and turns around, then he's fair game.

A firearm is a tool. One-for-twelve shooting is poor use of the tool.

Sure is...

 

[MickeyW]

Yes, I agree it's dependent on state law, and my guess would be AL law might be pretty conservative.

But concerning Texas law, does it require the theft to be a felony to use deadly force? And how far can this pursuit be? Can you chase the guy to his car, or his house?

Anyone know?

In most states, neither a civilian or a cop can shoot over a mis-da-weiner...only a felony! Could be additional penalties for the perp being felony stupid.

I really don't know, but I remember once realizing that in Texas I could drive 75 mph at night on a two-lane road with an open beer and a concealed handgun and be breaking no law.

That my friend is the definition of......FREEDOM!

That is a tough one. The burglar was armed and threaten to kill him so definite threat to him.
Being only 11 years old I don't hold up to the same standards as I would a 21 year old. The shooting of 12 times in the yard with houses nearby is worrysome.

But hand it to the kid for holding his own and not appearing shaken by all this. Luckily this turned out without anyone else being harmed.

As a DA, that would be my take....and no charges filed against the kid or his parents.

True, but in the same vein, the kid is still around to improve that. Heck, when I was 7 I couldn't use tools as efficiently as I can today, including hammers, chainsaws, and even firearms. The kid survived a home invasion, that to me is a win as he gets to live to improve.

Yep, the kid knew how to operate the handgun, held his own and continued same...a lot of moxy and he should get an award.

Couple things . .

1.) Everybody with 2 brain cells knows an excellent way to get your self shot and or killed is to break into an home and or rob a person.
2.) Im not sure of the laws in this area but Im not sure what the kid did was legal . . .shooting at a person while fleeing. Not only fleeing but fleeing outside the home. Seems he needs a little more education. He should of put all 11 bullets in him on the strait well IMO
3.) If im on the jury I never convict the kid or parents in this situation, sure he was scared etc etc and Im sure a good lawyer could argue that the crime was still in progress and when its an 11yr old vs a grown man the tables could turn at any second so the threat is always present until the burglar is gone.

Anyway while theres some stuff I dont like, oh well, dont break into house and you wont get shot :shrug:

Id rather come home to fines and charges and all my stuff in my house with my kid alive than my stuff stolen and my kid injured dead.

Ditto!

 

[Chomsky]

From my understanding of Texas castle doctrine the shoot becomes legal the moment trespass has been established. I could be wrong on that because it seems pretty lenient in comparison to other property defense laws but that is my own understanding of it.

Yeah, and I obviously was not expecting you to know the details of the law.

But there must be some reasonable limits as to how to handle violent deadly pursuit by an armed citizen.

 

[Chomsky]

That is a tough one. The burglar was armed and threaten to kill him so definite threat to him.
Being only 11 years old I don't hold up to the same standards as I would a 21 year old. The shooting of 12 times in the yard with houses nearby is worrysome.

But hand it to the kid for holding his own and not appearing shaken by all this. Luckily this turned out without anyone else being harmed.

Well, no one harmed but the bad guy!

 

[Chomsky]

That will be up to the DA in that jurisdiction....In Calif. or Portland or Seattle, they would throw the book at this kid ...and his parents.

There is a whole list of things the kid did wrong.
1. Not shoot the guy in the house when confronted
2. Shooting at a fleeing person who is no longer a threat to you
3. Firing multiple shots and the further away your target is, the more chance to miss and hit innocent people.
4. Being a piss poor shot

The stepfather may be teaching him how to use the gun....but apparently not when and what the law says!



Very true about juries, I've sat in on hundreds of jury trials.

Most likely, the DA would submit this to a Grand Jury. Civilly, the parents asses are hanging way out in the wind.

And.....................where did all the missed shots go?

All excellent comment, Mickey.

 

[LaMidRighter]

Yeah, and I obviously was expecting you to know the details of the law.

But there must be some reasonable limits as to how to handle violent deadly pursuit by an armed citizen.

Pretty much most places self defense stops once an assailant discontinues force. Some people say that you should allow them to run, I don't think that's the best tactic and hopefully they don't attack another person successfully right after. I personally believe in making a citizens' arrest and holding them for police but even then you have certain potential issues if they refuse to comply. Basically, most places you become the attacker if you shoot them while they are fleeing.

 

[Jack Hays]

Yeah, and I obviously was expecting you to know the details of the law.

But there must be some reasonable limits as to how to handle violent deadly pursuit by an armed citizen.

If this is to be believed it's unexpectedly narrow.

[h=3]Texas Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground 101 - Texas Gun Talk[/h]www.texasguntalk.com › ... › Texas Concealed Handgun (CHL)


Sep 15, 2012 - 4 posts - ‎1 author
Inside your"castle," under certain circumstances, Texas law presumes you actedreasonably and justifiably if you use force or deadly force to defend yourselfagainst an intruder who enters your occupied habitation, vehicle, or place ofbusiness or employment.

 

[LaMidRighter]

Yes...simply amazing isn't it!



Yes indeed. But then, I have investigated cop shootings which were worse. Then there was that very embarrassing cop, dash cam video, a few years ago.



See my comments above.
Because of his youth, that may get him a pass with the DA and/or GJ. Won't let the parents off the civil hook.



Not if fleeing. If the perp stops and turns around, then he's fair game.



Sure is...

If I were on a civil jury for a guy who got shot trying to rob a kid they would not only lose that case but pick up cost for the family's defense.

 

[LaMidRighter]

Here is the crux of the matter....it was no longer a self defense case, when the burglar fled.

I teach people, that if an attacker flees, Do Not Shoot. There are a few mitigating circumstances where that could be different.

Most of the time it is over at that point, every once in a while one may try to circle back and blindside, those are the ones I worry about but there is no coverage for that in self defense law. Personally, I could care less if an assailant gets shot in the back, legally, different story.

 

[MickeyW]

Yeah, and I obviously was not expecting you to know the details of the law.

But there must be some reasonable limits as to how to handle violent deadly pursuit by an armed citizen.

Yes...Hold fire! Unless threatened or a third person is being threatened and you must stop the perp.

Pretty much most places self defense stops once an assailant discontinues force. Some people say that you should allow them to run, I don't think that's the best tactic and hopefully they don't attack another person successfully right after. I personally believe in making a citizens' arrest and holding them for police but even then you have certain potential issues if they refuse to comply. Basically, most places you become the attacker if you shoot them while they are fleeing.

I tell folks to Let them Go and Do Not pursue, or if you do pursue...don't shoot unless threatened....and Observe and Report!

If this is to be believed it's unexpectedly narrow.

[h=3]Texas Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground 101 - Texas Gun Talk[/h]www.texasguntalk.com › ... › Texas Concealed Handgun (CHL)


Sep 15, 2012 - 4 posts - ‎1 author
Inside your"castle," under certain circumstances, Texas law presumes you actedreasonably and justifiably if you use force or deadly force to defend yourselfagainst an intruder who enters your occupied habitation, vehicle, or place ofbusiness or employment.

Here in Oregon, the main theme is "In fear of your life, or that of a third party" ...location doesn't matter.

If I were on a civil jury for a guy who got shot trying to rob a kid they would not only lose that case but pick up cost for the family's defense.

Ditto!

Most of the time it is over at that point, every once in a while one may try to circle back and blindside, those are the ones I worry about but there is no coverage for that in self defense law. Personally, I could care less if an assailant gets shot in the back, legally, different story.

That's a point my wife just brought up. She said when she was 12, she knew nothing about all these laws(many adults don't either) and would be afraid that the man would come back, sneak into the house and kill her for even shooting at him. That day or another day ...and that's why she would shoot at him running away.
Looking at this from a child vs. adult situation.......to me, that's a valid point. It doesn't follow the law, but the age of, and what is in the mind of, the threatened child........... is a huge mitgating factor!

 

[Manc Skipper]

Somebody needs to train these lawless toddlers!

 

[Goshin]

Well, no one harmed but the bad guy!

Which is fine by me. Yeah, strictly speaking the kid probably shouldn't have been shooting under these circumstances... but my sympathies lie with the honest folk, not the thief.

 

[Goshin]

Somebody needs to train these lawless toddlers!

Not particularly relevant to the OP.

 

[American]

My only concern is that the young man's marksmanship instruction was apparently deficient.

Probably never practiced on a moving target, so give him a break.

 

[Jack Hays]

Probably never practiced on a moving target, so give him a break.

A fair point.

 

[_Sal]

I think the kid sounds like a liar and thinks he pulled a Clint Eastwood and almost everyone in this thread is so happy for him that you are all wetting yourself with glee...

:roll:

this kid's story is fishy as hell

 

[Jack Hays]

I think the kid sounds like a liar and thinks he pulled a Clint Eastwood and almost everyone in this thread is so happy for him that you are all wetting yourself with glee...

:roll:

this kid's story is fishy as hell

We await your evidence.

 

[_Sal]

We await your evidence.

yeah well, since there is only one rational person in this thread besides me, regardless of what I post, it will be dismissed

but here ya go....knock yourself out

“When he was coming down the stairs, that’s when he told me he was going to kill me, f-you and all that,” Chris said.

Instead of running, Chris told the station, he upgraded his weaponry, picking up a 9mm handgun that was in the home.

Chris said he threatened to kill the man and ordered him to get out of the house.

so buddy the burglar is coming down the stairs and the kids says: "hang on, let me go (some place and upgrade)

and the burglar freezes ya know like in the movies and waits for the chubby kid to upgrade from a knife to a gun without even blinking


pathetic