Egypt: Islamists hit Christian Churches.....

[MMC]

After torching a Franciscan school, Islamists paraded three nuns on the streets like "prisoners of war" before a Muslim woman offered them refuge. Two other women working at the school were sexually harassed and abused as they fought their way through a mob.

In the four days since security forces cleared two sit-in camps by supporters of Egypt's ousted president, Islamists have attacked dozens of Coptic churches along with homes and businesses owned by the Christian minority. The campaign of intimidation appears to be a warning to Christians outside Cairo to stand down from political activism.

Christians have long suffered from discrimination and violence in Muslim majority Egypt, where they make up 10 percent of the population of 90 million. Attacks increased after the Islamists rose to power in the wake of the 2011 Arab Spring uprising that drove Hosni Mubarak from power, emboldening extremists. But Christians have come further under fire since President Mohammed Morsi was ousted on July 3, sparking a wave of Islamist anger led by Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood.

Nearly 40 churches have been looted and torched, while 23 others have been attacked and heavily damaged since Wednesday, when chaos erupted after Egypt's military-backed interim administration moved in to clear two camps packed with protesters calling for Morsi's reinstatement, killing scores of protesters and sparking deadly clashes nationwide.

The attacks served as a reminder that Islamists, while on the defensive in Cairo, maintain influence and the ability to stage violence in provincial strongholds with a large minority of Christians.....snip~

Egypt: Islamists hit Christian churches
Associated Press – 4 hrs ago <<<<< More here.

Like how the media states Islamists? It's the MB. What is everybody afraid to call them out for what they are.

Now who was sticking up for the MB in the US that are politicians? After reading this article, you may be able to discern that this so-called Democratic Election that took place and put the MB in power. Was rigged.....and by guess who. Thas Right.....the Muslim Brotherhood.

Note that part on how the attacks all increased under Morsi. Anyone else think Egypt is ready for a Democracy?

Do you think Obama will say anything with his stuttering ass, about anything the MB is doing? If not Obama.....then who? Who should be out there telling it like it is.....not like we want it to be.

 

[ttwtt78640]

After torching a Franciscan school, Islamists paraded three nuns on the streets like "prisoners of war" before a Muslim woman offered them refuge. Two other women working at the school were sexually harassed and abused as they fought their way through a mob.

In the four days since security forces cleared two sit-in camps by supporters of Egypt's ousted president, Islamists have attacked dozens of Coptic churches along with homes and businesses owned by the Christian minority. The campaign of intimidation appears to be a warning to Christians outside Cairo to stand down from political activism.

Christians have long suffered from discrimination and violence in Muslim majority Egypt, where they make up 10 percent of the population of 90 million. Attacks increased after the Islamists rose to power in the wake of the 2011 Arab Spring uprising that drove Hosni Mubarak from power, emboldening extremists. But Christians have come further under fire since President Mohammed Morsi was ousted on July 3, sparking a wave of Islamist anger led by Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood.

Nearly 40 churches have been looted and torched, while 23 others have been attacked and heavily damaged since Wednesday, when chaos erupted after Egypt's military-backed interim administration moved in to clear two camps packed with protesters calling for Morsi's reinstatement, killing scores of protesters and sparking deadly clashes nationwide.

The attacks served as a reminder that Islamists, while on the defensive in Cairo, maintain influence and the ability to stage violence in provincial strongholds with a large minority of Christians.....snip~

Egypt: Islamists hit Christian churches
Associated Press – 4 hrs ago <<<<< More here.

Like how the media states Islamists? It's the MB. What is everybody afraid to call them out for what they are.

Now who was sticking up for the MB in the US that are politicians? After reading this article, you may be able to discern that this so-called Democratic Election that took place and put the MB in power. Was rigged.....and by guess who. Thas Right.....the Muslim Brotherhood.

Note that part on how the attacks all increased under Morsi. Anyone else think Egypt is ready for a Democracy?

Do you think Obama will say anything with his stuttering ass, about anything the MB is doing? If not Obama.....then who? Who should be out there telling it like it is.....not like we want it to be.

Egypt, it seems, will either have mob (MB?) rule (what was briefly called a democracy) or military rule (via a puppet "civilian" head of state). The US, reagrdless of whether it is Obama or congress critters making the call, will continue to support (bribe?) whoever is labeled "the gov't" in Egypt to keep Israel from being overrun and to keep the oil trade from being seriously disrupted.

The official US line is sending a very mixed message, cancelling token joint military exercises to appear to distance ourselves from showing "public support" for the Egyptian military (now ruling Egypt, by killing the opposition "leaders") and yet still funding (bribing?) them with over $1 billion per year in "make nice" money. In other words say this, but do that, diplomacy. Diplomacy is, after all, the art of saying nice doggy until you can find a really big rock.

 

[German guy]

The US wanted democracy in Egypt, but it turned out that the democratically elected gov of the Muslim Brotherhood was not really willing to play by democratic rules. That's why the US toppled that government via the Egypt military, which is in the US pockets (to be exact, 82% in the pockets of the US -- as 82% of the military's budget consists of US military "aid").

My guess is the the US government hopes that once the military has restored order and pushed back the MB, some kind of democracy can emerge. But if that's not possible, the US will rather take another secular, anti-islamist military dictatorship over islamist rule.

So what exactly are people complaining about, when it comes to Obama? When his government allows democracy, they attack him for "supporting islamism", as the MB won the election. When his government topples the islamists, they attack him for "destroying democracy". Seems he can't do right, no matter what he does.

 

[a351]

Do you think Obama will say anything with his stuttering ass, about anything the MB is doing? If not Obama.....then who? Who should be out there telling it like it is.....not like we want it to be.

To the Egyptian people let me say the cycle of violence and escalation needs to stop. We call on the Egyptian authorities to respect the universal rights of the people. We call on those who are protesting to do so peacefully and condemn the attacks that we've seen by protestors, including on churches.

We believe that the state of emergency should be lifted, that a process of national reconciliation should begin, that all parties needed to have a voice in Egypt's future, that the rights of women and religious minorities should be respected, and the commitments must be kept to pursue transparent reforms to the constitution and democratic elections of a parliament and a president.

CNN.com - Transcripts

 

[MMC]

CNN.com - Transcripts

Yeah.....that's Nice for the Camera.....anything specifically directed at the MB? Got a link on that?

 

[joG]

After torching a Franciscan school, .....
Now who was sticking up for the MB in the US that are politicians? After reading this article, you may be able to discern that this so-called Democratic Election that took place and put the MB in power. Was rigged.....and by guess who. Thas Right.....the Muslim Brotherhood.

Note that part on how the attacks all increased under Morsi. Anyone else think Egypt is ready for a Democracy?

Do you think Obama will say anything with his stuttering ass, about anything the MB is doing? If not Obama.....then who? Who should be out there telling it like it is.....not like we want it to be.

I do not really see any news in the article. We knew from the start that the elections were defective. The MB was the only organized party with any name recognition in a largely illiterate population. We also knew they were relatively radical, disliked Israel and Christians and wanted a Sharia type state. All of this was in the newspapers.

But is it up to us to put out the fire? The Europeans, Africans and Arabs are neighbors. If they won't stand up for their block, why should the US spend its treasure? It has done that for decades and the others have lived as free riders of the semi secure world that the US paid for.

 

[MMC]

Egypt, it seems, will either have mob (MB?) rule (what was briefly called a democracy) or military rule (via a puppet "civilian" head of state). The US, reagrdless of whether it is Obama or congress critters making the call, will continue to support (bribe?) whoever is labeled "the gov't" in Egypt to keep Israel from being overrun and to keep the oil trade from being seriously disrupted.

The official US line is sending a very mixed message, cancelling token joint military exercises to appear to distance ourselves from showing "public support" for the Egyptian military (now ruling Egypt, by killing the opposition "leaders") and yet still funding (bribing?) them with over $1 billion per year in "make nice" money. In other words say this, but do that, diplomacy. Diplomacy is, after all, the art of saying nice doggy until you can find a really big rock.

Heya Ttwtt. :2wave: What is a our measly 1 billion compared to the 12 they are already getting from just 3 other Countries. With more to come? That would be Egypt? But you are correct on the mix message part.

 

[MMC]

I do not really see any news in the article. We knew from the start that the elections were defective. The MB was the only organized party with any name recognition in a largely illiterate population. We also knew they were relatively radical, disliked Israel and Christians and wanted a Sharia type state. All of this was in the newspapers.

But is it up to us to put out the fire? The Europeans, Africans and Arabs are neighbors. If they won't stand up for their block, why should the US spend its treasure? It has done that for decades and the others have lived as free riders of the semi secure world that the US paid for.

Heya Jog. :2wave: Well using intimidation and violence to suppress a party that was mixed with Christians. Just helps to give that much more insight with the MB. Since many were under the illusion that these guys were the good guys. All because they could fake at being moderate and talk about how they were for Democracy.

You wont get any argument out of me, as for our involvement. Other than the worst case scenario.

 

[a351]

Yeah.....that's Nice for the Camera

....anything specifically directed at the MB? Got a link on that?

You asked for remarks condemning the actions mentioned, you got it on a silver platter. Now you pretend the remarks were facetious and self serving. Can't make it up.

Who's attacking the churches? If the Brotherhood is responsible, his remarks were clearly implicit in nature. If varying parties were responsible, condemning the violent acts in general seems rather appropriate.

 

[MMC]

You asked for remarks condemning the actions mentioned, you got it on a silver platter. Now you pretend the remarks were facetious and self serving. Can't make it up.

Who's attacking the churches? If the Brotherhood is responsible, his remarks were clearly implicit in nature. If varying parties were responsible, why not simply condemn the acts of violence in general?

Well.....I already knew the putz gave a speech. Just like you did. So it was hardly a silver platter. Especially when you got it from TV land. Again you got something for him to identify strictly to the MB who is causing all this turmoil? Cuz saying Islamists or sympathizers just isn't the reality of situation. No matter how much you want to try and spin it.

So actually his remarks were not implicit as he generalized the remarks. Not going directly after who was responsible. Which is the MB, who has a name and an Organization. Who is also in several other countries.

But he specified the Egyptian Authorities, didn't he? See that's where the old adage comes into play. Whats good for the goose is good for the Gander.

Looks like all things that glitter isn't gold, or in your theory.....Silver.

 

[joG]

Heya Jog. Well using intimidation and violence to suppress a party that was mixed with Christians. Just helps to give that much more insight with the MB. Since many were under the illusion that these guys were the good guys. All because they could fake at being moderate and talk about how they were for Democracy.

You wont get any argument out of me, as for our involvement. Other than the worst case scenario.

There is always that possibility looming. Maybe we can avoid it, but we will have to make sure that everybody understands what we would consider worthy of the worst case solution and how bad that will be for whomever.
We certainly should not draw red lines, where we are not willing to act. The red line in Syria was arguably the worst thing any president could have done.

 

[MMC]

There is always that possibility looming. Maybe we can avoid it, but we will have to make sure that everybody understands what we would consider worthy of the worst case solution and how bad that will be for whomever.
We certainly should not draw red lines, where we are not willing to act. The red line in Syria was arguably the worst thing any president could have done.

Not that they could do much of anything with us.....so that's not the thought of it at all. Only message we need make. Is we wont let Israel stand alone. Nor for them to hold the World as hostage over the Suez Canal.

 

[joG]

Not that they could do much of anything with us.....so that's not the thought of it at all. Only message we need make. Is we wont let Israel stand alone. Nor for them to hold the World as hostage over the Suez Canal.

But, what would we do about it? Hit them with the bomb? Send the marines? Pray?

 

[a351]

Well.....I already knew the putz gave a speech. Just like you did. So it was hardly a silver platter. Especially when you got it from TV land. Again you got something for him to identify strictly to the MB who is causing all this turmoil? Cuz saying Islamists or sympathizers just isn't the reality of situation. No matter how much you want to try and spin it.

Did you really? Then why did your OP ask if Obama would remark on these types of attacks?

So actually his remarks were not implicit as he generalized the remarks. Not going directly after who was responsible. Which is the MB, who has a name and an Organization. Who is also in several other countries.

Condemning the attacks themselves is implicitly critiquing those who were directly responsible. Basic logic. Your assumption that the entirety of the protesters belong to the Brotherhood is ill founded by the way, as indicated by reporters on the ground and those with close ties to the situation.

But he specified the Egyptian Authorities, didn't he? See that's where the old adage comes into play. Whats good for the goose is good for the Gander.

Egyptian "Authorities" is a generalization as well, in case you didn't know. He could have specified the leader of the Military, the Egyptian police,or the Judicial system, all of which have been guilty of abuses in recent memory. You're flailing haplessly here.

 

[MMC]

Did you really? Then why did your OP ask if Obama would remark on these types of attacks?



Condemning the attacks themselves is implicitly critiquing those who were directly responsible. Basic logic. Your assumption that the entirety of the protesters belong to the Brotherhood is ill founded by the way, as indicated by reporters on the ground and those with close ties to the situation.



Egyptian "Authorities" is a generalization as well, in case you didn't know. He could have specified the leader of the Military, the Egyptian police,or the Judicial system, all of which have been guilty of abuses in recent memory. You're flailing haplessly here.

"Oh are you back for more", isn't that like Gandy :roll: I already told you.....I meant specifically to the MB. You're still not confused are you?

No, condemning the attacks is not calling out the MB. What don't you get about that. "What" do you know what it is to call someone out. Course the Egyptian Authorities does give a projection as to who. Where as those responsible of committing these acts. Does not.

Oh I am sure the Salafis have gone off too. But they aren't the one's that are ready to lead an uprising. Nor are they ones that are directing others to go out and commit such atrocities.

I am flailing about what? Get real.....got that link where YOUR MAN Obama specifically stated the MB, was talking directly to the MB? Until you got that. You flail before you even begin.

 

[MMC]

But, what would we do about it? Hit them with the bomb? Send the marines? Pray?

Worst case scenario???

See that little area called the Sinai.

That becomes a US Territory or we turn it into like a Vatican City. Tell the UN that's where they will be located from now on. Their headquarters. Drone bases, couple airfields, standing UN or US Military. Covers Israel's Back door. While also taking Control of the Suez. Puts them on the front line to experience what everyone else is living there.

Not much any could do about it.....in that worst case scenario.

 

[Medusa]

the result of supporting radical brothers

 

[joG]

Worst case scenario???

See that little area called the Sinai.

That becomes a US Territory or we turn it into like a Vatican City. Tell the UN that's where they will be located from now on. Their headquarters. Drone bases, couple airfields, standing UN or US Military. Covers Israel's Back door. While also taking Control of the Suez. Puts them on the front line to experience what everyone else is living there.

Not much any could do about it.....in that worst case scenario.

I hear it is a wonderful desert.

 

[MMC]

I hear it is a wonderful desert.

Currently.....lawless too. Which makes it all the better.

 

[joG]

Currently.....lawless too. Which makes it all the better.

Sounds like a desert to die for.

 

[MMC]

Well the MB struck back late yesterday or early this morning. Killing 25 off duty policemen that were on Buses. Dragged them out and killed them execution style. Course once again the MS Media wants to call them Militants now. When In fact it was the MB and those from Morsi's own clan. Shouldn't we be going after these Journalists and reporters for falsely reporting the facts of the story. They know it was the MB. There is no reason to lie or falsify information to the rest of the planet.

If anything they should be specifying who it is that is making these attacks. This way the MB cannot hide anywhere in the world.

They are tuff guys when nobody is fighting back. They like using the banger tactics. Until it starts coming back their way. They need to face the same thing they are putting out there. We should oblige then. Also letting every criminal element out there know. That it is Free Card Blanche when it comes to any in the MB. Leaving them no place to run and no place to hide. All the MB needs to be told is, Do or die punks.....make your stand. Prepare to meet whom you claim you would die to do so.

Egypt turmoil deepens; militants kill 25 policemen.....

Islamic militants on Monday ambushed two mini-buses carrying off-duty policemen in the northern region of Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, killing 25 of them execution-style in a brazen daylight attack that deepens the turmoil roiling the country and underscores the volatility of the strategic region.

Sinai, a strategic region bordering the Gaza Strip and Israel, has been witnessing almost daily attacks since Morsi's ouster — leading many to link the militants there to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist group from which Morsi hails.

In Monday's attack, the militants forced the two vehicles to stop, ordered the policemen out and forced them to lie on the ground before shooting them, the officials said. The policemen were in civilian clothes, said the officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media. There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attack, which also left two policemen wounded.

"They think they can end the movement," said Muslim Brotherhood senior member Saad Emara. "The more killings, the more people join us.".....snip~

Egypt turmoil deepens; militants kill 25 policemen


Now if you believe that one.....I got a bridge, its Right down the street where this delusional putz Saad Emara lives. He must have forgot all those pics of Egyptian Civilians going after the MB. Even beating them with sticks and brooms. Then the news reports about the MB in Libya and Syria having trouble. Plus the Saud coming out and condemning the MB as Terrorists.

 

[Nynaeve Meara]

Worst case scenario???

See that little area called the Sinai.

That becomes a US Territory or we turn it into like a Vatican City. Tell the UN that's where they will be located from now on. Their headquarters. Drone bases, couple airfields, standing UN or US Military. Covers Israel's Back door. While also taking Control of the Suez. Puts them on the front line to experience what everyone else is living there.

Not much any could do about it.....in that worst case scenario.

How about we just stay out of the area completely? All we've done is mess it up since the beginning starting with Mubarak.

 

[MMC]

How about we just stay out of the area completely? All we've done is mess it up since the beginning starting with Mubarak.

Hiya NM. :2wave: Note that part that says worst case scenario as in last resort.

Moreover.....one can't say it was messed up with Mubarak. As with the Reagan Administration, it was due to his ME Policy and what he did with Egypt. That allowed us to Win the Cold War against Russia.

Btw Welcome to the Forums of Debate Politics.

 

[Nynaeve Meara]

Hiya NM. :2wave: Note that part that says worst case scenario as in last resort.

Moreover.....one can't say it was messed up with Mubarak. As with the Reagan Administration, it was due to his ME Policy and what he did with Egypt. That allowed us to Win the Cold War against Russia.

Btw Welcome to the Forums of Debate Politics.

Hello MMC.

It was incredibly messed up with Mubarak, after all we are the ones who helped finance him into position of power. He shouldn't have been President after Sadat's assassination. At least not according to the Egyptian constitution at the time. So, yes I'll say it was our mistake to put him in power as all he did was take the 252B/yr we gave him to do virtually nothing but horde it and harm the local populace. Even after this was brought to our attention HW Bush(iirc) we just sent him more money and ignored the complaints.

I'm of a different opinion about the Cold War so I'll leave that one alone as it doesn't pertain to Egypt.

 

[MMC]

Hello MMC.

It was incredibly messed up with Mubarak, after all we are the ones who helped finance him into position of power. He shouldn't have been President after Sadat's assassination. At least not according to the Egyptian constitution at the time. So, yes I'll say it was our mistake to put him in power as all he did was take the 252B/yr we gave him to do virtually nothing but horde it and harm the local populace. Even after this was brought to our attention HW Bush(iirc) we just sent him more money and ignored the complaints.

I'm of a different opinion about the Cold War so I'll leave that one alone as it doesn't pertain to Egypt.

Well.....here is how World History takes a look at it.

Four events were decisive.
1. The Reagan administration cemented Egypt, the largest and most important Arab country, into the U.S. alliance system.
2. Reagan oversaw the weakening of the Soviet’s strongest Arab ally, Iraq.
3. Middle East events forced the Soviet Union toward an (ultimately doomed) reconstruction of its economy.
4. Then the final shove: In 1985, the Reagan administration persuaded Saudi Arabia to increase oil production.

Between 1985 and 1986, Saudi Arabia increased oil production from two million barrels a day to five million barrels. The oil price tumbled as oil supply surged: from US$30 a barrel to US$20 in just a few months.

The effect on the Soviet economy was devastating. Oil was the Soviet Union’s main – practically only – exportable product, the most important source of hard currency for the economically stagnant regime.

As former Soviet prime minister Yegor Gaidar details in a 2006 book, the Saudi action cost the Soviet Union $20 billion a year, money that had been used to pay for food imports from the West. How to close the sudden financial gap? The Soviets borrowed from Western banks.

As the Soviet economy stalled, borrowing needs increased. By 1989, the Soviet Union needed US$100-billion to avoid food shortages. That desperate need for Western loans precluded any Soviet intervention when first Poland and then the rest of the Warsaw Pact shook off Soviet rule in the spring, summer and fall of 1989.

The Reagan administration’s Middle East policy broke the Soviet empire. But no political achievement lasts forever. The price of oil has soared again, re-empowering Russia and other bad actors like Venezuela and Iran.

The Reagan policy has run its course, as all policies do. But no statesman is expected to solve the problems of all time. The 40th President of the United States magnificently surmounted the problems of his time. We honor Ronald Reagan most not by replicating him, but by emulating him: by doing not what he did, but as he did. He was the right leader for his time. Modern conservatives need to discover the right leadership for their time.....snip~

How Reagan’s Mideast Policy Won the Cold War