Easy answer to illegal immigration?

[Beaudreaux]

And who funds all that enforcement? Hint: the GOP-controlled Congress.

The funding was and still is there.

And he was wrong to do that. I've never tried to claim that everything "my guy" does is wonderful.

First time I've seen you say so, but I do give credit where it's due, which is this time.

I poke whichever animal needs the harder poking. (Which is usually the elephant, due to its thicker skull.)

That's a speciesist remark. How dare you!!!

 

[Glen Contrarian]

That is hardly true. Making their lives here impossible would do the trick. They cannot start make their own job if they cannot get insurance, drive, rent or buy property, get an ID card, send their kids to school, have a bank account, etc. Like you said, if their lives are miserable, they will pack up the family and find someplace better to live. No need to go door to door if they leave on their own.

You really have no clue about immigrants, do you? They will find a way around every single hardship you just listed - I know this because I've seen it myself. Not only that, but thanks to the laws of supply and demand - you know, that free-market altar before which all conservatives kneel and pray - when there is a need for illegal immigrants to do any of those, there will be those who can fill that need, one way or another.

Wanna drive them all out? Sure, you can do that if we send armed people from door to door in every town and city and metropolis, demanding "papers please" as brownshirts did in a certain nation about 70-odd years ago...but is that the kind of America you want? Is it really? Maybe it is, if you're the type who likes to cruise on over there to the Stormfront site.

So you've got a choice - you can either stick by America's tradition of being an immigrant nation from our very founding...or you can go the route of nativism...which we have seen too many times before tends not to end well.

It might also do you well to remember a certain poem on the Statue of Liberty, "The New Colossus":

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That, sir, is what has made America great - the renewing drive and determination of immigrants who keep our nation from stagnating. That, sir, is America. Love it or leave it.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

The funding was and still is there.

Is it enough? Is it more or less than what Obama wants? (The answers to these questions may not be identical.)

First time I've seen you say so, but I do give credit where it's due, which is this time.

No president ever has done, or ever will do the job perfectly. On balance, Obama has made significantly more good calls than bad ones.

That's a speciesist remark. How dare you!!!

I reserve the right to ask horses "Why the long face?" in my bar!

 

[clownboy]

You really have no clue about immigrants, do you? They will find a way around every single hardship you just listed - I know this because I've seen it myself. Not only that, but thanks to the laws of supply and demand - you know, that free-market altar before which all conservatives kneel and pray - when there is a need for illegal immigrants to do any of those, there will be those who can fill that need, one way or another.

Wanna drive them all out? Sure, you can do that if we send armed people from door to door in every town and city and metropolis, demanding "papers please" as brownshirts did in a certain nation about 70-odd years ago...but is that the kind of America you want? Is it really? Maybe it is, if you're the type who likes to cruise on over there to the Stormfront site.

So you've got a choice - you can either stick by America's tradition of being an immigrant nation from our very founding...or you can go the route of nativism...which we have seen too many times before tends not to end well.

It might also do you well to remember a certain poem on the Statue of Liberty, "The New Colossus":

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That, sir, is what has made America great - the renewing drive and determination of immigrants who keep our nation from stagnating. That, sir, is America. Love it or leave it.

ALL of this nonsense has been addressed and still you persist with it. First - these aren't immigrants we're talking about - they are illegal aliens. And no, when our economy takes a dip quite a few of them beat feet. Take away their ability to educate their children on our dime, take away their ability to find a home, have a bank account, get a phone, sign up for electric service, their ability to stay if they drop an anchor baby, and they will self-deport in droves.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

ALL of this nonsense has been addressed and still you persist with it. First - these aren't immigrants we're talking about - they are illegal aliens. And no, when our economy takes a dip quite a few of them beat feet. Take away their ability to educate their children on our dime, take away their ability to find a home, have a bank account, get a phone, sign up for electric service, their ability to stay if they drop an anchor baby, and they will self-deport in droves.

Plenty of them would stay despite all that, unfortunately. They work for almost nothing under almost any conditions because it's still better than where they came from.

Unbelievable but true.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Is it enough? Is it more or less than what Obama wants? (The answers to these questions may not be identical.)

Seriously? Obama isn't enforcing immigration laws and has issued EO's to leave illegals alone. How much money does it take to do nothing?

No president ever has done, or ever will do the job perfectly. On balance, Obama has made significantly more good calls than bad ones.

That would depend on the subject. In toto, no, he hasn't. On foreign relations? No he hasn't. Militarily? No, he hasn't. Racial harmony? No, he hasn't. Social issues? Yeah, that one he probably has on balance made more good choices than bad. Fiscally? No he hasn't. I could keep going, but...

I reserve the right to ask horses "Why the long face?" in my bar!

I bet you make them wear horseshoes as well, while hanging them on the wall upside down. What message does that send to the oppressed shoeless horses in pastures everywhere?

 

[DifferentDrummr]

Seriously? Obama isn't enforcing immigration laws and has issued EO's to leave illegals alone. How much money does it take to do nothing?

Seriously? NOBODY is being deported right now? Hard to believe; I'd love to see a link to substantiate it...

That would depend on the subject. In toto, no, he hasn't. On foreign relations? No he hasn't. Militarily? No, he hasn't. Racial harmony? No, he hasn't. Social issues? Yeah, that one he probably has on balance made more good choices than bad. Fiscally? No he hasn't. I could keep going, but...

You could, but I'd have to keep disagreeing. :shrug:

I bet you make them wear horseshoes as well, while hanging them on the wall upside down. What message does that send to the oppressed shoeless horses in pastures everywhere?

No horseshoes, no bit, no service.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Seriously? NOBODY is being deported right now? Hard to believe; I'd love to see a link to substantiate it...

Read the EO's. Those are the ones I'm referring to, and the ones we we're talking about. Turning people around at the border shouldn't count as deportations, but the Administration counts them.

You could, but I'd have to keep disagreeing. :shrug:

Yup, that's why I stopped... that and I have a bad headache.

No horseshoes, no bit, no service.

That's a bunch of horse****... literally. I would bet that many are galloping to get out of your bar. Someone needs to rein you in. Do you make them leave immediately or do you stall in your enforcement? (okay, I'm done)

 

[Glen Contrarian]

ALL of this nonsense has been addressed and still you persist with it. First - these aren't immigrants we're talking about - they are illegal aliens. And no, when our economy takes a dip quite a few of them beat feet. Take away their ability to educate their children on our dime, take away their ability to find a home, have a bank account, get a phone, sign up for electric service, their ability to stay if they drop an anchor baby, and they will self-deport in droves.

And you - like the previous guy - are living in a dreamworld. They would not "self-deport". If you knew the immigrant community (legal and illegal) half as well as I do, you'd know just how silly the notion of "self-deportation" really is. As I pointed out to the other guy, they'd find a way around each and every one of the hardships you listed...and that I've seen it myself. What's more - just like I pointed out to the other guy - there's something called "the law of supply and demand"...and when millions of illegals need a way to stay here, to live here, there will be people who will provide their needs...for a price.

That, sir, is reality. You don't have to like it...but you WILL have to live with it.

 

[gdgyva]

You really have no clue about immigrants, do you? They will find a way around every single hardship you just listed - I know this because I've seen it myself. Not only that, but thanks to the laws of supply and demand - you know, that free-market altar before which all conservatives kneel and pray - when there is a need for illegal immigrants to do any of those, there will be those who can fill that need, one way or another.

Wanna drive them all out? Sure, you can do that if we send armed people from door to door in every town and city and metropolis, demanding "papers please" as brownshirts did in a certain nation about 70-odd years ago...but is that the kind of America you want? Is it really? Maybe it is, if you're the type who likes to cruise on over there to the Stormfront site.

So you've got a choice - you can either stick by America's tradition of being an immigrant nation from our very founding...or you can go the route of nativism...which we have seen too many times before tends not to end well.

It might also do you well to remember a certain poem on the Statue of Liberty, "The New Colossus":

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That, sir, is what has made America great - the renewing drive and determination of immigrants who keep our nation from stagnating. That, sir, is America. Love it or leave it.

as others have noted, that poem was written in another time

when we were a younger nation in need of lots of new people to grow

and i would gather the vast majority here at DP are still for LEGAL immigration

what we cant afford anymore are 500k border crossers annually adding to the what 14-15 million here already

IF we were to go really hard on the employers, and use e-verify....and then really increase the fines it would be a good start

Then it is about all the services they do receive...from schooling for their children to everything else

Harsh....yes? But imo it is far past the time to get serious about fixing the problem

And you know that wage thing the people on the left keep harping about.....well, if we do this, wages will GO UP

Meat packing plants will be forced to pay american labor.....who wont do the job for $ 8 an hour

 

[jamesrage]

The Problem:
I am firmly for re-establishing how we regulate both legal and illegal immigration in our nation. I am a firm believer in protecting the resources as well as lands we have in our nation. We need to limit our population in order for this to be a reality. My children aren't going to be able to enjoy the same experiences that I did as a child if this growth continues...

The reason I pick on immigration to accomplish this task is because every statistic I have ever seen portrays the image that our nation's birth rates are stagnant, or even below 2. This means that without immigration our nation would UNDENIABLY have a declining population given an extended time frame.

The Answer:
I believe that illegal immigration has an extremely simple common-sense answer which is altogether avoided because of its apparent impact on wealthy business owners. This answer is to impose fines upon the people who are hiring the illegal immigrants, as opposed to the immigrants themselves. If the fine is high enough then even if the chances of getting caught are extremely low it will still not be a cost-effective practice to employ illegal laborers. Thus, it will not create a good business model and will be dropped as a practice. If it is not cost effective to hire illegal labor then there simply won't be any jobs in our nation for this demographic to occupy, and thus little to no reason to immigrate to here in the first place.

This would be very easy legislation to write, and would not require the formation of any new governmental agencies. I am also pretty confident that the general public would be overwhelmingly (~70%+) in favor of this legislation. The problem would obviously be the same one as usual, getting it through Congress... This does provide an answer for illegal immigration though, which leads me to believe that with the right spin that the Republican party could be swayed into this mindset by their supporters. I am unsure of how this would pass muster with left-leaning Americans though.

Myself:
I describe my political leanings as "other" but I will be actively voting against the Republican party in the foreseeable future due to my scientific background as well as their apparent motivators. I feel like it is important to emphasize this point so as others understand my personal biases.

1.Rare fines don't mean squat to companies.Because the money saved from hiring illegals far outweighs any fine that they might get should in the rare even they get caught.

2.People do not come here just for jobs,They also come for other benefits.

I think my solutions would be the cheapest and easiest to implement.

1.Crack down on the scum who hire illegals.Treat them no different than we do drug dealers and other criminals who profit from and or use their money for illegal activities. That means heavy fines and prison sentences and possible asset seizure and forfeiture upon a guilty conviction and permanently revoke their business licenses upon a guilty conviction.

2. In order to get any ID or driver's license you present a birth certificate( in rare cases a non-availability birth certificate where it has been investigated that the individual was born in the US), green card, or certificate of naturalization and social security card.After that require a state issued ID or driver's license in order to the following-

-enroll yourself into school
-enroll your minor kids into school
-apply for welfare,food stamps,section 8 housing and any other tax payer assistance for yourself and or your children
-get a business license,fishing/hunting permit,building permit, license to practice law, food handlers permit, gun license(in states that require a permit to buy a gun),concealed carry permit(in states that require a license to conceal carry) or any other tax payer funded service
-open a bank account, cash a check, use a credit/debit/pre-paid card, apply for a loan,or wire money.
-rent,borrow,lease or buy property
-rent,borrow,lease or buy a motor vehicle.
-get legal documents for yourself or your children.
-get utilities
​

3.Mandate E-verify for every employer.

4.Repeal part of the immigration and nationality act of 1965 that allows for the chain migration of relatives other than spouse or minor children.This would virtually eliminate anchor babies.

5.Seeing how many of these people here illegally came her on a visa and let it expire we should also cut off visas to citizens of countries we have the most illegal immigration problems with until those numbers go down.

 

[Mycroft]

The Problem:
I am firmly for re-establishing how we regulate both legal and illegal immigration in our nation. I am a firm believer in protecting the resources as well as lands we have in our nation. We need to limit our population in order for this to be a reality. My children aren't going to be able to enjoy the same experiences that I did as a child if this growth continues...

The reason I pick on immigration to accomplish this task is because every statistic I have ever seen portrays the image that our nation's birth rates are stagnant, or even below 2. This means that without immigration our nation would UNDENIABLY have a declining population given an extended time frame.

The Answer:
I believe that illegal immigration has an extremely simple common-sense answer which is altogether avoided because of its apparent impact on wealthy business owners. This answer is to impose fines upon the people who are hiring the illegal immigrants, as opposed to the immigrants themselves. If the fine is high enough then even if the chances of getting caught are extremely low it will still not be a cost-effective practice to employ illegal laborers. Thus, it will not create a good business model and will be dropped as a practice. If it is not cost effective to hire illegal labor then there simply won't be any jobs in our nation for this demographic to occupy, and thus little to no reason to immigrate to here in the first place.

This would be very easy legislation to write, and would not require the formation of any new governmental agencies. I am also pretty confident that the general public would be overwhelmingly (~70%+) in favor of this legislation. The problem would obviously be the same one as usual, getting it through Congress... This does provide an answer for illegal immigration though, which leads me to believe that with the right spin that the Republican party could be swayed into this mindset by their supporters. I am unsure of how this would pass muster with left-leaning Americans though.

Myself:
I describe my political leanings as "other" but I will be actively voting against the Republican party in the foreseeable future due to my scientific background as well as their apparent motivators. I feel like it is important to emphasize this point so as others understand my personal biases.

Will you be voting for Trump to be our next President?

The reason I ask is that that what you propose is a part of what he has proposed.

Nationwide e-verify. This simple measure will protect jobs for unemployed Americans.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform

I haven't seen anything even remotely comparable from Hillary.

 

[natsb]

You really have no clue about immigrants, do you? They will find a way around every single hardship you just listed - I know this because I've seen it myself. Not only that, but thanks to the laws of supply and demand - you know, that free-market altar before which all conservatives kneel and pray - when there is a need for illegal immigrants to do any of those, there will be those who can fill that need, one way or another.

Wanna drive them all out? Sure, you can do that if we send armed people from door to door in every town and city and metropolis, demanding "papers please" as brownshirts did in a certain nation about 70-odd years ago...but is that the kind of America you want? Is it really? Maybe it is, if you're the type who likes to cruise on over there to the Stormfront site.

So you've got a choice - you can either stick by America's tradition of being an immigrant nation from our very founding...or you can go the route of nativism...which we have seen too many times before tends not to end well.

It might also do you well to remember a certain poem on the Statue of Liberty, "The New Colossus":

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That, sir, is what has made America great - the renewing drive and determination of immigrants who keep our nation from stagnating. That, sir, is America. Love it or leave it.

Ah... I see the problem. You cannot discern between a legal and an illegal immigrant.

I am always happy to help. Lets start with immigrants. Yes, I have a clue about them. It is a bit odd you would make that claim. Especially given my first generation status. My parents arrived on Ellis Island with a trunk full of cloths and a few dollars hidden in their shoes. They worked very hard, made a lot of sacrifices, and raised five American children. They managed to do this without a penny of welfare, food stamps, or other Government largesse. I am very proud of them.

Now, there is a different group of people called illegal immigrants. These are people that broke the law to get here, and are breaking even more to stay. They are milking the Government teats for every possible penny, and taking away opportunities for real Americans. I am not proud of the illegals.

Hopefully you are open minded enough to see that the two groups are as different as oil and water, and cannot be lumped into the same hyperbolic blatherskite.

And again. There is no need to drive anybody out. Like you have already acknowledged, people will leave on their own when conditions are miserable enough.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Ah... I see the problem. You cannot discern between a legal and an illegal immigrant.

I am always happy to help. Lets start with immigrants. Yes, I have a clue about them. It is a bit odd you would make that claim. Especially given my first generation status. My parents arrived on Ellis Island with a trunk full of cloths and a few dollars hidden in their shoes. They worked very hard, made a lot of sacrifices, and raised five American children. They managed to do this without a penny of welfare, food stamps, or other Government largesse. I am very proud of them.

Now, there is a different group of people called illegal immigrants. These are people that broke the law to get here, and are breaking even more to stay. They are milking the Government teats for every possible penny, and taking away opportunities for real Americans. I am not proud of the illegals.

Hopefully you are open minded enough to see that the two groups are as different as oil and water, and cannot be lumped into the same hyperbolic blatherskite.

And again. There is no need to drive anybody out. Like you have already acknowledged, people will leave on their own when conditions are miserable enough.

Hmph. Idealist...meet reality. Educate yourself with this article from Forbes' (which has never been a friend to the Left): Illegal Immigrants Don't Lower Our Wages or Take Our Jobs:

Using data from Georgia, Julie Hotchkiss, Myriam Quispe-Agnoli, and Fernando Rios-Avila find that documented workers’ wages rise with increases in the share of undocumented workers in a worker’s county and employed by their employers. The biggest boosts are for workers in low- and medium-skill firms that hire a lot of undocumented immigrants with an even larger boost for workers in low-skill firms with a lot of undocumented workers in the county and industry.

Why? The law of comparative advantage says we get more productive when we have more trading partners, and the arrival of undocumented workers with limited English skills frees up low-skill American workers who can then specialize in tasks that require better English. In July, I had the honor of sharing the stage with Ann Coulter, and fellow Forbes contributor Rick Ungar on Fox Business’s Stossel show, and I got to explain how unskilled immigrants make us more productive at the end of the show.

If we were smart, we'd DOCUMENT them, allow them to apply for work visas, and allow them to start a (very lengthy and expensive) application for citizenship. But that's only if we were smart. Instead, we're stupid, and so we reject them and tell them what horrible people they are for coming to America when their reason for doing so is the same doggone reason all other immigrants came to America.

 

[Mycroft]

If we were smart, we'd DOCUMENT them, allow them to apply for work visas, and allow them to start a (very lengthy and expensive) application for citizenship. But that's only if we were smart. Instead, we're stupid, and so we reject them and tell them what horrible people they are for coming to America when their reason for doing so is the same doggone reason all other immigrants came to America.

That's pretty much already been tried...when Reagan made that lousy deal with his Democratic Congress. It didn't help.

Sure...it turned a slew of illegal people into legal people, but they got replaced by another slew of illegal people...and we have the same problems now that they had back then.

What do they call it when you do the same thing over and over...expecting different results? Yeah...that's right...insane.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

That's pretty much already been tried...when Reagan made that lousy deal with his Democratic Congress. It didn't help.

Sure...it turned a slew of illegal people into legal people, but they got replaced by another slew of illegal people...and we have the same problems now that they had back then.

What do they call it when you do the same thing over and over...expecting different results? Yeah...that's right...insane.

Wrong. The difference is that Reagan did not leave in place a system to document new ones so they could be tracked, and made to pay regular taxes like the rest of us.

So long as America's a more prosperous and much safer place to live than their home countries, the illegals will keep coming, regardless of how difficult we make it for them here. Ask yourself what choice you'd make, if given a choice of whether to live in America in a miserable situation (because the Right wants to make your life miserable to make you want to go home)...or to actually go back home where you and/or your family face very real threats to your lives.

Now maybe you yourself would claim, "I'd still go back home and fight for what's right"...but in the real world, that ain't gonna happen. You and/or your family would suffer the rather permanent consequences, for one. That's why the whole idea of "self-deportation" is such a perverse joke.

 

[Mycroft]

Wrong. The difference is that Reagan did not leave in place a system to document new ones so they could be tracked, and made to pay regular taxes like the rest of us.

So long as America's a more prosperous and much safer place to live than their home countries, the illegals will keep coming, regardless of how difficult we make it for them here. Ask yourself what choice you'd make, if given a choice of whether to live in America in a miserable situation (because the Right wants to make your life miserable to make you want to go home)...or to actually go back home where you and/or your family face very real threats to your lives.

Now maybe you yourself would claim, "I'd still go back home and fight for what's right"...but in the real world, that ain't gonna happen. You and/or your family would suffer the rather permanent consequences, for one. That's why the whole idea of "self-deportation" is such a perverse joke.

A system to document new ones?

So what you are talking about is unlimited immigration. Just show up, give your name and you are good to go...whether we want you or not? Oh...and we've got this great benefits package for you. Just ask for it.

Dude...that's worse than just giving them amnesty.

 

[natsb]

Hmph. Idealist...meet reality. Educate yourself with this article from Forbes' (which has never been a friend to the Left): Illegal Immigrants Don't Lower Our Wages or Take Our Jobs:

Using data from Georgia, Julie Hotchkiss, Myriam Quispe-Agnoli, and Fernando Rios-Avila find that documented workers’ wages rise with increases in the share of undocumented workers in a worker’s county and employed by their employers. The biggest boosts are for workers in low- and medium-skill firms that hire a lot of undocumented immigrants with an even larger boost for workers in low-skill firms with a lot of undocumented workers in the county and industry.

Why? The law of comparative advantage says we get more productive when we have more trading partners, and the arrival of undocumented workers with limited English skills frees up low-skill American workers who can then specialize in tasks that require better English. In July, I had the honor of sharing the stage with Ann Coulter, and fellow Forbes contributor Rick Ungar on Fox Business’s Stossel show, and I got to explain how unskilled immigrants make us more productive at the end of the show.

If we were smart, we'd DOCUMENT them, allow them to apply for work visas, and allow them to start a (very lengthy and expensive) application for citizenship. But that's only if we were smart. Instead, we're stupid, and so we reject them and tell them what horrible people they are for coming to America when their reason for doing so is the same doggone reason all other immigrants came to America.

No, if we were smart we would send them home and stop coddling them. You are still having a real difficult time telling the difference between a immigrant and an illegal alien.

I'll try again:

immigrant: Wants to be here for a better life. Wants to simulate. Honors our laws. Respects the country. Does the honorable thing.

illegal alien: Is just here to earn a buck. Has no plan to join the culture. Disobeys our laws. Disrespects our country. Doesn't have enough honor to follow the immigrant path.

Nobody has a problem with immigration, it is a welcomed activity. Those who come here should be treated accordingly. Immigrants are welcome, scofflaws are sent packing.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

No, if we were smart we would send them home and stop coddling them. You are still having a real difficult time telling the difference between a immigrant and an illegal alien.

I'll try again:

immigrant: Wants to be here for a better life. Wants to simulate. Honors our laws. Respects the country. Does the honorable thing.

illegal alien: Is just here to earn a buck. Has no plan to join the culture. Disobeys our laws. Disrespects our country. Doesn't have enough honor to follow the immigrant path.

Nobody has a problem with immigration, it is a welcomed activity. Those who come here should be treated accordingly. Immigrants are welcome, scofflaws are sent packing.

As with the others, you have only assumptions concerning the illegals...but precisely zero understanding. There's no hardship that we can impose on them here (short of what Germany did in the 1930's e.g. sending armed brownshirts door-to-door demanding "papers, please") that would force them to go home - they're not going anywhere. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue just how strong their drive and determination is.

So if we can't get rid of them - and anyone who thinks we can is living in a dreamworld - then we have to look for other solutions. The Serenity Prayer applies, wherein one asks for the courage to change what can be changed, the patience to endure what can't be changed...and the wisdom to know the difference. Our illegal immigration problem canNOT be changed by "law and order" measures, as is pointed out in The Federalist (which is a conservative and libertarian website):

In 2015 the Border Patrol was more than five times as big as it was in 1995. In 1954, the average Border Patrol officer apprehended 953 illegal immigrants. In 2015, that number dipped to 17, as more officers are chasing fewer illegal immigrants. They set up road checkpoints 100 miles inland that are ineffective at apprehending illegal immigrants but guaranteed to harass American citizens, often depriving them of their Fourth Amendment rights.

The most infamous checkpoint is in the Arizona town of Arivaca, 11 miles from the Mexican border. Residents of this small town have been protesting it for years, and numerous alleged Border Patrol rights violations have escalated to the point of a federal lawsuit. Many local residents are so upset that they are running their own surveillance operation to monitor the Border Patrol. In 2008, 4 percent of Border Patrol agents were assigned to such checkpoints but apprehended a mere 2 percent of illegal immigrants detained in that year. That’s a poor showing, even for government work.

So if pumping more tax dollars and government workers into "law and order" isn't working, is the answer to pump even more tax dollars and government workers to try to make it work? Of course not. That's why we have to look for other answers.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

A system to document new ones?

So what you are talking about is unlimited immigration. Just show up, give your name and you are good to go...whether we want you or not? Oh...and we've got this great benefits package for you. Just ask for it.

Dude...that's worse than just giving them amnesty.

No, it's not. They're here already...and we're not going to be able to get them all to leave regardless of what we do to make them leave. So we can either force them to remain in the shadows - and much more likely to be recruited as part of the criminal element - OR we can give them seasonal work permits...in which they pay taxes to defray the costs the American taxpayer incurs for them being here in the first place. That, and if they have seasonal work permits, they'll be much less likely to be recruited by the criminal element since they won't be forced to live in the shadows.

We can do that...or we can try (yet AGAIN) being "really tough" on them...which simply doesn't work, as I've pointed out already, since I've already watched them get around every single one of the hardships you and the other guy proposed.

 

[clownboy]

Plenty of them would stay despite all that, unfortunately. They work for almost nothing under almost any conditions because it's still better than where they came from.

Unbelievable but true.

Unbelievable because it isn't true. I have lived in a community full of them for 45 years now. They still have to pay rent and buy groceries. If their kids weren't allowed in the schools and they could rent a place or get a job they'd be gone in a heartbeat.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

Unbelievable because it isn't true. I have lived in a community full of them for 45 years now. They still have to pay rent and buy groceries. If their kids weren't allowed in the schools and they could rent a place or get a job they'd be gone in a heartbeat.

Unless you can claim omniscience throughout your community, I'd have to say you're full of it. They'll pay rent and buy food on the black market, which I assure you exists in every community. You can't fight supply and demand.

 

[clownboy]

And you - like the previous guy - are living in a dreamworld. They would not "self-deport". If you knew the immigrant community (legal and illegal) half as well as I do, you'd know just how silly the notion of "self-deportation" really is. As I pointed out to the other guy, they'd find a way around each and every one of the hardships you listed...and that I've seen it myself. What's more - just like I pointed out to the other guy - there's something called "the law of supply and demand"...and when millions of illegals need a way to stay here, to live here, there will be people who will provide their needs...for a price.

That, sir, is reality. You don't have to like it...but you WILL have to live with it.

I know it better than you do by the sound of it. And the reason they are here in the first place is that they cannot afford that price. Without the free services and employment they simply have no reason to be here. The reality is I don't have to live with it, I just have to keep pushing at the politicians I elect to follow the damn law, to deport these assholes.

 

[clownboy]

Unless you can claim omniscience throughout your community, I'd have to say you're full of it. They'll pay rent and buy food on the black market, which I assure you exists in every community. You can't fight supply and demand.

And yet that was YOUR starter claim. :lamo

And actually you can by driving the price up on the supply. Very quickly it becomes a situation where they need more money to stay here than it would take to live comfortably in their home country AND with no added benefit like a free education for their children.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

And yet that was YOUR starter claim. :lamo

And actually you can by driving the price up on the supply. Very quickly it becomes a situation where they need more money to stay here than it would take to live comfortably in their home country AND with no added benefit like a free education for their children.

Which won't matter if they're sure they won't live long after going home. If they can't get their food and shelter from the private sector, they'll get it from organized crime. Not a shocker.

And by the way, are YOU willing to pay double for your groceries and housing just to make them "too expensive" for immigrants? oke