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Easy answer to illegal immigration?

Would you support legislation imposing heavy fines on employers of illegal laborers?


  • Total voters
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HenryLewis

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The Problem:
I am firmly for re-establishing how we regulate both legal and illegal immigration in our nation. I am a firm believer in protecting the resources as well as lands we have in our nation. We need to limit our population in order for this to be a reality. My children aren't going to be able to enjoy the same experiences that I did as a child if this growth continues...

The reason I pick on immigration to accomplish this task is because every statistic I have ever seen portrays the image that our nation's birth rates are stagnant, or even below 2. This means that without immigration our nation would UNDENIABLY have a declining population given an extended time frame.

The Answer:
I believe that illegal immigration has an extremely simple common-sense answer which is altogether avoided because of its apparent impact on wealthy business owners. This answer is to impose fines upon the people who are hiring the illegal immigrants, as opposed to the immigrants themselves. If the fine is high enough then even if the chances of getting caught are extremely low it will still not be a cost-effective practice to employ illegal laborers. Thus, it will not create a good business model and will be dropped as a practice. If it is not cost effective to hire illegal labor then there simply won't be any jobs in our nation for this demographic to occupy, and thus little to no reason to immigrate to here in the first place.

This would be very easy legislation to write, and would not require the formation of any new governmental agencies. I am also pretty confident that the general public would be overwhelmingly (~70%+) in favor of this legislation. The problem would obviously be the same one as usual, getting it through Congress... This does provide an answer for illegal immigration though, which leads me to believe that with the right spin that the Republican party could be swayed into this mindset by their supporters. I am unsure of how this would pass muster with left-leaning Americans though.

Myself:
I describe my political leanings as "other" but I will be actively voting against the Republican party in the foreseeable future due to my scientific background as well as their apparent motivators. I feel like it is important to emphasize this point so as others understand my personal biases.
 

chuckiechan

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E verify should be made a federal law, and it should be enforced.

We have all the laws we need, they just aren't enforced.
 

ttwtt78640

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E verify should be made a federal law, and it should be enforced.

That may put a dent in the problem but how do you E verify the personnel sent to mow your lawn, watch your kid(s), fix your fence or clean your pool? What about the masses that hang out at Home Depot to do day labor? Subcontract (1099) labor is not technically an employee. Most construction and farm work is subcontracted out. I, for example, being self employed get "hired" quite often but am never actually anyone's employee and much of my (handyman) competition is illegal as hell.
 

HenryLewis

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E verify should be made a federal law, and it should be enforced.

We have all the laws we need, they just aren't enforced.

You seem to be missing the point. This is about creating new legislation that is both easy and cheap to enact. E-Verify is a gigantic mess.

E-Verify costs tax payer money and is going to be avoided by employers at all costs. This medium does not require their consent or large amounts of tax payer money.

With large enough fines to the employers this problem would dramatically decline even with extremely low enforcement levels.
 
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MaggieD

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That may put a dent in the problem but how do you E verify the personnel sent to mow your lawn, watch your kid(s), fix your fence or clean your pool? What about the masses that hang out at Home Depot to do day labor? Subcontract (1099) labor is not technically an employee. Most construction and farm work is subcontracted out. I, for example, being self employed get "hired" quite often but am never actually anyone's employee and much of my (handyman) competition is illegal as hell.

Anyone not hiring through a professional service today us very foolish. Someone injured on your property while mowing your lawn...painting your house...washing your windows? Your homeowners insurance does NOT protect you. And, chances are very great they have no workers comp insurance of their own.

Aren't employing people directly. No EVerify responsibility.
 

Captain Adverse

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The problem is, and has always been, about enforcement.

As another member has mentioned, much of the illegal employment occurs in day labor contracting for farming, construction, and yardwork.

You would have to have a group of agents going around from site to site on a regular basis asking for proof of citizenship and the right to work.

Most Americans would not appreciate being stopped and asked for identification even once, much less time and time again while trying to go about their workday.

Stopped just because they fit an ethnic profile.

It also puts an onus on the homeowner, farmer, or construction boss to bear any financial costs necessary to verify; and how are they supposed to do that day in and day out when presented with false ID?

Having said that, I agree that if employer's knew they would be fined for hiring illegal immigrants they would act with greater caution. This would cut off access to the illicit and untaxed income illegals expect to garner and dis-incentivize efforts to seek employment here. I would add there must be something done about cutting off access to our social welfare programs too.
 
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joG

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That may put a dent in the problem but how do you E verify the personnel sent to mow your lawn, watch your kid(s), fix your fence or clean your pool? What about the masses that hang out at Home Depot to do day labor? Subcontract (1099) labor is not technically an employee. Most construction and farm work is subcontracted out. I, for example, being self employed get "hired" quite often but am never actually anyone's employee and much of my (handyman) competition is illegal as hell.

Ask for identification. If it's fishy, don't employ a person.
 

HenryLewis

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The problem is, and has always been, about enforcement (still Typing)

Which is exactly why I posed this solution. Many illegals are deported multiple times in several year periods. If their employer(s) had incurred massive fines/jail time in each of the instances when they got deported then the agency would not only pay for itself, it would put several corrupt business owners out of business.

You don't need high enforcement levels. You need hefty fines or jail time. You CAN scare people into being honest with repercussions.

Your chances of getting caught stealing packages from a neighbor are pretty dang low, but the threat of legal action still keeps most people honest.
 

ttwtt78640

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Anyone not hiring through a professional service today us very foolish. Someone injured on your property while mowing your lawn...painting your house...washing your windows? Your homeowners insurance does NOT protect you. And, chances are very great they have no workers comp insurance of their own.

Aren't employing people directly. No EVerify responsibility.

That is my point - a high percentage of construction, day/job labor and farm labor is not done by "employees". I have no insurance and little of value to sue for - if you don't like that then don't "hire" me. I work 100% for repeat customers or their referrals and have plenty of (too much?) work - I turn down jobs quite often. I love being both self-employed and semi-retired.
 

ttwtt78640

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Ask for identification. If it's fishy, don't employ a person.

Why? If they do the job satisfactorily then I pay them in cash - if not then they walk away broke. That is the simple beauty of contract labor and how a good number of illegal aliens make a living without need of ID or getting "hired".
 

WCH

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Anyone not hiring through a professional service today us very foolish. Someone injured on your property while mowing your lawn...painting your house...washing your windows? Your homeowners insurance does NOT protect you. And, chances are very great they have no workers comp insurance of their own.

Aren't employing people directly. No EVerify responsibility.

If they are illegal, I doubt you'll hear from them.

The majority of people we hire are local and referenced. The only one who I know sent out suspect workers were our roofers but, I know they are insured.
 

MaggieD

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That is my point - a high percentage of construction, day/job labor and farm labor is not done by "employees". I have no insurance and little of value to sue for - if you don't like that then don't "hire" me. I work 100% for repeat customers or their referrals and have plenty of (too much?) work - I turn down jobs quite often. I love being both self-employed and semi-retired.

I have one guy who does work for us who, like you, is semi-retired and in business for himself. He never hires a helper, y the way. He is a shirttail best friend. I trust him. May be a big mistake. Nonetheless, I hire him regularly.
 

Beaudreaux

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The Problem:
I am firmly for re-establishing how we regulate both legal and illegal immigration in our nation. I am a firm believer in protecting the resources as well as lands we have in our nation. We need to limit our population in order for this to be a reality. My children aren't going to be able to enjoy the same experiences that I did as a child if this growth continues...

The reason I pick on immigration to accomplish this task is because every statistic I have ever seen portrays the image that our nation's birth rates are stagnant, or even below 2. This means that without immigration our nation would UNDENIABLY have a declining population given an extended time frame.

The Answer:
I believe that illegal immigration has an extremely simple common-sense answer which is altogether avoided because of its apparent impact on wealthy business owners. This answer is to impose fines upon the people who are hiring the illegal immigrants, as opposed to the immigrants themselves. If the fine is high enough then even if the chances of getting caught are extremely low it will still not be a cost-effective practice to employ illegal laborers. Thus, it will not create a good business model and will be dropped as a practice. If it is not cost effective to hire illegal labor then there simply won't be any jobs in our nation for this demographic to occupy, and thus little to no reason to immigrate to here in the first place.

This would be very easy legislation to write, and would not require the formation of any new governmental agencies. I am also pretty confident that the general public would be overwhelmingly (~70%+) in favor of this legislation. The problem would obviously be the same one as usual, getting it through Congress... This does provide an answer for illegal immigration though, which leads me to believe that with the right spin that the Republican party could be swayed into this mindset by their supporters. I am unsure of how this would pass muster with left-leaning Americans though.

Myself:
I describe my political leanings as "other" but I will be actively voting against the Republican party in the foreseeable future due to my scientific background as well as their apparent motivators. I feel like it is important to emphasize this point so as others understand my personal biases.

The law is already in place - https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/penalties. As with most other laws the Democrats say we need to enact.

That's why you hear the GOP saying "We have the laws, we need to enforce the laws we have" when the Democrats keep saying we need "comprehensive" immigration reform.
 

ttwtt78640

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I have one guy who does work for us who, like you, is semi-retired and in business for himself. He never hires a helper, y the way. He is a shirttail best friend. I trust him. May be a big mistake. Nonetheless, I hire him regularly.

I have many keys to homes/farms that I work in/on and a few of them are owned by out of town (Dallas or Houston) folks. I occasionally hire help and did so two days last week to set an existing 12' x 16' "cottage with lofts and a porch" on a proper pier foundation. Most jobs I can, and prefer to, do by myself but sometimes help is required (even if only for safety).
 

MaggieD

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I have many keys to homes/farms that I work in/on and a few of them are owned by out of town (Dallas or Houston) folks. I occasionally hire help and did so two days last week to set an existing 12' x 16' "cottage with lofts and a porch" on a proper pier foundation. Most jobs I can, and prefer to, do by myself but sometimes help is required (even if only for safety).

I'm very happy that you have found a niche. I personally wouldn't hire you because you hire others without having insurance. I have deep pockets and am not willing to risk a costly lawsuit. No offense. I am happy for you.
 

WCH

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I'm very happy that you have found a niche. I personally wouldn't hire you because you hire others without having insurance. I have deep pockets and am not willing to risk a costly lawsuit. No offense. I am happy for you.

You could draw up a waver. :)
 

Glen Contrarian

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The Problem:
I am firmly for re-establishing how we regulate both legal and illegal immigration in our nation.

I see I'm the only one voting 'no' so far. No surprise there.

*ducks the slings and arrows of outrageous scorn and spite from those who disagree and, by ducking, avoids them*

What you're presenting is an "easy" answer to an issue that cannot be easily addressed. The key factor is this: it does. not. matter. if nobody hires them - they'll still stay here and make businesses of their own.

Why? Ask yourself this: if you're a family man, and you know deep in your gut that where you presently live (say, Honduras or some other place south of the border) is a clear and present danger to your family, that there was a very real chance that you and yours might get killed in the drug wars, or that your kids face the very real possibility of getting kidnapped and sold into sex slavery, and that your family would be much, much safer if you could bring them to America, what would you do? Would you give a rat's ass what America's laws were? No, you would not...because your duty to your family is infinitely stronger and more important to you than that of obeying American laws.

So what happens? They'll come here anyway. If no one hires them, then they'll make businesses of their own. That's a major lesson I learned living in the Philippines - if you don't have a job and can't get a job, then make your own job...'cause if you don't, you won't eat. Likewise, the illegal immigrants here will make their own jobs - they always have and always will.

There is one and ONLY one thing that can be done to stanch the flow of illegal immigrants into America: make their home nations nearly as prosperous and nearly as safe as America already is. Why do you think that so many immigrants come from third-world nations, but not so much from first-world nations? How that can be done, I'm not entirely positive...but - and this goes against the politically-progressive grain (see my political lean) - I pointed out seven years ago that Reaganomics, as bad as they were and are for America's economy, did wonders for much of the developing world...and it can be argued with some success that the progress of developing nations has paid dividends down the line for American workers.

But regardless of what anyone claims, as long as America is so much more prosperous and so much safer than their home nations, there is absolutely nothing that can be done short of going door-to-door brownshirt-style demanding "papers, please" that can decrease the number of illegal immigrants we have today. (note: unless we destroy the economy again, since there was a marked decrease in illegal immigration immediately following the Great Recession - but I really don't think we want to go down that road again)
 

HenryLewis

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The law is already in place - https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/penalties. As with most other laws the Democrats say we need to enact.

That's why you hear the GOP saying "We have the laws, we need to enforce the laws we have" when the Democrats keep saying we need "comprehensive" immigration reform.

A $3,200 dollar fine is a COMPLETE joke. Multiply that by 100 and employers might start caring.
 

HenryLewis

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I see I'm the only one voting 'no' so far. No surprise there.

*ducks the slings and arrows of outrageous scorn and spite from those who disagree and, by ducking, avoids them*

What you're presenting is an "easy" answer to an issue that cannot be easily addressed. The key factor is this: it does. not. matter. if nobody hires them - they'll still stay here and make businesses of their own.

Why? Ask yourself this: if you're a family man, and you know deep in your gut that where you presently live (say, Honduras or some other place south of the border) is a clear and present danger to your family, that there was a very real chance that you and yours might get killed in the drug wars, or that your kids face the very real possibility of getting kidnapped and sold into sex slavery, and that your family would be much, much safer if you could bring them to America, what would you do? Would you give a rat's ass what America's laws were? No, you would not...because your duty to your family is infinitely stronger and more important to you than that of obeying American laws.

So what happens? They'll come here anyway. If no one hires them, then they'll make businesses of their own. That's a major lesson I learned living in the Philippines - if you don't have a job and can't get a job, then make your own job...'cause if you don't, you won't eat. Likewise, the illegal immigrants here will make their own jobs - they always have and always will.

There is one and ONLY one thing that can be done to stanch the flow of illegal immigrants into America: make their home nations nearly as prosperous and nearly as safe as America already is. Why do you think that so many immigrants come from third-world nations, but not so much from first-world nations? How that can be done, I'm not entirely positive...but - and this goes against the politically-progressive grain (see my political lean) - I pointed out seven years ago that Reaganomics, as bad as they were and are for America's economy, did wonders for much of the developing world...and it can be argued with some success that the progress of developing nations has paid dividends down the line for American workers.

But regardless of what anyone claims, as long as America is so much more prosperous and so much safer than their home nations, there is absolutely nothing that can be done short of going door-to-door brownshirt-style demanding "papers, please" that can decrease the number of illegal immigrants we have today. (note: unless we destroy the economy again, since there was a marked decrease in illegal immigration immediately following the Great Recession - but I really don't think we want to go down that road again)

You are fundamentally confused. I am not trying to kick anyone out of the country. I am trying to enact a policy that will reduce the amount of people immigrating here.

This family man from Honduras will likely be even worse off here than in his own country seeing as he would have little to no governmental aid (not a citizen), no money (no jobs), and would be in a foreign land with cultures they don't understand.

You are making fallacious assumptions. The claim that there is nothing that can be done is not only wrong, it is flat out ignorant. There are millions of things that could be done to impede immigration, they just have not been done.

Try again.
 
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DifferentDrummr

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The law is already in place - https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/penalties. As with most other laws the Democrats say we need to enact.

That's why you hear the GOP saying "We have the laws, we need to enforce the laws we have" when the Democrats keep saying we need "comprehensive" immigration reform.

And yet they still refuse to back any such enforcement efforts. Go figure. :roll:
 

Glen Contrarian

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You are fundamentally confused. I am not trying to kick anyone out of the country. I am trying to enact a policy that will prevent more people from immigrating here.

Try again.

Then you did not understand the thrust of my reply, which was "as long as America is so much more prosperous and so much safer than their home nations", they'll come here...and they'll stay here...and they'll make their own jobs, just as they did back home...but in a place that's much more prosperous and safer than the one they left.
 

HenryLewis

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How does prosperity matter if they can't attain it?
 

HenryLewis

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Then you did not understand the thrust of my reply, which was "as long as America is so much more prosperous and so much safer than their home nations", they'll come here...and they'll stay here...and they'll make their own jobs, just as they did back home...but in a place that's much more prosperous and safer than the one they left.

And the claims that we can't do anything about this problem are flat out wrong.

We could nuke Mexico, that would sure as hell effect immigration.

I'm not supporting this idea in the least, just pointing out how intrinsically wrong that statement is.
 

Glen Contrarian

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And the claims that we can't do anything about this problem are flat out wrong.

We could nuke Mexico, that would sure as hell effect immigration.

I'm not supporting this idea in the least, just pointing out how intrinsically wrong that statement is.

Okay, just to address your over-sensitive sensibilities - "there is nothing (other than the solution I already stated earlier) that America could do within the bounds of our laws, national traditions, and social mores that can stanch the flow of illegal immigrants."

Okay? Is that more acceptable to you?

Good grief, guy - we're all intelligent people here, meaning that we generally get what each other means, even when we disagree strongly with each other. We don't have to cover every possibility, however unlikely, as one might find in legal documents or insurance coverage papers.
 
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