• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Eisenhower Explains About General Lee (1957)

Jean-s said:
It is not good enough to attempt to dismiss an article because of how the author votes. I never heard Americans react this way in the past. You need to say what was wrong with the article and cite instances of inaccuracies with sources.
Click to expand...

I do not recall the Democrats author citing sources.
 
Robertinfremont said:
Caught in the lights does not mention why I come out as a Lincoln hater and why I like what Trump does so much.

Abe as the president gets excused all the time for his full scale invasion of VA. That was the true commencement of an actual war. Had Abe quit when he was defeated at Manassas, I could forgive him due to by that time, not 630,000 deaths but only a smaller number of deaths.

Abe ordered troops into VA to ... well kill the residents living there. Sure history says Abe figured he would kill them fast and they would quit. Sure, quit 4 years later. I count the deaths caused by Abe and those caused by Trump in a complete different way. Trump has not created a huge army to kill off Americans, Abe did.

Abes defenders act like the bloody battles at Manassas two times did not happen at all. Abe hurled thousands of men to die at the hands of Lee and those dead man did not fight over slaves, they fought because they were ordered to fight by Abe Lincoln.

The South Was Right, the Historians Are Wrong: Taking the Antislavery Origins of the Civil War Seriously

There were two separate and not connected issues. Issue 1 is secession. Secession clearly was over slavery. Secession did not mean the South was at war, it meant it did not trust the feds at all in the same way Democrats do not trust Trump and wage war against him and lie claiming it is Trump attacking them. Trump must defend the presidency.

Issue 2 is why Abe invaded VA. Were it about Sumter, one can at least think of a forgiveness had Abe commenced his war on that site. But he went after a distant state with the force of a madman.
Click to expand...

Politicians cannot usurp the authority of a country and expect the national government not to put up a fight.
 
Perotista said:
Okay, Lee went with his state whichever way it went. With loyalty to their home state as high as it was back then, if Ohio had went with the south, so too would have Grant. The Mexican-American War was a great training ground for all of those generals who fought in the Civil War.

You have to remember, prior to the civil war the U.S. standing army or active duty army was 12,000 men in 1840, which increased to 44,000 in 1847 the start of the Mexican-American war. The federal government still relied on state militia and volunteers. By 1850 the active duty army was back down to 11,000 and only 16,000 in 1860.

The federal government held little sway over the states back then. It wasn't this huge all powerful conglomeration that it is today. I suppose I don't understand the hate spewed forth towards those who participated in the a war 160 years ago. That wasn't there 20 years ago. Perhaps it has to do with our polarized society we live in today. Also the refusal to place events and happenings of history in their proper context of the times they occurred.

It's pretty simple with Lee, he was more loyal to his home state of Virginia as most folks were more loyal to their home state back then than to the U.S. government or the nation. And yes, Lee knew he was fighting for the CSA, but that was the side chosen by his home state. One also should remember, Lee was in charge of the Army of Virginia, not the CSA army.
Click to expand...

Excellent analysis. We need much more analysis such as the above. I can agree with the above easily.
 
Jean-s said:
Politicians cannot usurp the authority of a country and expect the national government not to put up a fight.
Click to expand...

People do it right now, in front of you in the media and in cities managed by Democrats. Democrats are again up to their tricks of making wars.
 
Robertinfremont said:
More from historians.
Lincoln said
We have just carried an election on principles fairly stated to the people. Now we are told in advance, the government must be broken up, unless we surrender to those we have beaten, before we take the offices…f we surrender, it is the end of [the Republican Party] and of the government. They will repeat the experiment upon us ad libitum. A year will not pass, till we shall have to take Cuba as a condition upon which they will stay in the Union.

Many historians have concluded that if the North was not motivated by any substantial antislavery convictions, then the Civil War cannot be justified morally. Why fight a war the purpose of which was only to restore the Union if emancipation was only an accidental byproduct?

In his remarkable new book, Freedom National: The Destruction of Slavery in the United States, 1861-1865, James Oakes argues that the historians who deny the antislavery origins of the war are mistaken. He contends that from the outset, Republicans had slavery in their sights. Southerners understood that the antislavery threat to the South was real. Accordingly, secession was not an hysterical overreaction to Lincoln’s election but an understandable response to the fact that an antislavery majority in the North had elected an antislavery President.
The South Was Right, the Historians Are Wrong: Taking the Antislavery Origins of the Civil War Seriously
Click to expand...


I am not sure of the point you are making. I do believe there was anti-slavery sentiment in northern states. It was argued by abolitionists that slavery was morally wrong. Men of property in slave-owning states saw the writing on the wall and they mobilized their youth and militias to rebel against the USA. The facts are not disputed in the military academies and by scholars.
 
Robertinfremont said:
Jean S, frankly I do not know why but I gave you full credit as if you understood how the US government works in real life.

Trump was himself misled by China. Trump did not minimize a known risk, he did not know the actual risk. Do you right now understand the full risk? i doubt you do or you would not say about Trump what you say.

Other countries do not have our system. We have states. Write that down. The USA itself does not have the authority you speak as if it does.

Lights into their lungs? The man is no doctor and all he was trying to learn is about the disease so he asked doctors about his suggestions. Good presidents do that Jean S.

Governors lead states. That is why they get called Governors. i do not read you complaining about Gov. Cuomo who issued orders leading to the deaths of thousands of victims. Why is that Jean S?
Click to expand...

You write as if the USA is a Confederacy of sovereign states. That misconception was hit on the head by the civil war. The federal government won. The US president has almost dictatorial powers and there are federal departments of health and disease control. Donald Trump pushes his weight around on all sorts of issues but he was hands off with Covid-19.
 
Jean-s said:
The author is himself the source. He quoted statements by Lee. You did not say what he got wrong.
Click to expand...

My first instinct, what forms his opinions? Seeking help I examined his other articles. That and his hateful attack on Lee told me who he was and why he ran down Lee. I have been inside of the former Lee estate home and know it has no slave quarters there.

Why did you leap to approve the article? Because it talks the way you talk.
 
Robertinfremont said:
My first instinct, what forms his opinions? Seeking help I examined his other articles. That and his hateful attack on Lee told me who he was and why he ran down Lee. I have been inside of the former Lee estate home and know it has no slave quarters there.

Why did you leap to approve the article? Because it talks the way you talk.
Click to expand...
You appear to be saying that Robert Lee was not a slave owner because you did not see evidence of slave quarters at his estate. Historians see it differently.
 
Jean-s said:
You write as if the USA is a Confederacy of sovereign states. That misconception was hit on the head by the civil war. The federal government won. The US president has almost dictatorial powers and there are federal departments of health and disease control. Donald Trump pushes his weight around on all sorts of issues but he was hands off with Covid-19.
Click to expand...

It really is actually a group of sovereign states. Examine all of them. Each has a Governor (a president), each has the Supreme Court, each has police forces, each has an army. What more can a state need than that?
 
Jean-s said:
You appear to be saying that Robert Lee was not a slave owner because you did not see evidence of slave quarters at his estate. Historians see it differently.
Click to expand...

Such as who? I saw evidence that Washington owned slaves at his estate. I saw plenty more at Jefferson's estate. The slave quarters were built pretty well.
 
Robertinfremont said:
It really is actually a group of sovereign states. Examine all of them. Each has a Governor (a president), each has the Supreme Court, each has police forces, each has an army. What more can a state need than that?
Click to expand...

To be truly sovereign, a state cannot owe allegiance to another country. Each of the fifty states are under the higher authority of the USA. Sure there are local state governments but even their courts, which you mention, are subject to a federal court system and ultimately the Supreme Court of the USA.
 
Robertinfremont said:
Such as who? I saw evidence that Washington owned slaves at his estate. I saw plenty more at Jefferson's estate. The slave quarters were built pretty well.
Click to expand...

I would have to go find documentation that Robert Lee was a slave owner. That would take some time as I do not have that information at my fingertips.
 
Jean-s said:
You appear to be saying that Robert Lee was not a slave owner because you did not see evidence of slave quarters at his estate. Historians see it differently.
Click to expand...

I was there around 2006 I believe and at the time saw the wonderful mansion but do not recall the slave quarters. But I did research today and they say there are two former slave quarters there built by Curtis Custis. The site is closed now due to massive remodeling.
 
Jean-s said:
I would have to go find documentation that Robert Lee was a slave owner. That would take some time as I do not have that information at my fingertips.
Click to expand...

Did you know Lee and his wife freed slaves?
 
Jean-s said:
There you go; to free slaves you must first claim ownership of them. I understand he was a cruel slave owner.
Click to expand...

I agree with what President Eisenhower said about Robert E Lee. Lee was more loved by the slaves than disliked.
 
Jean-s said:
Only nutcases. Timothy McVeigh was not the "people".
Click to expand...

Why would Tim McVeigh even pop into your mind?

If you recall what he was about, it was about the massive injustice inflicted on the Randy Weaver family by Bill Clinton as well as the massive injustice inflicted on the church in the area of Waco, TX by Clinton as well.
 
Robertinfremont said:
This is short. General Eisenhower/President Eisenhower says he has the 4 photos on his wall of this nation's most important men.

See who he names as Great.

I will confess. It is Robert E. Lee.

Democrats brag they liked Eisenhower. That is the biggest sack of horse poop on this planet. I was then a Democrat and we hated Eisenhower.

But Ike defended Robert E. Lee.

What about that?

Click to expand...


After the war, Robert E. Lee said the South needs to move on from Confederate romanticism and not build statues/monuments commemorating it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom