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Electric vehicles “unclean at any speed”?

apdst

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Oops! Looks like the greenies lose another one.
Ozzie Zehner, who worked on the experimental EV-1 at GM before it got shelved, says some of the complications are due to the economics of science and scientific research. Most of the funding comes from interested parties, which tends to produce research that supports their positions. Zehner suggests that readers “follow the money” to “get a sense of how biases creep in.” What ends up happening, Zehner explains, is that the research on the environmental impact of EVs begins and ends at the tailpipe of internal-combustion vehicles as the sole comparison.
On that basis, EVs look environmentally friendly. When comparing the entire life cycle of EVs to their gasoline- or diesel-fueled counterparts, though, the picture changes dramatically, as Zehner discovered:

Electric vehicles “unclean at any speed”? « Hot Air
 

joko104

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I've always pointed out that an electric really is actually a coal-powered car.
 

specklebang

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This must have been the reaction of the guys who saw the first motor-car. What a ridiculous concept. Horses and buggies work just fine and those car things will just pollute the environment.

Instead of trying to pin electric vehicle development on a political group, you should pin it on progress. Obviously the earlier EV models will be problematic. So were the early cars that required you to manually crank the engine. Look at how cars have evolved over the years.

The EV is the car of the 21st century. In 50 years, people will make jokes about fossil-fuel cars and how primitive they were. How progress became political, I'll never understand. If I buy one more car before I die, I want an EV. If I can hold out 5 more years, the batteries will get smaller and last longer. Maybe I'll be able to get one that can fly as well.

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Oops! Looks like the greenies lose another one.
 

apdst

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This must have been the reaction of the guys who saw the first motor-car. What a ridiculous concept. Horses and buggies work just fine and those car things will just pollute the environment.

Instead of trying to pin electric vehicle development on a political group, you should pin it on progress. Obviously the earlier EV models will be problematic. So were the early cars that required you to manually crank the engine. Look at how cars have evolved over the years.

The EV is the car of the 21st century. In 50 years, people will make jokes about fossil-fuel cars and how primitive they were. How progress became political, I'll never understand. If I buy one more car before I die, I want an EV. If I can hold out 5 more years, the batteries will get smaller and last longer. Maybe I'll be able to get one that can fly as well.

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Did the automobile have to be kept alive with government aubsidies?
 

specklebang

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Yes, of course.

In order to support the development of the automobile, we built an entire highway system. Not to mention traffic lights, parking lots, bridges, ferry boats and other infrastructure that costs more than what little they are investing in these cars. Not to mention the billions that they use to subsidize the oil industry. Not to mention the technology patents like GPS and plastics that they build cars from. So, yes, sure. That's their job. If they would invest more in development and less in pushing us around, we'd all be better off.



Did the automobile have to be kept alive with government aubsidies?
 

ChuckBerry

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That's classy.

To your larger point, EV's overall may not be the silver bullet for either fuel efficiency or environment. Compact diesel engines approach hybrid gas/electric vehicles in fuel economy, are generally cheaper and provide much more low end torque, plus have engines that are sturdily built and can last decades with proper maintenance. EV batteries atm only last about ten years, and there are the problems of disposal.

Gasoline Direct Inject engines are now allowing compacts to exceed 40 MPG on the highway with much more respectable power than tiny engines of the past, and are even cheaper than diesel engines.

Granted, if you do mostly city driving, a hybrid gas/electric is a great choice, since the electricity is created by regenerative breaking and not from the power grid. EV's will occupy a niche, but I don't think they'll ever replace ICE's as transportation.
 

specklebang

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I understand your point but the presumption that we will never run out of oil is a precarious position. Our resources are not infinite. If the presence of the hybrids and the diesels provode competition to encourage the EV development, we'll be glad we did - someday.

Sure, EVs are totally primitive now. You have to start somewhere. Batteries have a long, long way to go but they are working on it. When I was but a lad, if you said we would send a robot to Mars to look around, you'd have been sent to the funny farm. Now, its hardly a big deal. Today's niche is tomorrows commonplace.




That's classy.

To your larger point, EV's overall may not be the silver bullet for either fuel efficiency or environment. Compact diesel engines approach hybrid gas/electric vehicles in fuel economy, are generally cheaper and provide much more low end torque, plus have engines that are sturdily built and can last decades with proper maintenance. EV batteries atm only last about ten years, and there are the problems of disposal.

Gasoline Direct Inject engines are now allowing compacts to exceed 40 MPG on the highway with much more respectable power than tiny engines of the past, and are even cheaper than diesel engines.

Granted, if you do mostly city driving, a hybrid gas/electric is a great choice, since the electricity is created by regenerative breaking and not from the power grid. EV's will occupy a niche, but I don't think they'll ever replace ICE's as transportation.
 

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I understand your point but the presumption that we will never run out of oil is a precarious position. Our resources are not infinite. If the presence of the hybrids and the diesels provode competition to encourage the EV development, we'll be glad we did - someday.

It will be centuries before we run out of oil . Remember that coal can be made into oil too

Sure, EVs are totally primitive now. You have to start somewhere. Batteries have a long, long way to go but they are working on it. When I was but a lad, if you said we would send a robot to Mars to look around, you'd have been sent to the funny farm. Now, its hardly a big deal. Today's niche is tomorrows commonplace

Far rarer Lithium is currently the best medium for storage of battery energy and we'll likely run out of that long before we need to worry about oil.
 

specklebang

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Can you tell me why we have a strategic oli reserve? Why is it government policy for decades to impede the full development of US oil reserves. Sure, Obama is the biggest impeder yet but there is an underlying motive to not be the country that runs out of oil first. That's not new at all.

In 1973 the cover of Newsweek read "Running Out Of Everything". It was not so. But to simply assume that poil will be cheap or available in sufficient quantities to maintain not just us, but our Military in particular. Those jets use a lot of fuel. In case I'm right, this will help you prepare The Windup Girl

My position is that when a few billion more people start making a better life and buy vehicles and as nations arm themselves with increasing large battle equipment, I think its possible to overestimate our capabilities.

Lithium. Yes, I can see you are not a fan of EVs. When I was a teenager, only Dick Tracy and Sci-Fi books had cellphones. Now, think about the early cellphones and what they have become today as batteries improved to where you can watch full length films on your cellphone. Batteries constantly improve.

Now I could be wrong and this whole EV thing is just a fad and nobody wants to keep going. A big fail of some size. But I doubt it, EVs make sense to me. If Tesla makes it, I think that EVs will prosper. Otherwise, it may be a long time. But a lot of money is being bet on this ELECTRIC CARS AVAILABLE NOW

I suppose we'll see.




It will be centuries before we run out of oil . Remember that coal can be made into oil too



Far rarer Lithium is currently the best medium for storage of battery energy and we'll likely run out of that long before we need to worry about oil.
 

Occam's Razor

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That's classy.

To your larger point, EV's overall may not be the silver bullet for either fuel efficiency or environment. Compact diesel engines approach hybrid gas/electric vehicles in fuel economy, are generally cheaper and provide much more low end torque, plus have engines that are sturdily built and can last decades with proper maintenance. EV batteries atm only last about ten years, and there are the problems of disposal.

A proper comparison for the engine is not the energy storage, but the motor, which will last over 50 years. Electrics also have all torque available from the first revolution. Which is why a 20 hp motor can replace a 120 hp engine.

Ya, that model T shore is nice, but ain't never gonna be practical for nothin' but showin off and short trips to the general store. No way it could make a long trip on these roads. Besides, if your axle breaks on your buggy, you can unhitch the horse and ride home for help.
 

Threegoofs

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Far rarer Lithium is currently the best medium for storage of battery energy and we'll likely run out of that long before we need to worry about oil.

LOL.

Lithium is common, and abundant.

It's not running out anytime soon, whereas oil is much rarer and increasingly hard to get at.

But thanks for playing.
 

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A proper comparison for the engine is not the energy storage, but the motor, which will last over 50 years. Electrics also have all torque available from the first revolution. Which is why a 20 hp motor can replace a 120 hp engine.

Ya, that model T shore is nice, but ain't never gonna be practical for nothin' but showin off and short trips to the general store. No way it could make a long trip on these roads. Besides, if your axle breaks on your buggy, you can unhitch the horse and ride home for help.

The biggest issue is the use of batteries. The military with thier unlimited budgets have been trying to increase the longevity of conventional submarine batteries for more than a century but even allowing for all that investment the diesel electric submarine is extremely limited by thier use. I see the battery option as a technological cul de sac that compromises the practicality of current ICE vehicles and can never be a viable alternative for that reason.
 

Occam's Razor

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It will be centuries before we run out of oil . Remember that coal can be made into oil too



Far rarer Lithium is currently the best medium for storage of battery energy and we'll likely run out of that long before we need to worry about oil.

Why... why.... WHY? Why is everyone in such a hurry to BURN the last drops of oil when it is such a strategic commodity for fertilizers, plastics, MEDICINES, adhesives, etc.

Oh, and we'll never run out of oil, because the last bits will be to dirty and hard to extract to be worth the bother. And this will happen far sooner than a century time scale... maybe decades.

As for lithium being the best... sure, right now. You should check out graphene.

"whale oil is the best way to light a house after sunset. Besides, kerosene is so rare, you can get whale oil anywhere. And it's not as though the ocean will ever run out of whales, remember, you can use fish oil too... and you don't have to dig a hole hundreds of feet in the ground on a guess...
 

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Why... why.... WHY? Why is everyone in such a hurry to BURN the last drops of oil when it is such a strategic commodity for fertilizers, plastics, MEDICINES, adhesives, etc.

We arent just about to do that any time soon

Oh, and we'll never run out of oil, because the last bits will be to dirty and hard to extract to be worth the bother. And this will happen far sooner than a century time scale... maybe decades.

Nonsense. Coal oil synthesisation will amply fulfill our needs should conventional reserves run low

As for lithium being the best... sure, right now. You should check out graphene.

"whale oil is the best way to light a house after sunset. Besides, kerosene is so rare, you can get whale oil anywhere. And it's not as though the ocean will ever run out of whales, remember, you can use fish oil too... and you don't have to dig a hole hundreds of feet in the ground on a guess

Batteries are simply impractical and any solution to those impracticalities isnt just around the corner. I'm sure the developers of current chemical space rockets can imagine something like warp drive happening in the future too but that isnt just about to happen either.
 

Occam's Razor

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We arent just about to do that any time soon



Nonsense. Coal oil synthesisation will amply fulfill our needs should conventional reserves run low



Batteries are simply impractical and any solution to those impracticalities isnt just around the corner. I'm sure the developers of current chemical space rockets can imagine something like warp drive happening in the future too but that isnt just about to happen either.

Coal synthesis at what cost? Not just production and consumer cost, environmental cost, health cost, community cost...

As for graphene... it's right now. No imagination needed.
 

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Coal synthesis at what cost? Not just production and consumer cost, environmental cost, health cost, community cost...

Most importantly of all an affordable cost. Greens always ignore that one

As for graphene... it's right now. No imagination needed

Unless it can match the practical utility of the ICE coupled with similar affordability its a non starter
 

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There is something very curious with electric cars.

It was just a few years ago when the "Green Folks" were screaming about the huge problem with disposal of flashlight batteries and today the same folks are all chanting praises about electric car batteries.

Calm
 

Lord of Planar

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I've always pointed out that an electric really is actually a coal-powered car.

Pretty much since it is coal that is supply excess power needs.
 

MoSurveyor

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That's classy.

To your larger point, EV's overall may not be the silver bullet for either fuel efficiency or environment. Compact diesel engines approach hybrid gas/electric vehicles in fuel economy, are generally cheaper and provide much more low end torque, plus have engines that are sturdily built and can last decades with proper maintenance. EV batteries atm only last about ten years, and there are the problems of disposal.

Gasoline Direct Inject engines are now allowing compacts to exceed 40 MPG on the highway with much more respectable power than tiny engines of the past, and are even cheaper than diesel engines.

Granted, if you do mostly city driving, a hybrid gas/electric is a great choice, since the electricity is created by regenerative breaking and not from the power grid. EV's will occupy a niche, but I don't think they'll ever replace ICE's as transportation.
Yes, the batteries are and for awhile will be a problem but the electric powertrain lasts much longer than any ICE and requires virtually no maintenance. ICE engines, on the other hand, have had over a century of R&D and are pushing their limits and they're still wasting 75% or more of their energy, mostly as heat and grounding metal to powder. You'd have to manufacture 2 ICE engines and do complete a overhaul/rebuild once each to equal just one electric powertrain with no overhaul/rebuild - and that's not counting however many transmissions you'd go through in that time.
 
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MoSurveyor

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Why... why.... WHY? Why is everyone in such a hurry to BURN the last drops of oil when it is such a strategic commodity for fertilizers, plastics, MEDICINES, adhesives, etc.
I've been preaching that for over a year, now. If we would stop burning oil for fuel we wouldn't need imported oil at all, which is a huge plus for national security.
 

MoSurveyor

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There is something very curious with electric cars.

It was just a few years ago when the "Green Folks" were screaming about the huge problem with disposal of flashlight batteries and today the same folks are all chanting praises about electric car batteries.

Calm
People won't be throwing their car battery packs into the trash anytime soon. :lol:
 
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