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Don't burn the Koran in Britain!

Gardener said:
You really have absolutely no idea what the term freedom of speech means, do you?

The issue of the first amendment frames the relationship between the citizen and the state, and not between two citizens. In the case of Great Britain arresting people it was an action of the state, while in the case of the firing it was the action of an individual.
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I wouldn't have referenced the event if the guy wasn't fired by his employer - which I believe also happens to be part of the state.

Gardener said:
duh!
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I haven't found the links to the story since I saw it this morning but you might end up eating those words if his employer was of the public sector...
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I wouldn't have referenced the event if the guy wasn't fired by his employer - which I believe also happens to be part of the state.



I haven't found the links to the story since I saw it this morning but you might end up eating those words if his employer was of the public sector...
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Well, if this is true, then it is because his rights were violated rather than his arrest being in accordance with our laws. It would be a miscarriage of our justice system rather than an act carried out because of it.
 
Gardener said:
Actually, I do, so please don't make too much of a fool of yourself, o.k.?
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So because you are American, then that some how makes you better than the rest of us when it comes to free speech?
 
PeteEU said:
So because you are American, then that some how makes you better than the rest of us when it comes to free speech?
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Whatever you say, Pete.
 
Gardener said:
Yes, yet you and other Brits here only acknowledge the extreme right while fighting strenuously against any suggestion that the British left is also capable of indulging in hatred. In this, you mirror the general tenor of political correctness in Britain that turns a blind eye to hatred as long as the hatred comes from certain quarters.

When the "incitement to hatred" law is actually applied to ALL who indulge in such, it remains a mockery to the very notion it purports to represent.
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I think you'll find many users on here who 'you' pigeon hole to the left have spoken out on many issues that you profess are neglected by the left

groups such as

BBC News - Islam4UK Islamist group banned under terror laws

Paul
 
There's a lot of conclusion jumping going on here. We don't yet know what the guys were arrested for, just what they were charged with. There may be elements in the video that the police haven't released or there may be other actions that haven't been mentioned. Why don't we wait and see?

Freedom of expression is not an absolute right anywhere, there are limits to it, and different countries draw the boundaries in different places. It would be reassuring if such differences did not become ammunition for ner-ner international finger pointing, but that's perhaps a vain hope.
 
gunner said:
I think you'll find many users on here who 'you' pigeon hole to the left have spoken out on many issues that you profess are neglected by the left

groups such as

BBC News - Islam4UK Islamist group banned under terror laws

Paul
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That was you who sponsored that measure? It looks like it was some of your U.K. conservatives to me.

Since you folks have plenty of time to vent about all manner of things in this forum, perhaps you can point me to all those criticisms of Islamist groups.

They seem conspicuous by their absence, especially considering the vigor and thoroughness with which some of you attack the right wing racism. Where IS your condemnation of other forms of bigotry and intolerance, eh?
 
Gardener said:
Well, if this is true, then it is because his rights were violated rather than his arrest being in accordance with our laws. It would be a miscarriage of our justice system rather than an act carried out because of it.
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I never said Derek Fenton was arrested - he was escorted away by US police and later fired by NJ transit - a public sector employer. The point raised by Jamesrage was of "consequences" and I pointed out they exist in the US too.

The 6 EDL guys in Gateshead have been arrested & since bailed, the legal process isn't over yet and it's still for the police to make a case of "incitement."
 
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Infinite Chaos said:
I never said Derek Fenton was arrested - he was escorted away by US police and later fired by NJ transit - a public sector employer. The point raised by Jamesrage was of "consequences" and I pointed out they exist in the US too.

The 6 EDL guys in Gateshead have been arrested & since bailed, the legal process isn't over yet and it's still for the police to make a case of "incitement."
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Well, if he is in the public sector and was fired for his political beliefs, our laws should protect him because we value freedom of speech -- even if others do find it to be an incitement. here, the term "incitement" involves actual attempts to incite to violence rather than political expression.
 
Gardener said:
That was you who sponsored that measure? It looks like it was some of your U.K. conservatives to me.

Since you folks have plenty of time to vent about all manner of things in this forum, perhaps you can point me to all those criticisms of Islamist groups.

They seem conspicuous by their absence, especially considering the vigor and thoroughness with which some of you attack the right wing racism. Where IS your condemnation of other forms of bigotry and intolerance, eh?
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You need to brush up on your political knowledge dear chap Alan Johnson was from the previous government, that would be a Labour government.

Without doing a search i can recall their were plenty of users who condemned this group at the time. It may look to be a disproportionate, in your opinion, of ring wing bashing but lets face you can only battle the enemy in front of you....

Paul
 
Gardener said:
Well, if he is in the public sector and was fired for his political beliefs, our laws should protect him because we value freedom of speech
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such freedoms have limits anywhere you go.

Gardener said:
-- even if others do find it to be an incitement. here, the term "incitement" involves actual attempts to incite to violence rather than political expression.
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and as I've said, the case of the EDL guys isn't done yet. As I also said in my first post, I think the police made a mistake - but we don't have all the facts of the story yet.
 
Gardener said:
Well, if he is in the public sector and was fired for his political beliefs, our laws should protect him because we value freedom of speech -- even if others do find it to be an incitement. here, the term "incitement" involves actual attempts to incite to violence rather than political expression.
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If he had been protesting during working hours, then the transit authority might have a case. As it is, he was not acting as a transit employee, but as a private citizen whose rights should be protected.

Fenton was not in uniform and apparently not on the clock when he staged his protest in front of news photographers and reporters covering demonstrations marking the anniversary of the World Trade Center attack.

"So long as his actions, however misguided, took place on his own time, and he was not acting in his capacity as a representative of NJTransit but as an American exercising his constitutional rights, then the agency is clearly in the wrong," Sen. Raymond Lesniak (D-Union) said in a statement.
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Fenton should be reinstated. It looks to me as if he has a strong case. Even an article biased against him shows that he was acting as a private citizen whose constitutional rights were clearly violated. If I were him, I'd sue.
 
gunner said:
You need to brush up on your political knowledge dear chap Alan Johnson was from the previous government, that would be a Labour government.
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I was referring to this statement

"Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling welcomed the decision to ban Islam4UK, saying Conservatives had been calling for the government to act".
 
Dittohead not! said:
If he had been protesting during working hours, then the transit authority might have a case. As it is, he was not acting as a transit employee, but as a private citizen whose rights should be protected.



Fenton should be reinstated. It looks to me as if he has a strong case. Even an article biased against him shows that he was acting as a private citizen whose constitutional rights were clearly violated. If I were him, I'd sue.
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Seems like Fenton wasn't a one off case.

"Who's going to be the next person looking for their next 15 minutes of fame? I'm appalled by it," Gov. Paterson said. "More and more, particularly this year, I feel that the memory of those who were lost is being disrespected."

The Koran burning was not just confined to New York. In Springfield, Tenn., two pastors, Danny Allen and Bob Old, were photographed lighting Korans on fire.

At Jones' Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Fla., protesters arrived early yesterday along with a heavy police presence equipped with bomb sniffing dogs.

"There have been several threats to the church and church members," said Tscharna Senn, an officer with the Gainesville police.

Cops pounced on one protester, 29-year-old Sebastain Bagby, when he held up a Koran and whipped out a lighter. The officers grabbed the items out of Bagby's hand but didn't arrest him.

Jean Albiges, 21, drove with friends from Eckerd College in St. Petersburg to rally against Jones.

"I think there will be massive repercussions for our troops, and people need to understand that he does not represent all Americans," he said.NYDaily News
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Arrest and sacking isn't the only way protest is curbed. Seems PeteEU wasn't far off the mark a page back.
 
I think this comment from Youtube is a powerful argument NOT to burn the Koran:

amper0003 (2 weeks ago)

Thanks for invite, my friend.
We MUST read the Koran, read this s -. Don't burn it, READ it cause burning is not making us stronger and smarter.

Know thy enemy - read the Koran.

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YouTube - wakeup6661's Channel


Moderate Muslims may fear nothing whilst the pushier ones and other extremists may fear everything. If ever there was a choice, then it shouldn't be we suffering the heart-struck terror advocated by Muhammad!
 
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Oh, you bet. And it would likely be genuinely deserved. Indeed, for the fact that Jews behave themselves like the rest of us, plus the fact they endured mass slaughter and tyranny through their history (no small amount by Muslims), only an idiot would touch the Jews or Judiasm.
 
Hyena said:
I wonder if it would been the same if they had burnt a Torah...
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If it had been a Torah, Ken Livingstone, George Galloway and other loonies would have invited them to a banquet in their honor, and the British left would love them for making such a brilliant political statement.
 
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Republic_Of_Public said:
BIBLE IN TOILET - Art and ironic statement on something or other.



Why do liberals call it art when the bible is in a puddle of urine? - Yahoo! Answers



KORAN IN TOILET - HATE CRIME! Send those FASCISTS to court!



Little Green Footballs - Koran in a Toilet: Now an Official Hate Crime



Those liberal-left twunts have got some explaining to do!
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There is certainly a great deal of hypocrisy on the left (just as there is the right), but the real issue isn't one of liberalism and conservatism, but failure to evaluate the world using consistant standards. Much of the left has become quite illiberal just as much of the right is not conservative, and the processes involved aren't those of ideology, but of mindless groupthink. People don't ever stop long enough to wonder WHY they support the bible incidence as "art", while decrying the same treatment of the Qu'ran, only that they are expected to react in the ways they do. It is just part of a rewards/punishment system where people are rewarded with praise for saying the same things all their little mates say, and punished lest they say anything that is not politically correct.

It's the emperor's new clothes syndrome at work.
 
Indeed. This new politically-correct 'liberalism' is far removed from the standards the likes of Winston Churchill once held to his name.

I'd have far more respect for these disgusting people if they didn't want to impose their hypocritical will on people just wanting to live and think otherwise from them.

At college, where such differences were more stark with youthful exuberance, I found I had a whale of a time properly debating with people thinking completely different to me. For example, though a friend may have been an ardent advocate of not sending most criminals to prison, we'd both be open-minded enough to ask each other questions and examine huge potential flaws in both our outlooks, not worried for a minute about name-calling, invalidation or dogpiling.

In other words we kids would learn from each other what few facts and real life experience we had, then grope towards some kind of truth. Later on I would run up against PC liberal teachers and student union dogmatics and the enlightenment would cease, as the imposition of views dressed as facts or snooty derision would begin.
 
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And in case you ever doubted the logic of some of our people wanting to burn the Koran in frustration, a roam around Youtube throws up a great many belligerent comments from the nuttier Islamics, just to prove the anger isn't all one-way:


YouTube - anaum100's Channel

anaum100 (1 month ago)
Marked as spam

ul be ruined Inshallah...ul be burned to DEATH nobody will puke on ur rotten body
die u all a PAINFUL DEATH U low life pepl who think sick about this beautiful religon. .
ULL get to know what azab is very soon...!

muslims are better then u in every way.. THE BOMBARS ARE FROM BLOODY FBI , CIA AND RAW JUST TO
POTRAY ISLAM AS A BAD RELIGION BECAUSE U FU***** HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO....MUSLIMS NEVER TALK CRAP ABOUT ANY RELIGION CAUSE THEY CARE FOR HUMANITY AND HAVE BASIC ETHICS.
SHAME ON U...U GOOD FOR NOTHING SICK PEOPLE
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YouTube - west4all's Channel

For a Religion of Peace, it certainly attracts more than its fair share of the unhinged.
 
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