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Dutch MP Geert Wilders' anti-Islam film sparks protests

Degreez

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Grant

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The first verse shown in Wilders' film:



The rebuttal:


Do you honestly believe out of context scripture deserves intellectual scrutiny?

Degreez, you are quoting 861 and he is quoting 860, both one liners.

What I am saying, and it seems to be going right over your head, is that instead of quoting single sentences that you read the whole thing. You will then have the entire "context".

Why is this proving to be so difficult for you? Are you really stoned when you show up here?
 

Degreez

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Degreez, you are quoting 861 and he is quoting 860, both one liners.

What I am saying, and it seems to be going right over your head, is that instead of quoting single sentences that you read the whole thing. You will then have the entire "context".

Why is this proving to be so difficult for you? Are you really stoned when you show up here?

... :shock:

I am merely quoting the contents of a link:

You Shall Be Prepared: A Divine Commandment

8:60:You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster

It is amazing that a fragment has been taken from 8:60. The verse after 8:60 which is 8:61 is not listed. Obviously Mr. Wilder did this for effect. However he loses credibility when some may try to read the next sentence also which negates his original assertion.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

Also the ref to context in 8:60 is the story of Moses from the Bible and the Torah. The story is simply repeated in the Quran.


[8:53] GOD does not change a blessing He has bestowed upon any people unless they themselves decide to change. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

[8:54] Such was the case with the people of Pharaoh and others before them. They first rejected the signs of their Lord. Consequently, we annihilated them for their sins. We drowned Pharaoh’s people; the wicked were consistently punished.

[8:55] The worst creatures in the sight of GOD are those who disbelieved; they cannot believe.

[8:56] You reach agreements with them, but they violate their agreements every time; they are not righteous.

[8:57] Therefore, if you encounter them in war, you shall set them up as a deterrent example for those who come after them, that they may take heed.

[8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.

[8:59] Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.

[8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

God Suffices the Believers

[8:62] If they want to deceive you, then GOD will suffice you. He will help you with His support, and with the believers.

[8:63] He has reconciled the hearts (of the believers). Had you spent all the money on earth, you could not reconcile their hearts. But GOD did reconcile them. He is Almighty, Most Wise.

[8:64] O you prophet, sufficient for you is GOD and the believers who have followed you.

The part I made bold is the part I quoted in my post. I even said the entire context was in the link, but it's quite obvious you didn't even bother checking it. Or even read my posts coherently it seems...
 

Picaro

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Hey genius, it was you who was supporting out of context scripture as if it does anything to prove a point. Maybe if you stopped the marijuana use, your short term memory wouldn't resemble someone with Alzheimer's.

Hey, genius, what 'scripture' are you raving about? You have no idea how to cite the Koran yourself, so you can't possibly know if anybody has. Your own 'cites' are nonsense, which will be explained in an answer to a serious poster's query.
 
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Picaro

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I've read the link involved and feel the context is quite clear. This "taken out of context" excuse is just an excuse. This is especially clear when the context is not being explained.

Read these links and see if it becomes a little more clear to you.

Chronological Order of Surahs

Chronological Order of Surahs

Chronology

What evidence do you have that he never read it?

Because he states that Geert Wilders has been 'rebutted', and no one who has really read the Koran is unaware of the above problems in citing the Koran, and plus he then cites 8:Something or Other, and has no idea if it has been abrogated by any number of later verses.

See Sura 2:106 and Sura 16:101 for the naksh doctrine, or Google it. The Koran is not laid out in chronological order, or numbered that way, either. Not many know that, including the purported 'expert' here. In order for 8:33 to taken in 'context', for instance, he would have to verify that it wasn't abrogated by later verses.

As for 'context', you would have to read more than just one verse; after all, the Koran is just a collection of the ravings of a psychopath, and is all hearsay at that. Many of the verses have no connection with the verses before or after, so the western concept of 'context' doesn't really apply.
 
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Red_Dave

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How many Muslims do you think there would have to be before they assume control?

Well even if they were interested in 'taking control' which the overwhelming majority are not then i think its fair to say that they would have to a the very least exceed the 5% margin that they are not yet past.
 

Picaro

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Oh, I forgot to ask why, with all their concern for 'context', the grand Rupee 'rebuttal' stops at 8:64; was there something about 8:67 that might have showed them to be idiots? Why, yes there is, thank you.
 

Andalublue

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Oh, I forgot to ask why, with all their concern for 'context', the grand Rupee 'rebuttal' stops at 8:64; was there something about 8:67 that might have showed them to be idiots? Why, yes there is, thank you.

Sorry? Did I miss something? Rupees? Rebuttals? 8:64? 8:67? What's going on? What's this all about? Has it got ANYTHING to do with Geert Wilders? If not, please stop. Stop playing silly games and debate the f**king subject! Red Dave, Picaro, grant and Degreez, please take this onto a thread designed for hair-splitting. If you haven't got anything to say about Wilders then don't say anything.
 

Picaro

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Sorry? Did I miss something? Rupees? Rebuttals? 8:64? 8:67? What's going on? What's this all about? Has it got ANYTHING to do with Geert Wilders? If not, please stop. Stop playing silly games and debate the f**king subject! Red Dave, Picaro, grant and Degreez, please take this onto a thread designed for hair-splitting. If you haven't got anything to say about Wilders then don't say anything.

It has to do with some faux 'rebuttal' of what Wilders said in his film, so, if you don't know, or got lost, feel free to ignore what you can't keep up with. It indeed has a bearing on Wilder's film and what some kangaroo court is going to prosecute him for. Whether you like that or not is, well, just too bad for you.
 
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Andalublue

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It has to do with some faux 'rebuttal' of what Wilders said in his film, so, if you don't know, or got lost, feel free to ignore what you can't keep up with. It indeed has a bearing on Wilder's film.

No, I have been reading this c**p for pages and pages on this thread. I keep up fine, I just find it irrelevant, disingenuous, dishonest and devious to debate how many angels are dancing on the top of Geert's pinhead. You are indulging in this charade to avoid discussing the important issues of what he stands for, what response should be given and what this means for real people, not pseudo-intellectuals w**kers on an internet forum.

If that's all you want to discuss, knock yourselves out. The grown-ups will be elsewhere.
 

Picaro

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You are indulging in this charade to avoid discussing the important issues of what he stands for, what response should be given and what this means for real people,

I haven't avoided anything, and I've also made it obvious where I stand on Wilders.

not pseudo-intellectuals w**kers on an internet forum.

If that isn't knee jerk projection, nothing is.

The grown-ups will be elsewhere.

If you're representative of 'The Grownups', we can all hope so.
 
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Picaro

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Here is the Rupee News' 'rebuttal', claiming to cite Surah 8:53 through 8:64:
REFUTING THE HALF-TRUTH AND LIES OF MR. GEERT WILDERS.
Aliph) The first verse that Mr. Wilders showed as evidence for banning the Quran was
You Shall Be Prepared: A Divine Commandment

Ah ... already we have a 'context' problem ... unless you think that since the title of Surah 8 is 'The Spoils Of War' in many 'Korans' doesn't change the 'context' or anything ...

...
8:60:You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster
It is amazing that a fragment has been taken from 8:60. The verse after 8:60 which is 8:61 is not listed. Obviously Mr. Wilder did this for effect. However he loses credibility when some may try to read the next sentence also which negates his original assertion.

It's even more amazing that they think they have some sort of 'credibility' re citing 'The Koran', since they've obviously cherry picked their version of it to cite, but never mind ...

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

Also the ref to context in 8:60 is the story of Moses from the Bible and the Torah. The story is simply repeated in the Quran. The

The Koran cites the story of Moses several times, in fact; being a faux 'religion', it takes the lazy way out and uses a lot of filler from several religions for it's 'religious' aspect, which in any case is only window dressing over a psychopath's dreams of imperialism and slaughter, but then the editorial is not about accuracy, or 'context', it's all about smearing Wilders, as it's title referring to 'Dutch Nazis' clearly makes no bones about, speaking of 'context', so facts never come into play here.

[8:53] GOD does not change a blessing He has bestowed upon any people unless they themselves decide to change. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

[8:54] Such was the case with the people of Pharaoh and others before them. They first rejected the signs of their Lord. Consequently, we annihilated them for their sins. We drowned Pharaoh’s people; the wicked were consistently punished.

[8:55] The worst creatures in the sight of GOD are those who disbelieved; they cannot believe.

[8:56] You reach agreements with them, but they violate their agreements every time; they are not righteous.

[8:57] Therefore, if you encounter them in war, you shall set them up as a deterrent example for those who come after them, that they may take heed.
[8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.

[8:59] Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.

[8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. God Suffices the Believers

[8:62] If they want to deceive you, then GOD will suffice you. He will help you with His support, and with the believers.

[8:63] He has reconciled the hearts (of the believers). Had you spent all the money on earth, you could not reconcile their hearts. But GOD did reconcile them. He is Almighty, Most Wise.

[8:64] O you prophet, sufficient for you is GOD and the believers who have followed you.

To take the dissembling about Wilder's supposed 'taking the Koran out of context' to next level, let's discuss the faux 'rebuttal' at Rupee News, which in itself is a classic example of just how pointless fatuous assertions of 'context' are re the Koran.

For instance, from the copy of the Koran I have here at home:

Surah VIII

'The Spoils Of War'

Other English translations use the title 'The Ascensions', but then when you read up on subjects like taqqiyya, Kithman, etc., you will find that the Koran says it's okay to lie and dissemble to unbelievers, and in fact it's encouraged if it helps disguise the truth about the 'duties' and goals of Islam as laid out by Mohammed, and it becomes obvious that many supposed translations of the various 'Korans' meant for Western 'enlightenment' are deliberate falsifications.

But, onward ...

Surah 8:60 Make ready all thou canst of (armed) of force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not, Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.

Doesn't quite match the Surah 8:60 cited by either Wilders or Rupee News, does it? Neither do the other supposed 'cites' listed by Rupee's imaginary 'rebuttal'.

This problem of the many 'Korans' makes any claims of 'context' ridiculous on their face, as anybody who has taken the time to actually read them would know.

For more in the way of 'context', here's Surah 8:67, from my home copy:

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

You think that might add some more 'context' to that stretch of Surah 8 cited by Rupee News' 'crack investigative staff'? ....
 
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Picaro

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Well, still not a shred of evidence Wilders is a fascist, a racist, or anything at all but just a moderate liberal. I thought the claims wouldn't bear up, so we can move on.

Shouldn't the faux 'Left' be up in arms over the malicious, fascistic, and baseless attempts at smearing Wilders? Shouldn't the faux 'Left' be holding demonstrations against the bogus charges made against him and be holding forth on his rights of free speech?
 
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