• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Edward Snowden gives countries a chance to thumb nose at US

RDS

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
5,398
Reaction score
1,323
Location
Singapore
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
When you point a finger at someone there are three fingers pointing back at you. What right has the US government to prosecute someone for disclosing information about the government's human rights violations.
The US and the Obama administration in particular are quick to emphasize the importance they give to the human rights of the citizens of the countries they are dealing with. Needless to say, however, those countries don’t always take well to American lesson-giving.
With the case of Mr. Snowden – a former National Security Agency contractor who leaked details of top-secret American and British surveillance programs and who is now sought by the US on espionage charges – those countries have a chance to turn the tables on the US.
Edward Snowden gives countries a chance to thumb nose at US - CSMonitor.com
 

Spartacus FPV

Better You = Better World
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
14,870
Reaction score
7,126
Location
Your Echochamber
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
When you point a finger at someone there are three fingers pointing back at you. What right has the US government to prosecute someone for disclosing information about the government's human rights violations. Edward Snowden gives countries a chance to thumb nose at US - CSMonitor.com
The Government doesn't have rights, it has powers. Punishing whistle blowers is within its powers, regardless of how corrupt and shameful it is. To me this is like a murderer punishing a snitch, because he can and has every incentive to do so. Make an example of him so no one else points out your crimes.

Given his recent disappearance, I assume they've already got him with a black bag over his head. I hope not though, I for one applaud whistle blowers and want more of them. It saddens me when I read the web article comments of my "countrymen" calling for his summary execution, mocking the idea of privacy.
 

RDS

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
5,398
Reaction score
1,323
Location
Singapore
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The Government doesn't have rights, it has powers. Punishing whistle blowers is within its powers, regardless of how corrupt and shameful it is. To me this is like a murderer punishing a snitch, because he can and has every incentive to do so. Make an example of him so no one else points out your crimes.

Given his recent disappearance, I assume they've already got him with a black bag over his head. I hope not though, I for one applaud whistle blowers and want more of them. It saddens me when I read the web article comments of my "countrymen" calling for his summary execution, mocking the idea of privacy.
Be it rights or powers such disclosures are protected under the rights to information and freedom of expression.
 

wbcoleman

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
1,833
Reaction score
431
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
The Government doesn't have rights, it has powers. Punishing whistle blowers is within its powers, regardless of how corrupt and shameful it is. To me this is like a murderer punishing a snitch, because he can and has every incentive to do so. Make an example of him so no one else points out your crimes.

Given his recent disappearance, I assume they've already got him with a black bag over his head. I hope not though, I for one applaud whistle blowers and want more of them. It saddens me when I read the web article comments of my "countrymen" calling for his summary execution, mocking the idea of privacy.
Snowden is not a whistleblower.
 

Spartacus FPV

Better You = Better World
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
14,870
Reaction score
7,126
Location
Your Echochamber
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Snowden is not a whistleblower.
Riiight, and the moon isn't orbiting us! :roll: Care to explain that bizarre misunderstanding?

Google the word whistleblower and see if his story isn't the top entry on "News for Whistleblower" among every other search result other than the wiki for the word.
 

wbcoleman

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
1,833
Reaction score
431
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Riiight, and the moon isn't orbiting us! :roll: Care to explain that bizarre misunderstanding?

Google the word whistleblower and see if his story isn't the top entry on "News for Whistleblower" among every other search result other than the wiki for the word.
Espionage does not equal whistleblowing. Hey, how do you feel about your guy taking those hard drives to Moscow?
 

Spartacus FPV

Better You = Better World
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
14,870
Reaction score
7,126
Location
Your Echochamber
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Espionage does not equal whistleblowing.
Nor are the two mutually exclusive. His being accused of espionage does not negate the whistleblowing that he did in his interviews.

Hey, how do you feel about your guy taking those hard drives to Moscow?
I don't care.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,374
Reaction score
27,502
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Espionage does not equal whistleblowing. Hey, how do you feel about your guy taking those hard drives to Moscow?
Revealing government misdoings to the public is not espionage.

If you found out the government was torturing little children in dark rooms, would you make it public? Or would you keep your mouth shut like a coward?

Here's the definition of espionage:

es·pi·o·nage
[es-pee-uh-nahzh, -nij, es-pee-uh-nahzh] Show IPA
noun
1.
the act or practice of spying.
2.
the use of spies by a government to discover the military and political secrets of other nations.
3.
the use of spies by a corporation or the like to acquire the plans, technical knowledge, etc., of a competitor: industrial espionage.
Exposing that your government is violating the constitution for zero benefit of your own can not be espionage.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,374
Reaction score
27,502
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I also think there are two very interesting points to be learned from this:

- The government has made a great deal of effort to focus the media's attention on Snowden himself, and not about the things he actually uncovered.

- Despite the patriot act, PRISM, and many other anti-liberty programs and legislation, the US government still can't find ONE man who's been traveling through public airports. We're giving up freedoms, privacy, and due process and yet our government is still completely incompetent at finding ANYBODY?
 

mak2

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
12,050
Reaction score
5,716
Location
Indiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I would happily expose it. But I would no go to Russia or Cuba to do it. The guy is a POS. Not a whistle blower.
Revealing government misdoings to the public is not espionage.

If you found out the government was torturing little children in dark rooms, would you make it public? Or would you keep your mouth shut like a coward?

Here's the definition of espionage:



Exposing that your government is violating the constitution for zero benefit of your own can not be espionage.
 

RDS

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
5,398
Reaction score
1,323
Location
Singapore
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
China sealed it all.

"In a sense, the United States has gone from a 'model of human rights' to 'an eavesdropper on personal privacy', the 'manipulator' of the centralized power over the international Internet, and the mad 'invader' of other countries' networks," said the overseas edition of China's People's Daily, which can reflect the government's thinking.

"The world will remember Edward Snowden," the newspaper said. "It was his fearlessness that tore off Washington's sanctimonious mask."
China and U.S. war over Snowden, but no lasting damage seen | Reuters
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,374
Reaction score
27,502
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I would happily expose it. But I would no go to Russia or Cuba to do it. The guy is a POS. Not a whistle blower.
You would happily submit yourself to years of torture without trial? I doubt it.

They kept Bradley Manning in solitary for years now, for a while naked, often being ****ed with. If your definition of being a POS is someone who avoids permanent confinement and torture, then I guess I'm a POS too.
 

mak2

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
12,050
Reaction score
5,716
Location
Indiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
BS. if it is something I felt strongly enough to betray my country over, such as torturing children for no reason, then yes, I would not run. Manning deserves what he gets, and I seriously doubt those are his living conditions.
You would happily submit yourself to years of torture without trial? I doubt it.

They kept Bradley Manning in solitary for years now, for a while naked, often being ****ed with. If your definition of being a POS is someone who avoids permanent confinement and torture, then I guess I'm a POS too.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,374
Reaction score
27,502
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
BS. if it is something I felt strongly enough to betray my country over, such as torturing children for no reason, then yes, I would not run. Manning deserves what he gets, and I seriously doubt those are his living conditions.
Those were his exact conditions. He was treated extremely inhumanely and held for years without trial.

Extreme Solitary Confinement: What Did Bradley Manning Experience? - The Daily Beast
After Manning’s arrest on May 29, 2010, he was transferred to a Marine brig in Quantico, Virginia, where, during his nine-month stay, he was reportedly held in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day, forced to sleep naked without pillows and sheets on his bed, and restricted from physical recreation or access to television or newspapers even during his one daily hour of freedom from his cell, all under the pretense that the private was a suicide risk. Manning’s treatment while in prison sparked as intense a public outcry as his arrest itself—drawing comparisons to the conditions of suspected terrorists at Guantánamo Bay.

Craig Haney, a psychology professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz, who specializes in the psychological effects of imprisonment, said he could think of no other word to describe Manning’s treatment in detention than “inhumane.”
Ok, so you've exposed wrong doings. What the hell does it change for you to stay there and get tortured by your government, or run and possibly have a chance at a meager life?

I think you're completely full of ****. You'd try to cover your ass just as he did. Calling him a POS for leaking is one thing. Calling him a POS for trying to save his own ass afterwards is a complete different story. You'd have to have no self-preserving bone in your body to subject yourself to the fate waiting for him if and when he's caught.
 

Helix

Administrator
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
69,721
Reaction score
51,839
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
He's a whistleblower, and if he gives or has given sensitive info to other governments, he becomes a spy, as well. but fighting over terminology is pointless. The conversation that we should be having is :

This program exists because we insist on it. We expect the intelligence community to predict and prevent every attack. When an attack is successful, we ask why the dots weren't connected. This is how dots are connected. Are we willing to give up this much privacy in order to ensure that dots are connected?

My own answer to this is not really. A program like this needs a lot of oversight, including judicial. FISA is a kangaroo court; we need real oversight, not rubber stamps. The potential for abuse is just too great to allow constant, non-specific electronic surveillance.
 

thinkforyoursel

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,095
Reaction score
314
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Ed HONG KONG Snowden ....is a RAT ..plain and simple!!

It's just one more example of why no rational person want to be part of the fringe group supporting this ..RAT!!

Who would have thought ......the right wing party who ...like Pit Bulls...supported the same policies ran by bush ...suddenly did an about turn just because they don't like Obama?

When is enough ...enough??

These people with their hate for Obama ...feels running into the arms of American's enemies ......and adversories ...with Amereica's secrects ...is patriotic!!!

Who are you guys going to cuddle next .....the Iranians?
 

Guy Incognito

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
11,216
Reaction score
2,818
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian

Guy Incognito

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
11,216
Reaction score
2,818
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Invasion of privacy by government is just eavesdropping I guess.
If you think it is a human rights violation, please explain which international peremptory norms have been violated. When you inevitably fail to do this, retract your remark.
 
Last edited:

RDS

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
5,398
Reaction score
1,323
Location
Singapore
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
If you think it is a human rights violation, please explain which international peremptory norms have been violated. When you inevitably fail to do this, retract your remark.
LOL retract? I retract my foot.
 

minnie616

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,632
Reaction score
25,044
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
Those were his exact conditions. He was treated extremely inhumanely and held for years without trial.

...
In a super max security prisons the prisoner is confined to a private cell for 23 hours a day.
And yes if the prisoner is on sucide watch they do not have clothing, or bed liners either.
Just goggle super max security prisons and you will see that is the norm for any max security prisoner on sucide watch.
Keeping a super max secerity prisoner in a cell 23 a day without bed linens is not a violation of human rights.
 
Last edited:

Guy Incognito

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
11,216
Reaction score
2,818
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
LOL retract? I retract my foot.
If it's a human rights violation then you should readily be able to list the peremptory norm you are referring to. It's not a difficult question unless you are full of ****.

By refusing to do the honorable thing and retract your bull**** remark you have only shown yourself to be intellectually dishonest.
 

VanceMack

MSG Benavides TAB
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
73,878
Reaction score
31,082
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Ed HONG KONG Snowden ....is a RAT ..plain and simple!!

It's just one more example of why no rational person want to be part of the fringe group supporting this ..RAT!!

Who would have thought ......the right wing party who ...like Pit Bulls...supported the same policies ran by bush ...suddenly did an about turn just because they don't like Obama?

When is enough ...enough??

These people with their hate for Obama ...feels running into the arms of American's enemies ......and adversories ...with Amereica's secrects ...is patriotic!!!

Who are you guys going to cuddle next .....the Iranians?
Heh...how cute. Look at yourself. The left wing party that loved and embraced Brad Manning because they hated George Bush now call Snowden a 'rat' because his actions reflect poorly on Obama.

Funny how that works, isnt it...
 

RDS

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
5,398
Reaction score
1,323
Location
Singapore
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
If it's a human rights violation then you should readily be able to list the peremptory norm you are referring to. It's not a difficult question unless you are full of ****.

By refusing to do the honorable thing and retract your bull**** remark you have only shown yourself to be intellectually dishonest.
Arm-twisting tactics don't work here.
 
Top Bottom