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E-fuels becoming a reality (1 Viewer)

longview

longview

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Remember when people said that Carbon Neutral hydrocarbon fuels were not possible.
Carbon-Neutral eFuels Coming, Porsche Invests $75 Million in Company
Porsche knows that it doesn’t matter in the big picture if you say you're eliminating carbon emissions from this model or that one; the key is to get fossil fuels out of the picture. If you can do that, and still drive a liquid-fueled car, why not make it a 911? Steiner said.
Click to expand...
 
nvflash said:
Thanks, that is interesting.

One hopes it pans out good, I've seen many articles over the years with companies promising this or that, never to be heard from again.
Click to expand...
It is a reality, the big question is where is the economic viability point, that point where it is more
profitable for a refinery to make finished fuel products from scratch rather than from oil.
Europe’s first power-to-liquid demo plant in Norway plans renewable aviation fuel production in 2023
ExxonMobil planning hydrogen production, carbon capture and storage at Baytown complex; 1B cfd of blue hydrogen
The Exxon link is the most interesting, because it is a Unit Scale, and while the plan is to get the hydrogen from Natural Gas,
the process is exactly the same if the hydrogen comes from water.
 
Mycroft said:
What does the "e" stand for?
Click to expand...
I think environmental, but the broad term is power to liquid, and is gasoline, Jet fuel, or Diesel, that is made
from harvested CO2, so when the fuel is burned, it produces zero net increase in the atmospheric CO2.
Power-to-Liquids, explained
 
longview said:
I think environmental, but the broad term is power to liquid, and is gasoline, Jet fuel, or Diesel, that is made
from harvested CO2, so when the fuel is burned, it produces zero net increase in the atmospheric CO2.
Power-to-Liquids, explained
Click to expand...
The question becomes does it take a retro fitting of the fuel system to burn this type of fuel?
 
nvflash said:
The question becomes does it take a retro fitting of the fuel system to burn this type of fuel?
Click to expand...
No, it is gasoline, Jet Fuel and Diesel, an exact chemical duplicate, just not made from oil.
The Naval Research Labs, has been working on the idea for about a decade,
Video,US Naval Research Lab's Willaeur on Turning Seawater Into Fuel
One limitation they found is that artificially building hydrocarbons, seems to only make premium fuel (100 Octane).
I ask one of my Son's Friends who is a Ford Mechanic, if that would be an issue, and he said all the engines
can do higher octane, just not lower.
 
longview said:
No, it is gasoline, Jet Fuel and Diesel, an exact chemical duplicate, just not made from oil.
The Naval Research Labs, has been working on the idea for about a decade,
Video,US Naval Research Lab's Willaeur on Turning Seawater Into Fuel
One limitation they found is that artificially building hydrocarbons, seems to only make premium fuel (100 Octane).
I ask one of my Son's Friends who is a Ford Mechanic, if that would be an issue, and he said all the engines
can do higher octane, just not lower.
Click to expand...
Well, that is promising.(y)

There is a CNN article that goes into a bit more detail:

www.cnn.com

Can wind, water and air combine in a new energy revolution? This Chilean startup wants to find out | CNN

Highly Innovative Fuels is building a $55 million test facility for eFuels using wind power and captured carbon, which is scheduled to become operational later this year.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

Basically the fuel may cost about $6/gal. depending on electricity costs, and I think that's pretty reasonable. The higher octane won't be an issue, it's rather a benefit.

This solves an issue with older cars, collectable or the like, that people will still want to be able to drive once all newer cars move to a viable alternative in ICE that requires carbon fuels. It's not zero emissions, but because you are not really adding any net carbon it should be a workable solution.
 
nvflash said:
Well, that is promising.(y)

There is a CNN article that goes into a bit more detail:

www.cnn.com

Can wind, water and air combine in a new energy revolution? This Chilean startup wants to find out | CNN

Highly Innovative Fuels is building a $55 million test facility for eFuels using wind power and captured carbon, which is scheduled to become operational later this year.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

Basically the fuel may cost about $6/gal. depending on electricity costs, and I think that's pretty reasonable. The higher octane won't be an issue, it's rather a benefit.

This solves an issue with older cars, collectable or the like, that people will still want to be able to drive once all newer cars move to a viable alternative in ICE that requires carbon fuels. It's not zero emissions, but because you are not really adding any net carbon it should be a workable solution.
Click to expand...
Zero emission vs Carbon neutral, both are viable ways of moving to a sustainable energy future.
The Navy says their process is 60% efficient, while Sunfire is claiming up to 81% efficient.
If we use the Navy's lower number, and $0.05 per Kwh electricity, the breakeven cost would be,
33 Kwh per gallon of Gasoline/.6% =55Kwh, 55Kwh X $0.05 = $2.75 scratch cost, X the roughly 35 gallons of fuel made from each barrel
of oil, $2.75 X 35 = $96.25 per barrel oil.
Now I know the price is higher than that currently, but the refineries will not gamble that it will stay that high,
they will wait and see what the price stabilizes at after the Ukraine conflict is concluded.
 
longview said:
Remember when people said that Carbon Neutral hydrocarbon fuels were not possible.
Carbon-Neutral eFuels Coming, Porsche Invests $75 Million in Company
Click to expand...

Nope. Never heard anyone say such stuff.
What I heard was that carbon neutral fuels would never be affordable.
And for a while that was indeed the case.

Porsche took this step...I think two years ago or last year? Something like that...I was excited to hear the news
even though my first reaction was "Porsche??? Huh???".
But okay, so Porsche is really interested in developing CN drop-in eFuels...cool.

I'm sure they'll have a lot of company in short order, and by the way, a lot of the research and development
was partially funded by you and I, the taxpayers.
DoE has been handing out grants for stuff like that since the 1990's.
I'll try to look it up but I suspect that I might be able to get Robert Rapier to talk about it, because this is right
in his wheelhouse. He may even beat me to it and talk about it in Forbes or on TV somewhere and if he does,
he will link to it on one of his pages.

It IS exciting because it's another way we can respond to current petroleum geopolitical skullduggery.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Nope. Never heard anyone say such stuff.
What I heard was that carbon neutral fuels would never be affordable.
And for a while that was indeed the case.

Porsche took this step...I think two years ago or last year? Something like that...I was excited to hear the news
even though my first reaction was "Porsche??? Huh???".
But okay, so Porsche is really interested in developing CN drop-in eFuels...cool.

I'm sure they'll have a lot of company in short order, and by the way, a lot of the research and development
was partially funded by you and I, the taxpayers.
DoE has been handing out grants for stuff like that since the 1990's.
I'll try to look it up but I suspect that I might be able to get Robert Rapier to talk about it, because this is right
in his wheelhouse. He may even beat me to it and talk about it in Forbes or on TV somewhere and if he does,
he will link to it on one of his pages.

It IS exciting because it's another way we can respond to current petroleum geopolitical skullduggery.
Click to expand...
The very first report I read about this, besides Fraunhofer University, was Audi who Purchased
an old refinery for research in about 2011. What they started spunoff as Sunfire, which is building the plant in Norway now.
I actually think the big refineries will still come out ahead in the game, because they have most of talent,
most of the production infrastructure, and all of the distribution infrastructure.
As for being affordable, that will determine when the carbon neutral fuels are globally used.
When they are the least expensive choice at the pump, people everywhere will buy them.
 
longview said:
No, it is gasoline, Jet Fuel and Diesel, an exact chemical duplicate, just not made from oil.
The Naval Research Labs, has been working on the idea for about a decade,
Video,US Naval Research Lab's Willaeur on Turning Seawater Into Fuel
One limitation they found is that artificially building hydrocarbons, seems to only make premium fuel (100 Octane).
I ask one of my Son's Friends who is a Ford Mechanic, if that would be an issue, and he said all the engines
can do higher octane, just not lower.
Click to expand...
That would be awesome. On 100 octane, I could tune my SHO to get...oh, a out another 60-70 hp.
 
nvflash said:
Well, that is promising.(y)

There is a CNN article that goes into a bit more detail:

www.cnn.com

Can wind, water and air combine in a new energy revolution? This Chilean startup wants to find out | CNN

Highly Innovative Fuels is building a $55 million test facility for eFuels using wind power and captured carbon, which is scheduled to become operational later this year.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

Basically the fuel may cost about $6/gal. depending on electricity costs, and I think that's pretty reasonable. The higher octane won't be an issue, it's rather a benefit.

This solves an issue with older cars, collectable or the like, that people will still want to be able to drive once all newer cars move to a viable alternative in ICE that requires carbon fuels. It's not zero emissions, but because you are not really adding any net carbon it should be a workable solution.
Click to expand...
Emissions in high population density areas would remain an issue.

But with this...hybrids just became a lot more viable long term.
 
KevinKohler said:
That would be awesome. On 100 octane, I could tune my SHO to get...oh, a out another 60-70 hp.
Click to expand...
Yep, I am not sure that should be phrased as a limitation!
 
longview said:
The very first report I read about this, besides Fraunhofer University, was Audi who Purchased
an old refinery for research in about 2011. What they started spunoff as Sunfire, which is building the plant in Norway now.
I actually think the big refineries will still come out ahead in the game, because they have most of talent,
most of the production infrastructure, and all of the distribution infrastructure.
As for being affordable, that will determine when the carbon neutral fuels are globally used.
When they are the least expensive choice at the pump, people everywhere will buy them.
Click to expand...
If they're 100 octane, us gear heads will be buying looong before it's "more affordable".
 
Next question...

Does this process work for the production of plastics, or is it specifically for finished fuel products?
 
KevinKohler said:
Emissions in high population density areas would remain an issue.

But with this...hybrids just became a lot more viable long term.
Click to expand...
I don't think so. Modern IC cars emit little but CO2, and if the CO2 is all captured CO2,
there is zero net CO2. The unknowns are diesel for heavy trucks, but I suspect hybrids will help this as well.
Diesel engines are very efficient at one speed and load, a Hybrid Truck would have all the torque,
but the engine would stay at the same load.
 
longview said:
I don't think so. Modern IC cars emit little but CO2, and if the CO2 is all captured CO2,
there is zero net CO2. The unknowns are diesel for heavy trucks, but I suspect hybrids will help this as well.
Diesel engines are very efficient at one speed and load, a Hybrid Truck would have all the torque,
but the engine would stay at the same load.
Click to expand...
Globally, captured co2 is net zero.

But the co2 emitted doesn't immediately evenly disperse. City's still have to contend with air quality issues.
 
KevinKohler said:
If they're 100 octane, us gear heads will be buying looong before it's "more affordable".
Click to expand...
As will those who like to show they are environmentally friendly.
It is a concern, that it will keep the prices high for a while, thus delaying wide usage.
 
KevinKohler said:
Next question...

Does this process work for the production of plastics, or is it specifically for finished fuel products?
Click to expand...
If you have Hydrogen and Carbon, you can make any hydrocarbon product, but I suspect oil
will still be used for plastics for quite a while.
BTW this is a similar process to how synthetic oil has been made for decades.
They take natural gas and break it down and reassemble it into lubricating oil.
 
KevinKohler said:
Globally, captured co2 is net zero.

But the co2 emitted doesn't immediately evenly disperse. City's still have to contend with air quality issues.
Click to expand...
Combined with other advancing technology, like hybrids, I suspect even the CO2 levels in cities will decline.
CO2 itself is not much of an air quality issue, as it is largely invisible.
 
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