Edward Snowden, defector [W:139]

[solletica]

Update:

Bolivian leader's plane rerouted on Snowden fear.....

The plane carrying Bolivian President Evo Morales home from Russia was rerouted to Austria on Tuesday after France and Portugal refused to let it cross their airspace because of suspicions that NSA leaker Edward Snowden was on board, the country's foreign minister said.

Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca denied that Snowden was on the plane, which landed in Vienna, and said France and Portugal would have to explain why they canceled authorization for the plane.

"We don't know who invented this lie. We want to denounce to the international community this injustice with the plane of President Evo Morales," Choquehuanca said from Vienna, where the plane landed.

Morales said in an interview with Russia Today television that Bolivia would be willing to consider granting asylum to Snowden.

Snowden, who recently turned 30, withdrew a bid for asylum in Russia when he learned the terms Moscow had set out, according to Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov. Putin said on Monday that Russia was ready to shelter Snowden as long as he stopped leaking U.S. secrets.

At the same time, Putin said he had no plans to turn over Snowden to the United States.....snip~

Bolivian leader's plane rerouted on Snowden fear
Associated Press – 33 mins ago <<<<< More Here.


Looks Like Putin just gave us a finger.....the Middle One! :shock:

Nobody knows where on Earth Snowden is. Media reports at this point have zero credibility as no government that wants to shield him will tell the truth.

 

[MMC]

Nobody knows where on Earth Snowden is. Media reports at this point have zero credibility as no government that wants to shield him will tell the truth.

Heya Solletica.

More than likely he is still inside Russia.....IMO.

 

[DA60]

But what is known is that real heroes NEVER work for dishonorable institutions, even if they pay big $$.

Prove it.

 

[Geoist]

He did NOT expose anything, really, because all the stuff he accused the NSA of doing is already known by anyone who bothers to read international newspapers.

Yeah, many informed people already knew or suspected, but exposed this 'news' to a mostly uninformed American public. He has also given details that were not already confirmed/known.

He quit, but only after he spied on all of us, and did not apologize for his part in the spying. He just dishonestly casts himself as a hero for blowing the whistle on a malevolent organization, even though he was part of that organization.

I don't care about an official apology. What he is doing now is apology enough. I only care about waking America up to what our State is doing.

Do we let former Nazi officials off simply for condemning their past employer. No way. We punish them (after they've been proven guilty in court beyond a reasonable doubt), and rightfully so.

Omg, you are officially being silly by comparing Snowden to the Nazis. :roll:

It's good that he quit and that he condemns his former employer, but when a person does something wrong, even as part of an organization he/she she now rejects, he should be punished for it.

Maybe in your fantasy world. But in reality we live in a world where a president can call an airstrike upon an American citizen and not be overwhelmingly condemned and prosecuted for it. Going after a man who is trying to make up for his past actions is the least of my worries.

 

[solletica]

Yeah, many informed people already knew or suspected, but exposed this 'news' to a mostly uninformed American public. He has also given details that were not already confirmed/known.



I don't care about an official apology. What he is doing now is apology enough. I only care about waking America up to what our State is doing.




Omg, you are officially being silly by comparing Snowden to the Nazis. :roll:




Maybe in your fantasy world. But in reality we live in a world where a president can call an airstrike upon an American citizen and not be overwhelmingly condemned and prosecuted for it. Going after a man who is trying to make up for his past actions is the least of my worries.

If no one was willing to work for the NSA or any of the institutions within uncle sam's military industrial complex, there would be no such airstrikes on citizens.

Although the CINC and his minions are responsible for giving the orders, they would be powerless if people like Snowden didn't graciously accomodate them by offering their services. Simply put, the foot soldiers (including cyber-soldiers) are just as guilty as their commanders.

There are several people who dedicate their lives fighting for electronic privacy and who would never consider working for a corrupt institution like the NSA even though they have the skills to do so, and you want to call Snowden a "hero" ?

 

[solletica]

The idea that Snowden informed the dumbed down masses of the American public is ludicrous.

It's precisely because they're dumbed down masses that they couldn't deduce that the NSA would abuse its power, in spite of the government's claims that it wouldn't, and those same dumbed down idiots are still going to take the government's word over Snowden's, and they are. . .

In the end, Snowden did nothing--the people who believe him already knew the NSA was treasonous, and the ones who did not know (i. e. the dumbed down masses) believe the NSA is still just protecting Americans and not abusing its power.

 

[solletica]

Heya Solletica.

More than likely he is still inside Russia.....IMO.

How do you know that?

 

[solletica]

Prove it.

Heroes, by definition, don't sell out They may work for malevolent organizations for the purpose of infiltrating them, but never just for money. Snowden did the latter.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

The idea that Snowden informed the dumbed down masses of the American public is ludicrous.

It's precisely because they're dumbed down masses that they couldn't deduce that the NSA would abuse its power, in spite of the government's claims that it wouldn't, and those same dumbed down idiots are still going to take the government's word over Snowden's, and they are. . .

In the end, Snowden did nothing--the people who believe him already knew the NSA was treasonous, and the ones who did not know (i. e. the dumbed down masses) believe the NSA is still just protecting Americans and not abusing its power.

What's ludicrous is the idea that we - alone out of all the advanced nations of the world - don't keep a close eye on what's going on among our people, especially when we know that there are those among our own who would do us harm.

Before you blow your top, listen to a little story I have to tell. I was on the USS Abraham Lincoln, and three weeks before we were to deploy in the late summer of 2000, we got a call in my office. It was a foreign-sounding voice that said in so many words, "when you pull into port in the Middle East, we're going to bring a boat next to you and blow you up!" We ensured that all the chain of command (including the NCIS and the CIA) were notified, and we were ordered to not say anything to our families about it. We pulled in to Dubai - I think it was the last day or so of September - and we liaisoned with some SEAL's that had been sent there to keep an eye on things...but we who knew about the threat were still very nervous. Nothing happened, and we got underway. Four days after we got underway, the USS Cole was bombed in just the way we'd been told we'd be bombed.

I'm sure we knew within a day or so the phone number of whoever called, but if we'd had PRISM at that time, we'd have had not only that number within perhaps an hour or two, but we would have almost as quickly have known all the other phone numbers associated with that phone number. One of the planners of the attack on the Cole turned out to be one of the 9/11 hijackers. In other words, it's not a certainty, but there's still a significant chance that a program like PRISM could have stopped 9/11 - and all the insanity we went through in the ensuing decade - in its tracks.

Knowing all this as I do, I've got absolutely no problem with the government knowing my phone numbers, who I call and who calls me, and all the websites I visit. If there's a chance it'll stop another 9/11 - or even just another attack on my shipmates - that's fine with me.

 

[solletica]

What's ludicrous is the idea that we - alone out of all the advanced nations of the world - don't keep a close eye on what's going on among our people, especially when we know that there are those among our own who would do us harm.

Before you blow your top, listen to a little story I have to tell. I was on the USS Abraham Lincoln, and three weeks before we were to deploy in the late summer of 2000, we got a call in my office. It was a foreign-sounding voice that said in so many words, "when you pull into port in the Middle East, we're going to bring a boat next to you and blow you up!" We ensured that all the chain of command (including the NCIS and the CIA) were notified, and we were ordered to not say anything to our families about it. We pulled in to Dubai - I think it was the last day or so of September - and we liaisoned with some SEAL's that had been sent there to keep an eye on things...but we who knew about the threat were still very nervous. Nothing happened, and we got underway. Four days after we got underway, the USS Cole was bombed in just the way we'd been told we'd be bombed.

I'm sure we knew within a day or so the phone number of whoever called, but if we'd had PRISM at that time, we'd have had not only that number within perhaps an hour or two, but we would have almost as quickly have known all the other phone numbers associated with that phone number. One of the planners of the attack on the Cole turned out to be one of the 9/11 hijackers. In other words, it's not a certainty, but there's still a significant chance that a program like PRISM could have stopped 9/11 - and all the insanity we went through in the ensuing decade - in its tracks.

Knowing all this as I do, I've got absolutely no problem with the government knowing my phone numbers, who I call and who calls me, and all the websites I visit. If there's a chance it'll stop another 9/11 - or even just another attack on my shipmates - that's fine with me.

Yippee ki-yay.

 

[Spriggs05]

What makes you think Snowden is a fan of Russia's/Cuba's government policies?

I meant it as that he went to a place where human rights are not valued and then began preaching about free speech and privacy so.. :lol:

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Heroes, by definition, don't sell out They may work for malevolent organizations for the purpose of infiltrating them, but never just for money. Snowden did the latter.

That's one definition of "hero," even using your single argument - what about the person who works for an organisation thinking one thing of it and then discovering another before standing up to do something his conscience forces him to?

What's ludicrous is the idea that we - alone out of all the advanced nations of the world - don't keep a close eye on what's going on among our people, especially when we know that there are those among our own who would do us harm.

Before you blow your top, listen to a little story I have to tell. I was on the USS Abraham Lincoln, and three weeks before we were to deploy in the late summer of 2000, we got a call in my office. It was a foreign-sounding voice that said in so many words, "when you pull into port in the Middle East, we're going to bring a boat next to you and blow you up!" We ensured that all the chain of command (including the NCIS and the CIA) were notified, and we were ordered to not say anything to our families about it. We pulled in to Dubai - I think it was the last day or so of September - and we liaisoned with some SEAL's that had been sent there to keep an eye on things...but we who knew about the threat were still very nervous. Nothing happened, and we got underway. Four days after we got underway, the USS Cole was bombed in just the way we'd been told we'd be bombed.

I'm sure we knew within a day or so the phone number of whoever called, but if we'd had PRISM at that time, we'd have had not only that number within perhaps an hour or two, but we would have almost as quickly have known all the other phone numbers associated with that phone number. One of the planners of the attack on the Cole turned out to be one of the 9/11 hijackers. In other words, it's not a certainty, but there's still a significant chance that a program like PRISM could have stopped 9/11 - and all the insanity we went through in the ensuing decade - in its tracks.

Knowing all this as I do, I've got absolutely no problem with the government knowing my phone numbers, who I call and who calls me, and all the websites I visit. If there's a chance it'll stop another 9/11 - or even just another attack on my shipmates - that's fine with me.

If it was solely that your govt tracked and traced it's own that would be fine for me, it's when your govt tracks and traces allies and friends from overseas that causes another problem. "Friends" don't do this to each other - let alone bug friends' offices in your country.

 

[alexa]

Tempted to start a new thread on this.

Bolivian president's jet rerouted amid suspicions Edward Snowden on board

France and Portugal accused of refusing entry to their airspace, while plane lands in Vienna with no sign of Snowden

Bolivia reacted with fury after a plane carrying the country's president home from Russia was diverted to Vienna amid suspicions that it was carrying the surveillance whistleblower, Edward Snowden.

France and Portugal were accused of withdrawing permission for the plane, carrying the president, Evo Morales, from energy talks in Moscow, to pass through their airspace.

Officials in both Austria and Bolivia said Snowden was not on the plane. The Bolivian foreign minister, David Choquehuanca, said: "We don't know who invented this lie. We want to denounce to the international community this injustice with the plane of President Evo Morales."

In a midnight press conference, Bolivian vice-president Alvaro Garcia said Italy and Spain were also denying the plane permission to fly through their airspace. He described Morales as being "kidnapped by imperialism" in Europe.

-snip-

Choquehuanca said in a statement that after France and Portugal cancelled authorisation for the flight, Spain's government allowed the plane to be refuelled in its territory. From there the plane flew on to Vienna. He said the decision by France and Portugal "put at risk the life of the president".

Saavedra, who was on the flight, said: "This is a hostile act by the United States State Department which has used various European governments."

Bolivian president's jet rerouted amid suspicions Edward Snowden on board | World news | The Guardian

It makes all of Europe look like 'poodles' of the US. I am shocked. Mind you I guess not difficult to get people to do exactly what you want when you have information on them which you can blackmail them with.

I thought it was the Venezuela president who said on RT he would be happy to take Snowden home on the Plane with him but he also said Snowden had not asked for Asylum. For that presumably to turn into this is insane.

 

[alexa]

That's one definition of "hero," even using your single argument - what about the person who works for an organisation thinking one thing of it and then discovering another before standing up to do something his conscience forces him to?

Well said Infinite.

 

[ROBERT GOMEZ]

defector is to nice of a word,trader is more like it

 

[choiceone]

Yeah, many informed people already knew or suspected, but exposed this 'news' to a mostly uninformed American public. He has also given details that were not already confirmed/known.



I don't care about an official apology. What he is doing now is apology enough. I only care about waking America up to what our State is doing.




Omg, you are officially being silly by comparing Snowden to the Nazis. :roll:




Maybe in your fantasy world. But in reality we live in a world where a president can call an airstrike upon an American citizen and not be overwhelmingly condemned and prosecuted for it. Going after a man who is trying to make up for his past actions is the least of my worries.

I agree that Snowden provided new information. The point is that, even if people in the government only access the content of some particular person's contacts after they have decided that there is some special reason to do so and have gotten a warrant, they actually have the content in their possession. It isn't like they could get the content from some organization other than the government - they have content from various places in one place.

I can imagine some brilliant hacker getting a government position and being able to access any or all of the content without any warrant, illegally, and using it to commit all sorts of crimes against other people. Imagine what a small group could do if one of them had the ability to get such a position and hack into the content and move it to some offline system and analyze it. Imagine Dick Cheney or the Koch brothers having a group like that and getting at that content. Imagine some crooked politicians getting it.

It is dangerous to gather such information in one place. So it isn't just whether or not the government is accessing the content, but whether or not it has made it much easier for someone else to access that content and thereby created a situation dangerous for everyone's privacy.

 

[jschie]

"ask for asylum from any countries that believe in free speech and oppose the victimization of global privacy."

The German Government answered him: "No".
Publik polls in Germany say: 80-85% "Yes", 15-20% "No".

But last word isn´t spoken in Germany yet. The Opposition want´s to get him asylum, and CDU seems to loose votes within answering "No".

 

[alexa]

The German Government answered him: "No".
Publik polls in Germany say: 80-85% "Yes", 15-20% "No".

But last word isn´t spoken in Germany yet. The Opposition want´s to get him asylum, and CDU seems to loose votes within answering "No".

and Jürgen Trittin illustrates how Germany can legally do this here http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/165184-edward-snowden-defector-3.html#post1062004940

Very interesting to hear there is so many in favour of granting him Asylum. Fingers crossed.

 

[DA60]

Heroes, by definition, don't sell out They may work for malevolent organizations for the purpose of infiltrating them, but never just for money. Snowden did the latter.

'he·ro [heer-oh] Show IPA
noun, plural he·roes; for 5 also he·ros.
1.
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.'

Hero | Define Hero at Dictionary.com


Funny, it doesn't say that 'by definition' in the dictionary.

Please find me a dictionary term that says a hero never makes a mistake along the way to becoming a hero - or your 'definition' means nothing...a fantasy of yours.


Btw - were any of the 'first responders' that died in the World Trade Center on 9/11 heroes?

 

[alexa]

Update on the Bolivan Presidents plane. He is only now being allowed to leave. Needless to say South American countries are not pleased.

France and Spain are now claiming they did not stop him using their airspace.

South American nations furious over diversion of Bolivian president's plane

 

[alexa]

He was apparently needing to refuel. That is why it is said the refusal to allow the landing posed a danger to the Bolivian President and everyone else on the plane's life.

Further Austria demanded they let them search his plane before they would let him leave and spent hours doing it.

Argentina and other South American countries are wanting a summit to discuss this.

Understandably they find it completely unacceptable.

 

[solletica]

Well said Infinite.

That wasn't the case here. Unless he lived in a barn his whole life, Snowden knew the NSA was a Constitution-violating organization. Everyone has known that for years. If people didn't know that, then no one would be using strong encryption, but they do.

 

[alexa]

That wasn't the case here. Unless he lived in a barn his whole life, Snowden knew the NSA was a Constitution-violating organization. Everyone has known that for years. If people didn't know that, then no one would be using strong encryption, but they do.

My daughter wouldn't know anything about anything of any sort unless I told her. She like most people here has little interest, or time for politics, so especially given that he did not even engage in higher education there is no reason to believe that he felt that NSA was a constituion breaking organisation. Besides of which while you are all allowing this to happen, that suggests what you said is not so or you are happy with this situation.

Your ideas on Snowden are your imagination and hence are missing the point, which is his revelations.

I understand one of those was the extent to which American citizens themselves were under surveillance.

If you are interested in your rights, I think it would aid them if you focused more on that.

 

[DA60]

That wasn't the case here. Unless he lived in a barn his whole life, Snowden knew the NSA was a Constitution-violating organization. Everyone has known that for years. If people didn't know that, then no one would be using strong encryption, but they do.

This is ridiculous.

You cannot know what he knew, so you cannot say that he knew anything.

And since you do not know what everyone thinks, then you cannot know what they think about ANYTHING unless they tell you.

Your penchant for inexactitude is borderline staggering.

 

[MMC]

How do you know that?

Due to this piece by Huff-Po and a few others.....all saying that the Russians say he is there.

MOSCOW, July 2 (Reuters) - Former U.S. spy agency contractor Edward Snowden has withdrawn a request for political asylum in Russia after President Vladimir Putin said he should stop "harming our American partners", the Kremlin said on Tuesday.

Putin's press secretary, Dmitry Peskov, confirmed Snowden was still in the transit area of Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport after flying in on June 23 from Hong Kong, and said he had not crossed through passport control onto Russian territory.

"Snowden is in the transit area of Sheremetyevo airport and has not crossed the Russian Federation's border (onto Russian soil)... Russia has never extradited anyone, is not extraditing anyone and will not extradite anyone," Peskov told reporters.....snip~


Edward Snowden, NSA Whistleblower, Drops Russia Asylum Request