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Electrocution for DP cases violate the 8th Amendment?

Electrocution for DP cases violate the 8th Amendment?


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pamak

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I'm not into bible study. Just wondering if you are sure?
As much as a human can be.

This is not about religious knowledge.

It is about the English language.

How else can you interpreter the verse that was written in the language that was used during Shakespeare's time?

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15Thou shalt not steal. 16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
 

EMNofSeattle

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As much as a human can be.

This is not about religious knowledge.

It is about the English language.

How else can you interpreter the verse that was written in the language that was used during Shakespeare's time?

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15Thou shalt not steal. 16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
No, Christian moral theology is not a matter of the English language
 

skeptic llc

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As much as a human can be.

This is not about religious knowledge.

It is about the English language.

How else can you interpreter the verse that was written in the language that was used during Shakespeare's time?

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15Thou shalt not steal. 16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
You could interpret it in a lot of ways. It's unlikely to be intended literally. All of us kill regularly -- accidentally or deliberately killing insects or plants, for example. Assuming it was intended to be confined to humans, there are still all kinds of questions about what killing was intended to be prohibited vs. permitted. Executing criminals? Killing in war? Killing in self-defense? Euthanasia? Etc.
 

pamak

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You could interpret it in a lot of ways. It's unlikely to be intended literally. All of us kill regularly -- accidentally or deliberately killing insects or plants, for example. Assuming it was intended to be confined to humans, there are still all kinds of questions about what killing was intended to be prohibited vs. permitted. Executing criminals? Killing in war? Killing in self-defense? Euthanasia? Etc.
The discussion started with this
So that quote is not from the Bible. Because if it were in the Bible it would be easy for you to just cite it
All I showed is that the quote IS in the Bible.

Now, you can analyze the quote however you want, but you cannot deny that it exists for the English-speaking Christians.

By the way, notice that the laguage is the same for not stealing.
 

pamak

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No, Christian moral theology is not a matter of the English language
It is a matter of the translation too.

And the same is true with the Jewish translation from ancient scriptures which often use archaic language.
 

pamak

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Courts and the justice system are made up of people.
People make mistakes, or do things for unjust reason

Are you unaware of the Ten Commandments?
He accepts only the Jewish script of the ten commandments and wants to teach us ancient Hebrew or whatever...
 

Cordelier

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Seems to me that the death penalty is - by it's very nature - both cruel and unusual.

Pretty much every state mandates some degree of extraordinary consent (ie, jury unanimity in sentencing) before the death penalty can be imposed... so how is that not "unusual"?
 

skeptic llc

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Seems to me that the death penalty is - by it's very nature - both cruel and unusual.

Pretty much every state mandates some degree of extraordinary consent (ie, jury unanimity in sentencing) before the death penalty can be imposed... so how is that not "unusual"?
By that thinking, any punishment that is more severe than most, or more lenient than most, would qualify as "unusual."
 

Cordelier

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By that thinking, any punishment that is more severe than most, or more lenient than most, would qualify as "unusual."
True... but not all can be considered "cruel" - the 8th only prohibits cruel AND unusual punishments.
 

skeptic llc

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True... but not all can be considered "cruel" - the 8th only prohibits cruel AND unusual punishments.
Pretty much any punishment can be considered cruel. That's why it's punishment -- it sucks. My point is that the "unusual" prong requires more than just something not being the average and ordinary punishment.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Seems to me that the death penalty is - by it's very nature - both cruel and unusual.

Pretty much every state mandates some degree of extraordinary consent (ie, jury unanimity in sentencing) before the death penalty can be imposed... so how is that not "unusual"?
That is because liberal judges invented these concepts in the 70s. The Earl Warren court illegally usurped state power to impose the death penalty in the 70s and there was so much political opposition that two years later they partially reversed but created a phony Byzantine legal web of conditions to impose it.
 

Grand Mal

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The death penalty is how cultures that demand and assume obedience deal with transgressions. Muslim societies, Asian societies. Societies that are bound in medieval concepts of sin and punishment.
People in more advanced cultures don't give the State the power to execute citizens.
 

EMNofSeattle

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The death penalty is how cultures that demand and assume obedience deal with transgressions. Muslim societies, Asian societies. Societies that are bound in medieval concepts of sin and punishment.
People in more advanced cultures don't give the State the power to execute citizens.
Saudi Arabia, Singapore and Japan are very advanced.

And besides aren’t you the guy who says advanced civilization is evil?
 

Grand Mal

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Saudi Arabia, Singapore and Japan are very advanced.

And besides aren’t you the guy who says advanced civilization is evil?
Yeah, and even more evil when the State has the power to execute citizens.
Do you consider Saudi Arabia, Singapore and Japan to be exemplary societies?
 

EMNofSeattle

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Yeah, and even more evil when the State has the power to execute citizens.
Do you consider Saudi Arabia, Singapore and Japan to be exemplary societies?
They are culturally superior to the US in many ways.
I think Saudi Arabia would form the basis for the type of Theocratic monarchy with enforced morality that I would like to live under. Just a Christian one instead of Muslim.

in Saudi Arabia two parent families are the norm, divorce and single motherhood are unheard of,alcoholism is non existent, taxes are low, politics is functional, there’s no civil service boards full of overweight feminists making arbitrary rules that constrain the economy.
No election madness or contested elections, etc. high civic nationalism and social capital. What’s the problem with Saudi Arabia ?
 

trouble13

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Electrocution for DP cases violate the 8th Amendment?



I am against the death penality in principle but if we are gonna use it, i dont really care how its carried out. The end result is the same. The person dies. The vehicle that gets them there is unimportant.
 

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Just what form of punishment should be applied for the worst crimes committed?
 

TU Curmudgeon

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Can ya tell me what happens to the executed that are later cleared?
Why, <SARC>the government digs them up and apologizes profusely before giving them a huge "Green Poultice"</SARC>.

More seriously, that seldom happens. Since the case is closed and any change in the outcome is moot the courts are not likely to allow any reopening (there not being any living person with any standing to even bring on the case for an appeal) and thus the verdict of "Guilty" stands.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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Death penalty is a ghastly hangover from medieval times and its liturgy of executions of heretics.
Actually

As far back as the Ancient Laws of China, the death penalty has been established as a punishment for crimes. In the 18th Century BC, the Code of King Hammurabi of Babylon codified the death penalty for twenty five different crimes, although murder was not one of them. The first death sentence historically recorded occurred in 16th Century BC Egypt where the wrongdoer, a member of nobility, was accused of magic, and ordered to take his own life. During this period non-nobility was usually killed with an ax.
[SOURCE]​

it goes back just a tiny bit further than that.

We have the last meal, the empty cartridge in firing squads (for what?), ...
The "blank cartridge" is a sop so that each member of the firing squad can pretend that it was NOT THEY who fired the shot that killed someone.

...the prospect of a stay at the last minute, the family of the victim approving, (suppose they oppose the execution?), the last mile and last words.
True, it used to be much simpler.

If a murderer killed his victim like that, we would pronounce it the height of sadism: “Ok, buddy, I’m not going to murder you now, but in a couple of hours. Here’s a clock to keep you company. And this is the way I am going to do it. Think about that. And the guy, your accomplice, who turned states evidence to rat you out, will be free in 20 years.”
That very much lines up with what I said earlier about "cruel", doesn't it?

I think of the DA, in Texas or somewhere, who campaigned for higher office with an ad showing blown up photos of the guys he had sent to their deaths. Who wouldn’t vote for that guy? All that was missing were scalps hanging from his belt.
That's politics and the ONLY relevant question about the probity of the actions is "Did he win the election?".

Capital punishment, like torture, demeans everyone involved.
To a large extent I agree with you. However, there are some people whom I would not have the least bit of hesitation in acting as the executioner. Those people are guilty without ANY doubt, committed multiple murders, exhibited absolutely no genuine remorse, and are so pathologically disturbed that there is no realistic chance that they will ever be rehabilitated.
[/QUOTE]
 

TU Curmudgeon

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That post was so hilariously wrong that it made my night.
Yes, but, since the verdict was never altered, that means that he was never "cleared" and, in fact, under American law, remains **G*U*I*L*T*Y**.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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I do not know what “thou shalt not kill” exactly meant in 17th century Protestant England, however the original Hebrew shows the commandment only prohibits killing when the killing would assign bloodguilt to the slayer.

the verb used is “ratsach”(רָצַח) which is only used in reference to murders in violation of the law. The books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy go on to authorize the death penalty and assign massive lists of crimes for which death is the sentence
Yep, don't let a real, true, original, bible believer catch you dining on "Surf & Turf".
 

Nickyjo

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Actually

As far back as the Ancient Laws of China, the death penalty has been established as a punishment for crimes. In the 18th Century BC, the Code of King Hammurabi of Babylon codified the death penalty for twenty five different crimes, although murder was not one of them. The first death sentence historically recorded occurred in 16th Century BC Egypt where the wrongdoer, a member of nobility, was accused of magic, and ordered to take his own life. During this period non-nobility was usually killed with an ax.
[SOURCE]​

it goes back just a tiny bit further than that.
++ Sorry, point well taken. I was thinking about the rituals surrounding the death penalty in the West.

The "blank cartridge" is a sop so that each member of the firing squad can pretend that it was NOT THEY who fired the shot that killed someone.
++ My point exactly. It's almost as if we feel guilty about what we are doing.
True, it used to be much simpler.
That very much lines up with what I said earlier about "cruel", doesn't it?



That's politics and the ONLY relevant question about the probity of the actions is "Did he win the election?".
++ It's an example of sick politics, the assumption that support of the death penalty has something to do with law and order or reducing crime. It's a lottery fixed a bit by race. We select a few, who may be the worst, or the worst represented, or prosecuted by a certain DA, and feel as if we are doing something.

To a large extent I agree with you. However, there are some people whom I would not have the least bit of hesitation in acting as the executioner. Those people are guilty without ANY doubt, committed multiple murders, exhibited absolutely no genuine remorse, and are so pathologically disturbed that there is no realistic chance that they will ever be rehabilitated.
[/QUOTE]
++ How do all of our democratic allies survive without the death penalty, and have lower homicide rates?
 
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