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Electric Cars A Scam

LowDown

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While electric cars typically emit less CO₂, the savings are smaller than most imagine. Over a 150,000 km lifetime, the top-line Tesla S will emit about 13 tonnes of CO₂. But the production of its batteries alone will emit 14 tonnes, along with seven more from the rest of its production and eventual decommissioning.

Compare this with the diesel-powered, but similarly performing, Audi A7 Sportback, which uses about seven litres per 100km, so about 10,500 litres over its lifetime. This makes 26 tonnes of CO₂. The Audi will also emit slightly more than 7 tons in production and end-of-life. In total, the Tesla will emit 34 tonnes and the Audi 35. So over a decade, the Tesla will save the world 1.2 tonnes of CO₂.

Moving a 4000 lb vehicle down the road requires a certain amount of energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Likewise, building the vehicle and dealing with it after its useful life has ended requires energy. If that energy comes from carbon fuel burning plants then it's no different in terms of emissions than a vehicle that burns its fuel on board. The idea that electric cars have zero emissions is false. More than false, really, a lie. Because Elon Musk knows better, but he still depends on the falsehood of zero emissions to make sales.

Don't be fooled - Elon Musk's electric cars aren't about to save the planet
 

Mycroft

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Moving a 4000 lb vehicle down the road requires a certain amount of energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Likewise, building the vehicle and dealing with it after its useful life has ended requires energy. If that energy comes from carbon fuel burning plants then it's no different in terms of emissions than a vehicle that burns its fuel on board. The idea that electric cars have zero emissions is false. More than false, really, a lie. Because Elon Musk knows better, but he still depends on the falsehood of zero emissions to make sales.

Don't be fooled - Elon Musk's electric cars aren't about to save the planet

You and the article writer may be correct but, other than people with a conservative lean and people who are not useful idiots, who cares?

Electric cars make some people feel good about themselves and they satisfy the desire of others to use the government...in every way they can...to control the citizenry.

That's all that matters.
 

FreedomFromAll

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Moving a 4000 lb vehicle down the road requires a certain amount of energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Likewise, building the vehicle and dealing with it after its useful life has ended requires energy. If that energy comes from carbon fuel burning plants then it's no different in terms of emissions than a vehicle that burns its fuel on board. The idea that electric cars have zero emissions is false. More than false, really, a lie. Because Elon Musk knows better, but he still depends on the falsehood of zero emissions to make sales.

Don't be fooled - Elon Musk's electric cars aren't about to save the planet

So in 16 years electric cars be able to compete with the combustion engine. That isnt very long from now.

Personally I would rather drive a electric vehicle if it was affordable.


 

Fenton

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Of course they're a scam. Musk has been pulling the wool over the eyes of the average Liberal for years.
 

Manc Skipper

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How can you not like a car with a "ludicrous" mode? (0-60 in 2.8 seconds)

 

WCH

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Moving a 4000 lb vehicle down the road requires a certain amount of energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Likewise, building the vehicle and dealing with it after its useful life has ended requires energy. If that energy comes from carbon fuel burning plants then it's no different in terms of emissions than a vehicle that burns its fuel on board. The idea that electric cars have zero emissions is false. More than false, really, a lie. Because Elon Musk knows better, but he still depends on the falsehood of zero emissions to make sales.

Don't be fooled - Elon Musk's electric cars aren't about to save the planet

Not to mention the cost of replacement and disposal issues of old batteries.

Then there's this issue;

Can electric vehicles self-charge? | Plug In America
 

joG

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Moving a 4000 lb vehicle down the road requires a certain amount of energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Likewise, building the vehicle and dealing with it after its useful life has ended requires energy. If that energy comes from carbon fuel burning plants then it's no different in terms of emissions than a vehicle that burns its fuel on board. The idea that electric cars have zero emissions is false. More than false, really, a lie. Because Elon Musk knows better, but he still depends on the falsehood of zero emissions to make sales.

Don't be fooled - Elon Musk's electric cars aren't about to save the planet

We could restrict the weight of a vehicle to 1.000 pounds, I guess.
 

WillyPete

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Scam seem harsh. These cars do allow for the possibility of reduced emissions, if their the electricity comes from low emission sources.

Also, it makes them flexible, as now the source can be anything a power plant can run on. These cars run on nuclear, natural gas, solar, or wind just as readily as coal.

Obviously more efficient power plants are more important than what type of cars we're driving.

Maybe we're going about it backwards, but why the hate?
 

MrT

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Moving a 4000 lb vehicle down the road requires a certain amount of energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Likewise, building the vehicle and dealing with it after its useful life has ended requires energy. If that energy comes from carbon fuel burning plants then it's no different in terms of emissions than a vehicle that burns its fuel on board. The idea that electric cars have zero emissions is false. More than false, really, a lie. Because Elon Musk knows better, but he still depends on the falsehood of zero emissions to make sales.

Don't be fooled - Elon Musk's electric cars aren't about to save the planet

The crux of this argument depends on the fact that much of the energy used to produce these electric cars comes from coal power plants. As such, when energy production shifts from coal power plants, there can be no question that electric vehicles will also provide for some much needed CO2 emissions reduction on the back end.

The article does not support the notion that electric cars are a scam - it merely supports the notion that our primary focus, as a country and as a world, should be on shifting the modes of energy production at our power plants.
 

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Battery powered electric cars suffer from some real limitations of battery technology,
and energy density.
Battery Comparison of Energy Density - Cylindrical and Prismatic Cells
Looking at their chart the best batteries are below 200 Wh/kg
Gasoline carries about 8800 Wh/kg, so even if the Carnot efficiency
of the engine is only 20%, gasoline still carries a useful 1760 Wh/kg,
or eight times greater the energy density.
This is an improvement, gasoline used to be 10 times greater!
That said, electrical propulsion, is head and shoulders above driving the wheels
with the IC engine and transmission.
Hybrid ships and trains have been around for decades.
If a company develops a series hybrid, (like ships and trains), it could be a game changer.
I think Volvo was working on one.
4 hub motors, with a small fixed speed engine, and a small battery to absorb the starts and stops.
 

ludin

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Battery powered electric cars suffer from some real limitations of battery technology,
and energy density.
Battery Comparison of Energy Density - Cylindrical and Prismatic Cells
Looking at their chart the best batteries are below 200 Wh/kg
Gasoline carries about 8800 Wh/kg, so even if the Carnot efficiency
of the engine is only 20%, gasoline still carries a useful 1760 Wh/kg,
or eight times greater the energy density.
This is an improvement, gasoline used to be 10 times greater!
That said, electrical propulsion, is head and shoulders above driving the wheels
with the IC engine and transmission.
Hybrid ships and trains have been around for decades.
If a company develops a series hybrid, (like ships and trains), it could be a game changer.
I think Volvo was working on one.
4 hub motors, with a small fixed speed engine, and a small battery to absorb the starts and stops.

honestly I like the idea of what chevy did with the volt.
honestly a electric generator car would run way better than a solid electric car with out as much waste.

similar to how ships operate. they have a battery system that is fueled by a generator.
in this case all you would need is a small 4 cycle motor that puts out enough power that keeps the batter charged.

it only kicks in when the batter gets to a certain point and the batter never drains lower than what it would take to
start the car.

so if you need a 10% charge to start the car and generator then the battery will never go below 10%.
the generator running will self charge the battery.

any gasses given off can be recycled back through to help charge the battery.

I think it would be more efficient system than what we have now.
chevy had a good idea but poorly executed like always.
 

longview

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honestly I like the idea of what chevy did with the volt.
honestly a electric generator car would run way better than a solid electric car with out as much waste.

similar to how ships operate. they have a battery system that is fueled by a generator.
in this case all you would need is a small 4 cycle motor that puts out enough power that keeps the batter charged.

it only kicks in when the batter gets to a certain point and the batter never drains lower than what it would take to
start the car.

so if you need a 10% charge to start the car and generator then the battery will never go below 10%.
the generator running will self charge the battery.

any gasses given off can be recycled back through to help charge the battery.

I think it would be more efficient system than what we have now.
chevy had a good idea but poorly executed like always.
There are real efficiencies to be had with a fixed speed IC engine.
Such a car would not have a transmission, and the engine could be very small.
I think the volt is still a parallel hybrid.
 
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ludin

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There are real efficiencies to be had with a fixed speed IC engine.
Such a car would not have a transmission, and the engine could be very small.

I see no need for a transmission. that is just more expensive parts to repair. I know I just had to replace one.
all you need is a computer mechanism to ensure that all the wheel motors are spinning at the correct speeds.

of course they do this now in factories.
all pushing the pedal does is make the car go faster.

you put a 10-15 gallon tank on the thing and you could probably run the car for a month or more.
while it is at home you could simply charge the car's battery saving fuel as well.
 

X Factor

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Scam seem harsh. These cars do allow for the possibility of reduced emissions, if their the electricity comes from low emission sources.

Also, it makes them flexible, as now the source can be anything a power plant can run on. These cars run on nuclear, natural gas, solar, or wind just as readily as coal.

Obviously more efficient power plants are more important than what type of cars we're driving.

Maybe we're going about it backwards, but why the hate?

Some electric car proponents are kinda smug assholes about it, seemingly wanting to make them mandatory. By the same token, I have zero problem with electric cars. I know someone who has a high end Tesla and it really is pretty nice. Having it serviced is a bit of a nightmare but if these vehicles become more common and popular, it'll get easier and more convenient - it always does.

As long as it's about competition it's all good. Besides, it would mean more gas and oil for me. :D
 

bubbabgone

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Moving a 4000 lb vehicle down the road requires a certain amount of energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Likewise, building the vehicle and dealing with it after its useful life has ended requires energy. If that energy comes from carbon fuel burning plants then it's no different in terms of emissions than a vehicle that burns its fuel on board. The idea that electric cars have zero emissions is false. More than false, really, a lie. Because Elon Musk knows better, but he still depends on the falsehood of zero emissions to make sales.

Don't be fooled - Elon Musk's electric cars aren't about to save the planet

I had just read that Lomborg piece and was thinking of posting it but now neither I, nor anyone else, has to ... you might say you're a green poster.
But anyway, Lomborg's point really applies to the entire green auto industry.

But to further demonstrate how the whole thing depends on the easily influenced, just the other day I saw where Bill Nye, the crazy guy, was screaming that the media wasn't confronting the Presidential candidates about climate change.
Then lo and behold, yesterday there was some badass Bronx screwball in a Yankee cap damning Cruz and screaming about having to deal with climate change every day. Poor dear.
 

WillyPete

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Some electric car proponents are kinda smug assholes about it, seemingly wanting to make them mandatory. By the same token, I have zero problem with electric cars. I know someone who has a high end Tesla and it really is pretty nice. Having it serviced is a bit of a nightmare but if these vehicles become more common and popular, it'll get easier and more convenient - it always does.

As long as it's about competition it's all good. Besides, it would mean more gas and oil for me. :D

:lol: It's true, but you don't have to spend too many hours on SoCal freeways (my 2nd home) to discover smug assholes drive all sorts of vehicles.

Just save some of that oil for the plastic medical equipment they're going to need to keep me alive past 70!

Maybe we can hope that the buzz generated over this release will help to spur the upgrades we need to our power plants.

Whether they realize it or not, the electric vehicle crowd is in opposition to the old school hippies' anti-nuclear positions. I think we're way overdue to begin switching to thorium reactors.
 

X Factor

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:lol: It's true, but you don't have to spend too many hours on SoCal freeways (my 2nd home) to discover smug assholes drive all sorts of vehicles.

Just save some of that oil for the plastic medical equipment they're going to need to keep me alive past 70!

Maybe we can hope that the buzz generated over this release will help to spur the upgrades we need to our power plants.

Whether they realize it or not, the electric vehicle crowd is in opposition to the old school hippies' anti-nuclear positions. I think we're way overdue to begin switching to thorium reactors.

To some, you wanting to live past 70 makes you a smug and selfish asshole. :D It's funny how things change. My mom tells me that back in the day groceries were put in paper sacks, then that became uncool because think of the trees. Now paper bags are the environmentally sound choice and plastic is evil.
 

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Not this crap again.

Yeah if you count the total life cycle of the batteries and ignore the total life cycle of gasoline, the numbers don't look so good.

Add in the extraction, refinement, transportation, and sale of the gasoline and get back to me.

They also decided that Model S drivers drive substantially less than the national average of ~13k miles per year. For some reason.
 
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LowDown

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Scam seem harsh. These cars do allow for the possibility of reduced emissions, if their the electricity comes from low emission sources.

Also, it makes them flexible, as now the source can be anything a power plant can run on. These cars run on nuclear, natural gas, solar, or wind just as readily as coal.

Obviously more efficient power plants are more important than what type of cars we're driving.

Maybe we're going about it backwards, but why the hate?

Musk says that his cars reduce emissions. It has been the big selling point for those cars (although they are pretty cool). He doesn't say they reduce emissions only if you buy your electricity from a green source. If you plug your car into the grid then the power you draw from it is still 67% from carbon fuel plants and 20% from nuclear.

BTW, if you want maximum efficiency for your carbon emissions, from the birth to the death of the car, buy a hybrid. They have batteries, too, but they are tiny compared to the one in a Tesla.

Yes, a car that weighs a lot less is the most efficient of all, but I'm not getting in one of those things until they get those crazy people in SUVs and pickups off the roads.
 

WillyPete

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Musk says that his cars reduce emissions. It has been the big selling point for those cars (although they are pretty cool). He doesn't say they reduce emissions only if you buy your electricity from a green source. If you plug your car into the grid then the power you draw from it is still 67% from carbon fuel plants and 20% from nuclear.

They do produce reduced emissions compared to other types of cars. If your numbers are accurate, they'll produce reduced overall emissions than they would from a 100% carbon grid. Where's the lie?

It seems like you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
 

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Musk says that his cars reduce emissions. It has been the big selling point for those cars (although they are pretty cool). He doesn't say they reduce emissions only if you buy your electricity from a green source. If you plug your car into the grid then the power you draw from it is still 67% from carbon fuel plants and 20% from nuclear.

BTW, if you want maximum efficiency for your carbon emissions, from the birth to the death of the car, buy a hybrid. They have batteries, too, but they are tiny compared to the one in a Tesla.

Yes, a car that weighs a lot less is the most efficient of all, but I'm not getting in one of those things until they get those crazy people in SUVs and pickups off the roads.

The numbers in the OP article are bad. Electric cars are better than gas.

Electric cars reduce emissions even if the source is a coal plant, because the electric motor is more efficient than an internal combustion engine.
 

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"Electric Cars A Scam" :lamo

...Compare this with the diesel-powered, but similarly performing, Audi A7....

Talk about being scammed...

....While Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche vehicles with larger 3.0-liter V-6 diesel engines were not affected initially, they were subsequently investigated and found to include "defeat device" software as well.

Those include TDI versions of the Audi A6, A7, A8, Q5, and Q7; the Porsche Cayenne Diesel; and the Volkswagen Touareg TDI.
VW diesel emissions scandal: what you need to know in 10 questions (updated)

Audi had initially denied that the 3.0-liter diesel engines, offered in a number of models in North America, contained any kind of software that acted as a "defeat device," but had nevertheless halted sales of new and used models that feature that engine. The affected models include the A6, A7, A8, A8L, Q5 and Q7 models from the 2009 through the 2016 model year, along with the Porsche Cayenne Diesel and the Volkswagen Touareg TDI.

Read more: Audi 3-liter TDI emissions fix

:lamo
 

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This was discussed on Skeptic's Guide a couple months back. The manufacture and disposal of batteries seems to be an insignificant factor. Whether or not it is worthwhile depends on where the electricity is coming from. In some places the electric car is superior and in others it is inferior. Depends on the nature of the power plant providing the electricity.
 

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If a manufacturer can compete and can sell a electric car without the massive consumer and Govt subsidies that Musk receives then more power to them.

Otherwise electric cars are just a expensive status symbol and a inferior technology
 

Fenton

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"Electric Cars A Scam" :lamo



Talk about being scammed...





:lamo

I love a nice Audi and Volkswagen makes a quality product.

The left thought the Feds witchunt was going to shut them down.

But then again Obama thought he could rebuild the economy via Green jobs.
 
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