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Economics and Morals II

anomaly

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Well I never got a reply to my previous question, but maybe in this new forum it will get answered. I was wondering why poor people in this country currently are voting AGAINST their economic interest by voting Republican. The people who vote this way seem to think their morals outway economics. This is just plain false. I've got news for ya: Politicians don't care at all about your morals. There will be no amendment against gay marriage, the religious right will never turn over Roe v. Wade, and evolution will never be outlawed in school. But, something that can happen, the government can help out the workers in this country. The easiest way to do this would be to stop tearing apart the New Deal, as Bush and crew are doing quite effectively. This deregulating business will allow business to grow. And when business grows, labor falls. While banning abortion is probably impossible, national healthcare is quite possible. Social security doesn't have to be destroyed. Schools don't have to keep losing money (as they are in my home state of Indiana). This can't be blamed on Bush obviously, but he represents the current pro-business cause. Another culprit is my new governor, Mitch Daniels. He has already started his anti-labor plicies by crippling labor unions (anyone living in Indiana knows what I'm talking about). So is it time to start acting in our own interests again? Can the poor please start voting in ways beneficial to them? Vote Democratic.
 

Defij

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anomaly said:
Well I never got a reply to my previous question, but maybe in this new forum it will get answered. I was wondering why poor people in this country currently are voting AGAINST their economic interest by voting Republican.
Okay, well first of all I believe that when we are talking about people in "poverty" we are mainly talking about people in urban areas who actually tend to vote Democrat. So I think your whole premise here is off base a little.

anomaly said:
The people who vote this way seem to think their morals outway economics. This is just plain false.I've got news for ya: Politicians don't care at all about your morals. There will be no amendment against gay marriage,
There doesn't need to be an amendment. It pretty obvious that the legal definition of marriage is and has always been between one man and one woman. If two men or two women want to come into a contractual agreement with one another (which is legally what a "marriage" is) then they can do as such under a "civil union".
anomaly said:
the religious right will never turn over Roe v. Wade
First off you are right. The "religious right" will never over turn any USSC ruling, only the Supreme Court itself can do that. Secondly the basic ruling of Roe v. Wade already HAS been overruled by the PlannedParenthood v. Casey case. But even that ruling should be overturned, but not for some, or by some "religious right wacko" but rather because it is unconstitutional.
anomaly said:
and evolution will never be outlawed in school.
And evolution should not be outlawed, but intelligent design should ALSO be taught, not the monopoly of one "religious" view over another. Because that's basically all a belief in "Evolution" is. It's a fundamentalist belief in spite of scientific evidence that points against the "theory" of Evolution.

anomaly said:
But, something that can happen, the government can help out the workers in this country. The easiest way to do this would be to stop tearing apart the New Deal, as Bush and crew are doing quite effectively. This deregulating business will allow business to grow. And when business grows, labor falls. While banning abortion is probably impossible, national healthcare is quite possible. Social security doesn't have to be destroyed. Schools don't have to keep losing money (as they are in my home state of Indiana). This can't be blamed on Bush obviously, but he represents the current pro-business cause. Another culprit is my new governor, Mitch Daniels. He has already started his anti-labor plicies by crippling labor unions (anyone living in Indiana knows what I'm talking about). So is it time to start acting in our own interests again? Can the poor please start voting in ways beneficial to them? Vote Democratic.
Well look. Here is my take. You want business to grow, which will ALSO help labor grow, because I don't see how you can not have an expansion in business and have it NOT generate new "jobs" i.e Labor, but if you want labor to grow, then don't stifle it! Don't tax it as much. Don't regulate it as much. Let competition level out the market, not government regulations. That will lead to more jobs, more money for ALL classes of people, and people being able to help themselves out of "poverty" not simply taking a governmental hand out which leads to nothing put MORE poverty (see the failed "war on poverty" for an example of this). People need a hand UP not a hand out. Individuals need to take personal responsibility for their OWN actions. That's what this great country was built and founded upon.
 
J

Jufarius87

also the majority of people are voting on their economic interests republican economics are better

outsouricing is happening at such as a fast pace thx in part to big unions (which is a democrat power base)
how can you possibly blame a corperation for leaving when an american worker wants an exponentially bigger salery w/ benefits than people in other companies

outsourcing is actually beneficially to the economy as well wall street stays healthy more money is available to do research and development creating jobs for those who are educated and the price of consumer goods drops considerably do you know how much more expensive stuff would be if everything had a made in america sticker on it?

why people (particularly big union) are complaining about republican economics is because the last uneducated jobs that earn a more than decent living are being shiped over sea's

if the liberal promise to get those jobs back by raising taxes on over sea's compainies and shipping was enforced shipping of goods would slow down (making us lose even more jobs in the shipping industry) and the price of goods would skyrocket hurting ALL american by gaining jobs back for about 1/2 million uneducated big union workers

now, with that logic who economics sound more appealing?
 
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Jufarius87

sorry small typo all american "would be hurt" by getting jobs for 12 million big union workers...
 

anomaly

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To start with, my premise is not off base. The people who I am talking about are the poor people, especially in the Great Plains, who do not benefit from Bush's tax cuts. Garden City, Kansas, is a city whre the majority of people are employed in slaughter houses, yet these people overwhelmingly vote Republican. And in the 2004 election, a majority of people voted for "moral" reasons i.e. voted Republican based on morals, not economics. Let's move to your nest interesting statement. You say "Intelligent Design" should be taught in schools in addition to evolution. This is wrong. Intelligent Design should be taught in a church where it belongs. And another thing, evolution IS supported by science ( talkorigins.org ). Next, higher taxes doesn't "stifle" labor. It stifles business. Labor unions operate smoothly under high taxes. I assume you are a supporter of trickle down economics. You seem to have faith that the market will make things right. What the market actually does is widen the gap between rich and poor. Trickle down economics work great if you make $200,000/yr. Consider that, while these great corporations are thriving under Bush, he hasn't created a single job (the only president since Hoover to have a net job loss). I am no expert in this area, but if you want to know where I'm coming from, I advise you to read One Market Under God or What's the Matter with Kansas, both by Thomas Frank.
 
J

Jufarius87

intelligent design is supported by science not proven therefore it should be taught as theory

morals and values also includes the fact that bush came across as a decent person in the election and kerry came across as a manipulative self contradicting liar

guess what i realize that the gap between the poor and the rich is getting larger those withan education will make it fianancially and those who dont continue on for college will have a hard time making it shame on them for not going into military or college and trying to make something off themselves

republicans give just enough to welfare and medicaid so that people can live even if they are poor but not comfortably and ya know what that is all that we should and are required to do

obviously there will be rich and poor this is what tags people fianancially speaking as sucsessful or unsucsessful those who have made good with what they have shoukld have not have to coddle those who dont want to work or were to dumb to try and advance themselves by getting a higher education
 
J

Jufarius87

darn another typo im not in good form today "evolution" is supportd by science....
 

Defij

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Good replies you two. I don't want to go through and piece by piece respond to everything you two said. It's Saturday night, and that would take far too much time! I've got some other things I need to do, but I did want to make a few points.

First of all, evolution. Haha. Someone referenced talkorings.com. Yeah, like THAT'S not a bias site or anything.. ;) Why don't you check out the flip side and look at www.answersingenesis.org. You should also check out the GREAT book Darwin's Black Box. Superb reading, and if you are actually open minded, not grasping to the fundamentalist belief, or faith if you will, in macro evolution, you might actually see what a horrible "theory" it is. Totally unfounded and completely void of any empirical proof. Answer me this one question. In a laboratory setting, has ANYONE ever seen one species of animal turn into a completely different species of animal?

But I digress. This thread was about economics, not evolution. The next quick point I want to touch on is the "gap" between the poor and the rich. I hear Liberals and their crocodile tears all the time, crying about the "gap" between the rich and the poor...Spare me please. First of all, home ownership is at an all time high in this country. We have a HUGE middle class, the likes of which we have never seen! What most people today would consider "poor" is not very "poor" at all. Sure the "gap" may be growing, but you forget, the poor are also rising as well! Poor today would be at LEAST middle class by any standard of measure, say, oh 50 or 60 years ago. A "poor" family probably has a car, a TV, several other household appliances, an apartment, if not a home. And believe me, I know "poor". My wife grew up in Compton California. We still have family living there. Heck, we only live 20 minutes away from Compton ourselves! Do I deny that there is poverty in this country? Of course not. There is. But poverty in this country is due to the fact that the "war on poverty" has produced generation after generation of individuals who cling to the tit of governmental handouts. If you subsidize something, you get more of it. That's what we have done with poverty and illegitimacy. When you pay people NOT to work. When you pay people to HAVE more kids and not work, guess what?! You will have MORE people not working and more people bringing children into a lifestyle such as this to propitiate the poverty in this country! Welfare is supposed to be a safety net, to prevent people from falling too far, and help them get back on their feet. The way it is used today is as a means of income, not as the safety net is was intended for. Liberals tend to believe that the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer. That’s simply not so. We are ALL getting richer, the rate may be different, but all classes of people are attaining more wealth nowadays. If you are looking for an equal distribution of wealth, then you are looking for Communism or some kind of Sodalist economic system. I think it’s safe to say, they have been proven failures in society. Capitalism is by far the best economic system to date. I think this is the heart of the issue when it comes to liberals crying about poverty. Liberals are upset that some people who work hard attain a higher level of economic power, while others who don’t work as hard, obviously do not attain such a level. That is what a free market society is all about my friends.

I think I had some more to say, but I started ranting and so yeah, that's all I've got for now. Good night all!
 

ViperX83

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Defij said:
First of all, evolution. Haha. Someone referenced talkorings.com. Yeah, like THAT'S not a bias site or anything.. ;) Why don't you check out the flip side and look at www.answersingenesis.org. You should also check out the GREAT book Darwin's Black Box. Superb reading, and if you are actually open minded, not grasping to the fundamentalist belief, or faith if you will, in macro evolution, you might actually see what a horrible "theory" it is. Totally unfounded and completely void of any empirical proof. Answer me this one question. In a laboratory setting, has ANYONE ever seen one species of animal turn into a completely different species of animal?
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
 
J

Jufarius87

very good points indeed! poverty just isnt what it used to be eh? lets face it to an extent it is liberal propaganda the demo crats see that the middle class is improving its quality of life and in an attempt to save itself calls this a
BAD thing by saying there is an increasing gap between rich in poor and as i said this is what welfare and medicaid are for those so called "rich" through taxes support the poor (i think right now we take care of to many poor needs because they live comfortably enough that they want to stay were they are and leech of the system)
 

anomaly

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Ah the wonders of the free market. I must confess that I am a huge fan of true capitalism i.e. you make as much money as you earn. But, sadly, that's not how it goes in the United States. Just as an example, pro athletes. Are they really worth those $18,000,000? I know that this vast overpayment is "our fault" since we watch the sports and their market grows, but one still must admit that this is a huge flaw in our "capitalist" system. You supporters of capitalism do not realize, I think, that in America our life chances are NOT equal. This fact is agreed upon by all sociologists. And if you want the government to stay out and not help the poor, then it must be the poor people's own fault that their poor. In my view, the concept of inheritance destroys the market philosophy, since this does not promote equal chance but rather does the opposite. And we see inheritance taking it's tollon modern America (just look at my favorite example: Paris Hilton). This simple fact that we don't all have equal life chances is the basis of my beef with American capitalism. You Republicans may want to look at your prized President to see another example of this: Did Bush really earn his way into Yale? Obviously no. I have absolutely no problem with a man like Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple computers. He earned his way to the top. I do have a problem with the possible genius out there who can't do well in school and in turn can't go to college because of lack of money.

Oh by the way, can some liberal PLEASE get in here and help me....it seems it's me versus 3 conservatives right now.
 
J

Jufarius87

professionals athletes are classic supply and demand america needs its sports and as long as there is buisness athletes will keep getting big bucks no stopping that nor should we

what are you saying that were should just conficate property and distribute even evenly thats not equality of oppurtunity thats equality of condition

yea everyone should have equal oppurtunity the government makes the playing field even intially it is the rich parents who give inheritence who change the game and, seriously you cant blame someone for being born into a sucsessful family

all i know is that everyone if this country has the oppurtnity to work hard and advance themselves.... more than can be said about the rest of the world
 

mixedmedia

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anomaly said:
Oh by the way, can some liberal PLEASE get in here and help me....it seems it's me versus 3 conservatives right now.
Hey, anomaly, I'll jump in and give you a hand.

Someone said that poverty was a urban problem. Wrong!

From the Joint Center for Poverty Research:
In a three-year average of poverty rates from 1999-2001, the five poorest states were New Mexico (18.8%), Louisiana (17.5%), Mississippi (16.8%), Arkansas (16.3%), and the District of Columbia (16.1%).

Not one a state with a major urban center. DC being a possible exception, but not really. It is an urban center, but not on par w/ our largest American metropolitan areas. (Funny, being the 5th poorest community in America, that they got stiffed by the Bush administration on the pornographic display of wealthy, right-wing buffoonery displayed during the recent inaugural "festivities," but I digress.)

The reason that the poor have gone against their best interests to vote Republican is simple: They don't know any better and most of the poor in the South, where poverty IS greatest, are backwards & poorly educated. And they distrust what they perceive as intellectualism (aka, liberalism) in the Democratic party. And they are PROUD to be ignorant. Many of them have lived in poverty for generations & feel no great compulsion to get out of it. They voted for George Bush because he talked about the issues that matter to them: gay marriage & abortion. IGNORANT to the fact that the Republican party looks at them as serfs or, at the most, insignificant, poorly paid laborers who make it easy for their corporations to GAIN from their low-paying jobs & need to purchase their household needs cheaply from their neighborhood "company store" Wal-Mart.

You can tell them that the Bush administration doesn't care a whit for them or whether they manage to get out of the poverty that has hampered their ability to move upward and they say, "So what! Nobody has EVER cared about us." And they would have a point there. What they don't understand is that the voodoo & trickle down economic theories of the republican party only stand to make their situations & their children's situations even more bleak.

I am poor and I live in the South and I know from whence I speak.

Poverty is on the rise again. It has been documented by the census bureau. Go there and check it out if you don't believe me. Families losing their health insurance is on the rise as well.

Someone said that unions & their insistence on fair wages for workers is the reason for outsourcing. Let me see some data on that. Outsourcing is happening not because they can pay people in other countries a couple of dollars less, it is happening because they can pay them PENNIES on the dollar. What are Americans supposed to do? Work for a few dollars a day so that industry can continue make billions w/ the life's blood of its workers? How is this theory going to work for the average working American? The fact is it won't & shouldn't be allowed to happen. Everyone deserves a living wage, even folks in Mexico, China, Indonesia or Sri Lanka.

Government regulations of industry were put in place for real & compelling reasons. Industry will default on the side of profits when the choice is between money & workplace & environmental safety, fair wages, employee benefits, & fair labor practices. We know this, we learned this lesson already. Government regulation is why we have cleaner air today in Louisiana. It is why our communities have robins again & why moss is on our trees (for now at least; government restrictions on air pollution have already been rolled back). Government regulation is why we don't have sweat shops, why we have child labor laws. It is why employees are entitled to benefits. Do you really think that American industry is capable of regulating itself? Bullshit. It is not in the interest of capitalist enterprise to look for ways to SPEND money. Only to keep from spending it. Anyone who has ever worked for a major American corporation knows what I'm talking about.

There, hope that helps. I know how it feels to be a lonely voice amongst a crowd of hostility. I haven't contributed in a couple of weeks, but your plea touched my heart. I could not turn my back.
 
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Jufarius87

its ironic that u would site the southg as backwards when at one point it was one of the largest democratic power bases.....

republican are not the only rich people either the only senator that is not "rich" enough that he doesnt hire another to do his taxes is obama

i will also repeat myself as the top 1% pays 35% of the taxes how are the rich not doing their part?
(and the top 20% pay 80% of taxes)

you dont need a document saying that union are the reason for outsourcing it is just obvious when you look at economics and the viewpoint of a buisness owner can u blame someone who owns a buisness for wanting cheap labor? you really cnt now, granted the made in america still means alot to consumers but not enough so that its worth it to spend that much more money to pay for union worker than foriegn

lets also not forget that "poor" isnt what it used to be if u live in a good home if u can get medical treatment if u own a car or stockpile food then, u are not poor
 

mixedmedia

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Jufarius87 said:
its ironic that u would site the southg as backwards when at one point it was one of the largest democratic power bases.....
It was one of the largest for many years and many of those it was dominated by staunch segregationists. Times have changed the democratic party in the south. Just like the neo-cons and the religious right have changed the republican party.

Jufarius87 said:
republican are not the only rich people either the only senator that is not "rich" enough that he doesnt hire another to do his taxes is obama
I did not say that republicans are the only rich people.

Jufarius87 said:
i will also repeat myself as the top 1% pays 35% of the taxes how are the rich not doing their part? (and the top 20% pay 80% of taxes)
Your figures are way off. Here I have supplied them for you. I didn't amend them in any way. I copied them directly from the source.

My beef is that the Bush administration has the arrogance to purport to Americans that if you just give the rich MORE money to spend & invest, then it will trickle down to the "little folks" through their low-paying jobs. (And the republicans call democrats "elitists"!) How do you tell parents working their asses off at two jobs each just so they can manage to squeak by every month that the only way for things to get better is if they let the rich keep more of their money? It's a ridiculous plutocratic pipedream. And that is why republican politicians don't come out straight and say what they mean. Plutocracy might sound a little "old world-ish" to some people.

Bush Tax Cuts:
The Burden Decreased for All Groups
(More for some than others)

Total Effective Federal Tax Rate

2004 Rates Change Due to Bush Cuts

Lowest 20% 5.2% -1.5%

Second 20% 11.1% -2.1%

Middle 20% 14.6% -1.9%

Fourth 20% 18.5% -2.1%

Top 20% 23.8% -3.9%

Top 5% 25.6% -5.2%

Top 1% 26.7% -6.8%


Share of Federal Tax Burden
Lowest 20% 1.1% -0.1%

Second 20% 5.2% -0.2%

Middle 20% 10.5% +0.2%

Fourth 20% 19.5% +0.7%

Top 20% 63.5% -0.6%

Top 5% 35.9% -1.5%

Top 1% 20.1% -1.8%

Source: Congressional Budget Office, "Effective Federal Tax Rates Under Current Law , 2001 to 2014," Tables 2, 4.



Jufarius87 said:
you dont need a document saying that union are the reason for outsourcing it is just obvious when you look at economics and the viewpoint of a buisness owner can u blame someone who owns a buisness for wanting cheap labor? you really cnt now, granted the made in america still means alot to consumers but not enough so that its worth it to spend that much more money to pay for union worker than foriegn.
So what is your solution? Are we now to work for less money in America so that industry can make more billions? What about raising the standards around the world to meet ours instead of the other way around? Doesn't that just make good business sense? Are we just to close our eyes to the impact of capitalism-on-steroids on average Americans and at the same time take gross advantage of our less fortunate neighbors around the world? This is the best way?

Jufarius87 said:
lets also not forget that "poor" isnt what it used to be if u live in a good home if u can get medical treatment if u own a car or stockpile food then, u are not poor
Whatever that is supposed to mean. At least we're not living in shacks on dirt floors feeding our kids boiled potatoes every night for supper so we should be grateful? Gee, thanks, you compassionate conservatism warms the very cockles of my heart. Poor is what it is and it is what it was. Perceptions are variable, as well.
 

Pacridge

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mixedmedia said:
It was one of the largest for many years and many of those it was dominated by staunch segregationists. Times have changed the democratic party in the south. Just like the neo-cons and the religious right have changed the republican party.



I did not say that republicans are the only rich people.



Your figures are way off. Here I have supplied them for you. I didn't amend them in any way. I copied them directly from the source.

My beef is that the Bush administration has the arrogance to purport to Americans that if you just give the rich MORE money to spend & invest, then it will trickle down to the "little folks" through their low-paying jobs. (And the republicans call democrats "elitists"!) How do you tell parents working their asses off at two jobs each just so they can manage to squeak by every month that the only way for things to get better is if they let the rich keep more of their money? It's a ridiculous plutocratic pipedream. And that is why republican politicians don't come out straight and say what they mean. Plutocracy might sound a little "old world-ish" to some people.

Bush Tax Cuts:
The Burden Decreased for All Groups
(More for some than others)

Total Effective Federal Tax Rate

2004 Rates Change Due to Bush Cuts

Lowest 20% 5.2% -1.5%

Second 20% 11.1% -2.1%

Middle 20% 14.6% -1.9%

Fourth 20% 18.5% -2.1%

Top 20% 23.8% -3.9%

Top 5% 25.6% -5.2%

Top 1% 26.7% -6.8%


Share of Federal Tax Burden
Lowest 20% 1.1% -0.1%

Second 20% 5.2% -0.2%

Middle 20% 10.5% +0.2%

Fourth 20% 19.5% +0.7%

Top 20% 63.5% -0.6%

Top 5% 35.9% -1.5%

Top 1% 20.1% -1.8%

Source: Congressional Budget Office, "Effective Federal Tax Rates Under Current Law , 2001 to 2014," Tables 2, 4.





So what is your solution? Are we now to work for less money in America so that industry can make more billions? What about raising the standards around the world to meet ours instead of the other way around? Doesn't that just make good business sense? Are we just to close our eyes to the impact of capitalism-on-steroids on average Americans and at the same time take gross advantage of our less fortunate neighbors around the world? This is the best way?



Whatever that is supposed to mean. At least we're not living in shacks on dirt floors feeding our kids boiled potatoes every night for supper so we should be grateful? Gee, thanks, you compassionate conservatism warms the very cockles of my heart. Poor is what it is and it is what it was. Perceptions are variable, as well.
Nice job Mixed! Trying to make sense out of the fog that the GOP and the FNC have created regarding the shifting tax burden is difficult. They've made it appear that it's only fair that the rich pay less, you know because everyone pays less. But in reality the rich pay less and the the middle class and poor and end up paying more. I often wonder- when these people watch movies such as "John Grisham's The Rain Maker" or "Erin Brockovich" do they root for the the insurance or power company? Because obviously they must enjoy watching the little guy get screwed.
 
J

Jufarius87

interesting my figures were from the congressional budget report so something's askew........

eventually indians and chineise will realize how badly they are getting duped and they will do what we did they will go on strike and eventually come up to our standards capitalism and the supply/demand for labor will balence itself out

most who are poor today in america have a car a home medicaid and welfare they aint doing bad if u compare them to any other countries
 

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Jufarius87 said:
most who are poor today in america have a car a home medicaid and welfare they aint doing bad if u compare them to any other countries
Most? Huh, so these families living in their cars without health insurance make up a just a few of the poor in this country? Where are you getting your figures?
 

anomaly

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Mixed media, forgot to tell you, great writing. And you, a liberal in the south? What a trailblazer!
 

mixedmedia

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Pacridge said:
Nice job Mixed! Trying to make sense out of the fog that the GOP and the FNC have created regarding the shifting tax burden is difficult. They've made it appear that it's only fair that the rich pay less, you know because everyone pays less. But in reality the rich pay less and the the middle class and poor and end up paying more. I often wonder- when these people watch movies such as "John Grisham's The Rain Maker" or "Erin Brockovich" do they root for the the insurance or power company? Because obviously they must enjoy watching the little guy get screwed.
Thanks, Pac!

Yes, considering that the average American CEO makes 350-400 times more per year than your average middle-class American its amazing how the rich whine about their tax burden. Make that, some rich, not all. I know there are people in the 1 & 5% tax brackets who would gladly pay more if it were asked of them. Unfortunately these folks are a minority in their class.
As much pride is being slung around in this country about how great we are, it strikes me as odd how many people will then turn around & curse taxation. IMO, we should be proud to pay our taxes. Not to say that our money is always spent wisely, that's a entirely different ball of wax, but we should have a more positive, patriotic even, attitude towards paying our taxes.

I hope that they don't enjoy watching the little guy get screwed, seriously, that is just too depressing. But I do think there is a disconnect or apathy that goes on there.
 

mixedmedia

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anomaly said:
Mixed media, forgot to tell you, great writing. And you, a liberal in the south? What a trailblazer!
Thanks, anomaly! I'm not exactly a trailblazer, my path has pretty much been laid out for me by my parents. And as much as I whine about the south & its invasion from within by the backwards, ignorant & knee-jerk conservative block, there are more liberals here than most people in the US think. It is a quiet time for progressives in the south, though, 'cause frankly, we're a little scared of some of these people.
 

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mixedmedia said:
Thanks, anomaly! I'm not exactly a trailblazer, my path has pretty much been laid out for me by my parents. And as much as I whine about the south & its invasion from within by the backwards, ignorant & knee-jerk conservative block, there are more liberals here than most people in the US think. It is a quiet time for progressives in the south, though, 'cause frankly, we're a little scared of some of these people.
I know what you mean Mixed. Vague posted a graphics map that showed, red and blue, voting trends right after the election. It was very telling. I live out here in Oregon and were a very "liberal" state. However the area I live in is very rural and as such is very conservative.
 

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Jufarius87 said:
interesting my figures were from the congressional budget report so something's askew........

eventually indians and chineise will realize how badly they are getting duped and they will do what we did they will go on strike and eventually come up to our standards capitalism and the supply/demand for labor will balence itself out

most who are poor today in america have a car a home medicaid and welfare they aint doing bad if u compare them to any other countries
http://factcheck.org/article280.html

Here is the site, factcheck.org, I got the statistics from. Ironically from an article on one of John Kerry's misleading ads about taxes. I highly recommend this site for real information.

Trust that Indians & Chinese already realize it. But it does not behoove America, or the democracy, freedom & liberty that we stand for, to take advantage.

So, it's not that you outright disapprove of unions or labor regulations? Only in relation to their impact on outsourcing?

I think its time for America to have a little more vision when it comes to deciding how we want to be represented in the world.
 
J

Jufarius87

well, to be honest i have no statitisics i am not the first in this arguement to say this idea about the poor but, we do not live in a country were u can just find homeless people all over the place unless, of course you are in the city and statisticly cities are generally liberal so explain that

if one is poor in this country it is generally excepted that this means they are onmedicaid / welfare
 
J

Jufarius87

lol what many people dont realize is that the worst of the recession and job loss happened in the 1st year of the bush administration..... there is nothing an administration can do to cause then much damage entering office if anything it should be blamed on clinton

the fact of the matter is, is that clinton should only be credited with not overly interfereing with bill gates and the economic boom and job growth caused by the internet

he, also let jobs outsource the consequences to stoping outsourcing are worse than outsourcing itself it causes inflation and consumer goods to raise in price there by hurting the entire middle class instead of just a specific group of people
 
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