East Palestine ground water rainbow colored

[anatta]

I would certainly trust the assessment of the State's EPA over the federal EPA. The federal EPA only became involved because all navigable waters in the lower-48 fall under federal authority, and the spill crossed State borders into both Pennsylvania and West Virginia.

The State of Ohio has an Emergency Response Division under their state EPA. They would be the first people I would contact for more information. They sound similar to the Alaska's Spill & Reponse Division of the ADEC.

problem is the state isnt doing anything -im familiar with interstate vs. intrastate jurisdiction. Or WOTUS even under Obama
( which greatly expanded EPA authority even to ephemeral streams).
so the feds clearly do have jurisdiction. They have money and manpower -so get it done

 

[Arlette]

problem is the state isnt doing anything -im familiar with interstate vs. intrastate jurisdiction. Or WOTUS even under Obama
( which greatly expanded EPA authority even to ephemeral streams).
so the feds clearly do have jurisdiction. They have money and manpower -so get it done

The state, the feds, Biden, Pete, DeWine etc etc etc - what about Norfolk Southern?????
Have we been so brainwashed by neoliberalism that holding a very profitable company accountable for the shit they pull at the public's expense doesn't even enters into the conversation. ****, shoot me already

 

[anatta]

The state, the feds, Biden, Pete, DeWine etc etc etc - what about Norfolk Southern?????
Have we been so brainwashed by neoliberalism that holding a very profitable company accountable for the shit they pull at the public's expense doesn't even enters into the conversation. ****, shoot me already

of course they have culpability, but cleanup is a governmernt response since railroads dont have that capability

 

[anatta]

I doubt it, and if that is where the blame falls it will be a shame. It is not Biden's or Mayor Pete's responsibility to immediately respond to every railroad accident that occurs in the US. That is the responsibility of the State where the accident occurred. Why did the State of Ohio permit an open burn of a known carcinogen when OSHA has determined that only 2 ppmV exposure posses a threat to humans? Why have they not removed the top few inches of soil where the chemical spilled? Where are the results from the soil and water samples that the State should have taken the same day of the accident?

These questions and more can only come from the State of Ohio's EPA Emergency Response Division.

wait. if it's an interstate waters issue, it's clearly within the federal purview for clean up.
It doesnt mean Dewine and Ohio dont do their part, but interstate means EPA jurisdiction is called for

 

[Arlette]

of course they have culpability, but cleanup is a governmernt response since railroads dont have that capability

blah blah blah. Privatize the profits and socialize the risk. That's neoliberalism in a nut shell

 

[anatta]

blah blah blah. Privatize the profits and socialize the risk. That's neoliberalism in a nut shell

blah blah blah isn't a rebuttal. You completely missed culpability - if proven then fines and regs and lawsuits kick in

 

[Arlette]

blah blah blah isn't a rebuttal. You completely missed culpability - if proven then fines and regs and lawsuits kick in

Hell yeah. The cost of lawsuits and fines is already baked into the product.

 

[anatta]

Hell yeah. The cost of lawsuits and fines is already baked into the product.

to an extent. but if the railroad gets hit with million dollar lawsuits, and fines they cant bake that in.
I do agree though if it's more then just negligence ( meaning management had a reasonable expectation they were operating
with gross disregard for safety and the general welfare) somebody should do actual prison time...
but that never happens and it should

 

[Arlette]

to an extent. but if the railroad gets hit with million dollar lawsuits, and fines they cant bake that in.
I do agree though if it's more then just negligence ( meaning management had a reasonable expectation they were operating
with gross disregard for safety and the general welfare) somebody should do actual prison time...
but that never happens and it should

If they get hit with a big settlement their insurance company will pick up the tab. The system is not set up for them to lose.

 

[anatta]

If they get hit with a big settlement their insurance company will pick up the tab. The system is not set up for them to lose.

im not sure what type of insurance/reinsurance they have and if that covers lawsuits. i have my doubts.
I do agree with you insofar as corporations can literally get away with causing deaths and only pay monetary damages.

I gave you what I think are criteria for actual criminal charges - corps are people at the top who make these decisions
etc.

 

[Arlette]

im not sure what type of insurance/reinsurance they have and if that covers lawsuits. i have my doubts.
I do agree with you insofar as corporations can literally get away with causing deaths and only pay monetary damages.

I gave you what I think are criteria for actual criminal charges - corps are people at the top who make these decisions
etc.

A corporation that haules toxic product all over the place is covered from here to kingdom come. As far as corps being people, that's just SC legalese to allow em to game the system.

 

[anatta]

A corporation that haules toxic product all over the place is covered from here to kingdom come. As far as corps being people, that's just SC legalese to allow em to game the system.

Im not going to debate Citizens United except to say any limitations on campaign contributions (McCain- Feingold etc)
are unConstitional -so Citizens United is the default outcome.

Like I said i doubt lawsuits are insurable? but the way to stop corporate indifference to death and mayhem is to use criminal law in suxh cases where they knowingly ignore safety..it has to be a high bar -people dont go to jail for indifference -
there has to be shown a criminal motive to override safety regs..but it should be available in such rare cases

 

[Arlette]

Im not going to debate Citizens United except to say any limitations on campaign contributions (McCain- Feingold etc)
are unConstitional -so Citizens United is the default outcome.

Like I said i doubt lawsuits are insurable? but the way to stop corporate indifference to death and mayhem is to use criminal law in suxh cases where they knowingly ignore safety..it has to be a high bar -people dont go to jail for indifference -
there has to be shown a criminal motive to override safety regs..but it should be available in such rare cases

Criminal law requires to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt for a conviction. You might as well just forget about that in this case.

 

[Glitch]

wait. if it's an interstate waters issue, it's clearly within the federal purview for clean up.
It doesnt mean Dewine and Ohio dont do their part, but interstate means EPA jurisdiction is called for

It wasn't just interstate waters, but also the plume from the "controlled" burn crossed into both Pennsylvania and West Virginia. The NTSB is also involved investigating the train derailment. However, the actual clean up is being done by the State. Norfolk Southern will eventually get the bill for the clean-up costs, but it is the State who is responsible for coordinating the clean-up and making sure everything meets the State standards. The federal EPA should be investigating who permitted the controlled burn of the carcinogenic chemicals and put them behind bars before they are allowed to kill even more people with their utter incompetence.

 

[Glitch]

im not sure what type of insurance/reinsurance they have and if that covers lawsuits. i have my doubts.
I do agree with you insofar as corporations can literally get away with causing deaths and only pay monetary damages.

I gave you what I think are criteria for actual criminal charges - corps are people at the top who make these decisions
etc.

All regulated facilities (which includes railroads) must demonstrate proof of financial responsibility with the State before they are allowed to operate within the State.

 

[Arlette]

It wasn't just interstate waters, but also the plume from the "controlled" burn crossed into both Pennsylvania and West Virginia. The NTSB is also involved investigating the train derailment. However, the actual clean up is being done by the State. Norfolk Southern will eventually get the bill for the clean-up costs, but it is the State who is responsible for coordinating the clean-up and making sure everything meets the State standards.

The federal EPA should be investigating who permitted the controlled burn of the carcinogenic chemicals and put them behind bars before they are allowed to kill even more people with their utter incompetence.

It has to be DeWine. He's the governor in Ohio

 

[Glitch]

It has to be DeWine. He's the governor in Ohio

Your partisanship is showing, again. Governors don't make those kind of decisions.

 

[anatta]

It wasn't just interstate waters, but also the plume from the "controlled" burn crossed into both Pennsylvania and West Virginia. The NTSB is also involved investigating the train derailment. However, the actual clean up is being done by the State. Norfolk Southern will eventually get the bill for the clean-up costs, but it is the State who is responsible for coordinating the clean-up and making sure everything meets the State standards. The federal EPA should be investigating who permitted the controlled burn of the carcinogenic chemicals and put them behind bars before they are allowed to kill even more people with their utter incompetence.

thanks for the info. much appreciated
Interstate is EPA purview - it doesnt mean they have the only jurisdiction but jurisdiction they do have.
It's beyond revolting/disgusting everybody in state and fed government is playing a shell game of passing the buck

Dont drink the water, and it looks like dont bathe in it either

 

[anatta]

All regulated facilities (which includes railroads) must demonstrate proof of financial responsibility with the State before they are allowed to operate within the State.

OK, again thanks, but does that extend to punitive damages? doubtful

 

[Glitch]

thanks for the info. much appreciated
Interstate is EPA purview - it doesnt mean they have the only jurisdiction but jurisdiction they do have.
It's beyond revolting/disgusting everybody in state and fed government is playing a shell game of passing the buck

Dont drink the water, and it looks like dont bathe in it either

Considering OSHA has listed vinyl chloride permissible exposure level to be only 1 ppm over an 8 hour period, I would leave the entire area until all the tests have been done.

 

[Glitch]

OK, again thanks, but does that extend to punitive damages? doubtful

Punitive damages will certainly follow, but clean-up has the highest priority at the moment.

 

[Arlette]

Your partisanship is showing, again. Governors don't make those kind of decisions.

Then who? The governor is the top executive officer of the state.

 

[Glitch]

Then who? The governor is the top executive officer of the state.

The Governor is indeed the Chief Executive Officer, but the Governor also has various departments and agencies under him who are responsible for these kinds of things. Such as Ohio's State EPA, which has its own Commissioner. The Commissioner would have put together a response team, and it is that State response team that is making the on the spot decisions. They may have gotten the State EPA's Commissioner's approval prior to the so-called "controlled" chemical burn, but I doubt it. It was most likely a decision made by one of the State's response team members.

At least I hope that was the case. If it wasn't the State making that decision it would mean the decision was made by either the local East Palestine authorities, or by the railroad company, and the State had no control over the site (which I find difficult to believe). The State's response team would have taken control within hours of the accident, even before the initial fire was put out.

Of course I am basing this off my experiences with Alaska's SPAR Division, who require all spills greater than 55 gallons to be reported within 48 hours of occurring. Whereas Ohio's EPA doesn't require reporting of a spill for as long as 30 days. So it may not be an accurate comparison.

 

[Arlette]

The Governor is indeed the Chief Executive Officer, but the Governor also has various departments and agencies under him who are responsible for these kinds of things. Such as Ohio's State EPA, which has its own Commissioner. The Commissioner would have put together a response team, and it is that State response team that is making the on the spot decisions. They may have gotten the State EPA's Commissioner's approval prior to the so-called "controlled" chemical burn, but I doubt it. It was most likely a decision made by one of the State's response team members.

At least I hope that was the case. If it wasn't the State making that decision it would mean the decision was made by either the local East Palestine authorities, or by the railroad company, and the State had no control over the site (which I find difficult to believe). The State's response team would have taken control within hours of the accident, even before the initial fire was put out.

We were talking about that "controlled burn" - somebody in Ohio had to sign off on it. And that would be the governor

 

[Glitch]

We were talking about that "controlled burn" - somebody in Ohio had to sign off on it. And that would be the governor

No, it would not be the Governor. It would be the Commissioner of the Ohio EPA, at best, and it probably was just one of the State's response team members making that decision.