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El Salvador’s President Says He Won’t Return Man Who Was Mistakenly Deported (1 Viewer)

jpn said:
Sigh. No, he wasn't. He was just living here, with permission, raising his family, minding his own business.
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It sure looks like he is an MS-13 member and was caught with other MS-13 gang members.
At least that is what the News report said.
 
NWRatCon said:
They've always hated the Constitution. The point of being MAGA is to destroy the Constitution. And the United States. Only fools think otherwise. MAGA is just a propaganda ploy, like Nazis calling their party "socialist". They're as anti-American as Putin, Xi, and ISIS.
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Unhinged nonsense.
 
Variant said:
It's amazing how some of our right wing friends now believe in criminal conviction without trial and due process.
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I've always marveled at this happening in other countries, and now its here.
 
longview said:
It sure looks like he is an MS-13 member and was caught with other MS-13 gang members.
At least that is what the News report said.
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Incorrect. The only evidence there is of this is via an informant, who claims Garcia was a member of the New York MS-13 chapter, except Garcia's never lived in New York.
 
longview said:
But the claim that he is a US citizen is not correct.
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Ok, not sure how many were saying he was a US citizen. But that doesn't change anything. You can't just deport legal immigrants to murder prisons without due process because you want to.
 
It is obvious what is really going on, and the world has seen this, often. First we go after the most vulnerable, easiest to justify: criminal aliens. Then expand that to all "illegal" aliens, regardless of criminal status (Garcia). Then change that to  aliens regardless of their status (Khalil, Ozturk). Then change the definition of "alien" to include citizens. What most people didn't expect is doing all these at once.
 
ElChupacabra said:
Incorrect. The only evidence there is of this is via an informant, who claims Garcia was a member of the New York MS-13 chapter, except Garcia's never lived in New York.
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According to the AP it was the local police in Maryland that accused him of being an MS-13 gang member.
He was also accused by local police in Maryland of being an MS-13 gang member.
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Upon reading more, it does appear he should not have been deported.
 
Another aspect is the illegally of the housing anyone at CECOT. Federal law and treaty prohibit it:

18 U.S. Code § 2340A - Torture​

(a)Offense.—
Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b)Jurisdiction.—There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1)the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2)the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
(c)Conspiracy.—
A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment​


Article 1
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions

Article 3
1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.


Just a reminder: "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding." Article VI, US Constitution.
 
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ElChupacabra said:
"Them" are the people who got him into this mess, which is the US government. Anyone with the slightest sense of "personal responsibility" who admitted it was their mistake would take it upon themselves to correct this egregious error.


It literally is since he is imprisoned without charge and has no idea how long he will be in prison. The president of his country called him a "terrorist" without Garcia being charged with anything as well.


Nice to see people being so flippant about this. Good lord.
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I admire your desire to save a single man from the CECOT prison. I can only wonder how much attention you would paying to this latest Cause Celebre if we were still stuck in Biden's failed immigration morass.
 
jpn said:
Garcia isn't a "bad guy," no matter how many times you repeat the lie.
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Of course he's not. You probably had neighborhood barbecues with his family when you lived next door to him in MD.
That's why you know him so well.
 
NWRatCon said:
Another aspect is the illegally of the housing anyone at CECOT. Federal law and treaty prohibit it:

18 U.S. Code § 2340A - Torture​

(a)Offense.—
Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b)Jurisdiction.—There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1)the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2)the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
(c)Conspiracy.—
A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment​


Article 1
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions

Article 3
1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.


Just a reminder: "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding." Article VI, US Constitution.
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I guess all of that warrants another lawsuit against the Trump Administration. It's a good thing Trump knows a lot of lawyers willing to defend his Executive Orders.
 
longview said:
It sure looks like he is an MS-13 member and was caught with other MS-13 gang members.
At least that is what the News report said.
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"The News report," and history, says that there was an allegation of gang association. Was there any evidence to that effect? Apparently not. So, you know, "hearsay."

Also, presumably the judge who granted him permission to live in the U.S. in 2019 took that into account.

So continuing to insist on the veracity of an unverified allegation that a judge did not find persuasive is suggestive of undue bias on your part. Don't you think?
 
longview said:
According to the AP it was the local police in Maryland that accused him of being an MS-13 gang member.

Upon reading more, it does appear he should not have been deported.
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Yes, and the Assistant Director of the DOJ, Erez Reuveni, was suspended by the Administration for admitting in court that Garcia should not have been sent to El Salvador. Trump also suspended Deputy Director, Office of Immigration Litigation, Civil Division at U.S. Department of Justice, August Flentje.

DOJ suspends lawyer for failing to ‘vigorously’ argue case of mistakenly deported man
She also noted Reuveni did not know why Abrego Garcia was held at El Salvador’s Terrorism Confinement Center.

“I don’t know. That information has not been given to me. I don’t know,” he said during a hearing.

“That silence is telling,” Xinis wrote in a scathing decision determining Abrego Garcia’s removal was “wholly unlawful.”

“As Defendants acknowledge, they had no legal authority to arrest him, no justification to detain him, and no grounds to send him to El Salvador — let alone deliver him into one of the most dangerous prisons in the Western Hemisphere,” she wrote, describing the Justice Department as “having confessed grievous error.”

“To avoid clear irreparable harm, and because equity and justice compels it, the Court grants the narrowest, daresay only, relief warranted: to order that Defendants return Abrego Garcia to the United States.”
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Trump learned as a child to be a bully and that has not changed.
 
Fletch said:
Unhinged nonsense.
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When you served in the military, did you think we should ally with the dictator Russia and Hungary and El Salvador instead of democracy and freedom? Did that ever cross your mind?
 
jaypatriot said:
Of course he's not. You probably had neighborhood barbecues with his family when you lived next door to him in MD.
That's why you know him so well.
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I'm open to any evidence to the contrary.
 
longview said:
Perhaps, he was not on that particular list, but he was engaging in illegal activity which would violate
any agreement he had with immigration.
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And the evidence of this is...?

See that's what Due Process is about, brining the "evidence" into the light of day.

WW
 
Ikari said:
He wasn't, he was a legal immigrant. We need to keep due process.
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In context...

He was an illegal alien from sometime in 2011 to 2019.

In 2019 he was denied aslyum by Judge Jones and a deportation hold was put in place. Which made him temporarily legal until such time as the Trump Administration processed him for deportation to a 3rd party country IAW 8 USC 1231. The Trump Administration never took that action.

So temporary legal.

WW
 
NolanVoyd said:
The constitution is not.
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I believe the president must not only adhere to the Constitution but must also decide what is the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Too bad you don't approve of some his more important decisions. If the people don't approve then they will have an opportunity to bring back the style of government that caused the Democrats to lose back in November.
And if the flailing Opposition does not approve of Trump's decisions, it can file lawsuits which they claim we could be in a "Constitutional Crisis" unless Trump ceases and desists in his actions.

Because the presidency of the United States entails great power, the decisions of individual presidents often have great significance, and often depend on careful ethical decision-making. Both Abraham Lincoln and Harry Truman made some of their most important decisions by a combination of utilitarian and Kantian principles. The Emancipation Proclamation, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the decision to help rebuild Europe with American funds, and the commitment to civil rights were among the most significant decisions in American history. Their impact is perhaps magnified because they can be seen as the careful application of ethics to human affairs. All presidents make important decisions; but the historical process of deciding which presidents achieved greatness and which did not perhaps relates to the extent to which these decisions can be seen in an ethical context.

Presidential Decision-Making: Utilitarianism vs Duty Ethics | Issue 64 | Philosophy Now

Michael Rockler compares two ethics of statemanship for two American presidents.
philosophynow.org philosophynow.org
 
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