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Dont' be a traitor

Radical Ron

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Many people have told me my views are to the left. Sweeping left (whacko liberal) and I am not ashamed of my views. But I have come to a bitter halt in my support of the American left wing with the agenda to pullout our troops from the Iraqi nation. What!!!!!!!! How can you turn your back on your own men, who swore and oath to protect you! This new bill is a travesty! For the first time in a decade of being active in politics I am insulted by a member of the left. Nancy Pelosi, and this "Murphlus" guy, what a joke. I was adamantly against entering Iraq and I wanted a diplomatic solution, but we went to war with the support of the country. Those men and women fighting the war are my friends and brothers, and for legislators to open propose an end to the war that is, to put it simply, confusing to me. I do not like or agree with George Bush on anything, but it is not him out there, it is us... Now we want to leave the country to it's own crumbling fake government? What happened to Americans being honorable people and standing up for what was right? Was that just a lie? Not to me, I belive in America. Those cowards in congress should think before they speak such treachery!
 

cnredd

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Radical Ron said:
Many people have told me my views are to the left. Sweeping left (whacko liberal) and I am not ashamed of my views. But I have come to a bitter halt in my support of the American left wing with the agenda to pullout our troops from the Iraqi nation. What!!!!!!!! How can you turn your back on your own men, who swore and oath to protect you! This new bill is a travesty! For the first time in a decade of being active in politics I am insulted by a member of the left. Nancy Pelosi, and this "Murphlus" guy, what a joke. I was adamantly against entering Iraq and I wanted a diplomatic solution, but we went to war with the support of the country. Those men and women fighting the war are my friends and brothers, and for legislators to open propose an end to the war that is, to put it simply, confusing to me. I do not like or agree with George Bush on anything, but it is not him out there, it is us... Now we want to leave the country to it's own crumbling fake government? What happened to Americans being honorable people and standing up for what was right? Was that just a lie? Not to me, I belive in America. Those cowards in congress should think before they speak such treachery!
People can have many legitimate issues when referring to Iraq...or any other political event...

What gets annoying...and you have shown your annoyance well...is when someone's ONLY issue is that the person they are dissenting upon has a (D) or an (R) after their name...even at the risk of hurting the country more than it helps...

It's sad to think that certain individuals will only come to a decision based on the person's political affiliation instead of what's being said...

It's nice to see you're an exception to that rule...:2wave:
 

Binary_Digit

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Radical Ron said:
This new bill is a travesty!
What new bill?

"I have listened to my colleagues who oppose this nomination [of Condoleeza Rice], and I have spoken to them off the floor. I want to make clear to people around the world, there is not a single one of these colleagues who wants us to cut and run from Iraq. There is not a single one of these colleagues who does not fully support our troops there." - Joe Lieberman

On the other hand, the newly elected Iraqi government asked the U.S. for an exit timeline several months ago. The fact (?) that hasn't been done yet seems to contradict the notion that "as the Iraqis step up, we will step down." I guess maybe that's not the kind of "stepping up" we're looking for.

I think everyone can agree that we shouldn't pull out until Iraq is ready, or future generations will have a bigger mess to deal with down the road. So the $64,000 is, are they ready? And if not, when will they be? Ok, two questions, $32k a piece.
 

Red_Dave

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Radical Ron said:
Many people have told me my views are to the left. Sweeping left (whacko liberal) and I am not ashamed of my views. But I have come to a bitter halt in my support of the American left wing with the agenda to pullout our troops from the Iraqi nation. What!!!!!!!! How can you turn your back on your own men, who swore and oath to protect you! This new bill is a travesty! For the first time in a decade of being active in politics I am insulted by a member of the left. Nancy Pelosi, and this "Murphlus" guy, what a joke. I was adamantly against entering Iraq and I wanted a diplomatic solution, but we went to war with the support of the country. Those men and women fighting the war are my friends and brothers, and for legislators to open propose an end to the war that is, to put it simply, confusing to me. I do not like or agree with George Bush on anything, but it is not him out there, it is us... Now we want to leave the country to it's own crumbling fake government? What happened to Americans being honorable people and standing up for what was right? Was that just a lie? Not to me, I belive in America. Those cowards in congress should think before they speak such treachery!
Well now that Saddams gone surely it would be more democratic to give iraq back to the iraqis. If someones needed to keep the peace the UN would be a better option then the De Facto Colonisation of Iraq we are seeing under america.
 

Binary_Digit

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If history is any indication, the UN would just strike a deal with the insurgency to sell humanitarian relief supplies on the black market.
 

ProudAmerican

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Binary_Digit said:
If history is any indication, the UN would just strike a deal with the insurgency to sell humanitarian relief supplies on the black market.
amen to that.

how can ANYONE suggest allowing the UN to be in charge of anything after that nonsense.

its in Americas, and Iraqs best intrest that we stay there untill the job is complete, and the country is functioning properly.
 

ProudAmerican

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Radical Ron,

its nice to hear there are those on the left that can think clearly, and make informed decisions based on the facts, rather than partisan politics.
 

Binary_Digit

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Some of the most brilliant minds in history have held both liberal and conservative ideals with pride. Remembering this helps me forget the partisan crap and work to understand the other side better. Invariably the conclusion I come to is, every problem in the world is best solved using a little bit of both perspectives.
 

jfuh

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ProudAmerican said:
Radical Ron,

its nice to hear there are those on the left that can think clearly, and make informed decisions based on the facts, rather than partisan politics.
A bit judgmental of a statement as there are fundamentalists on both sides that will make rediculous judgements based on non-sense.
 

ProudAmerican

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jfuh said:
A bit judgmental of a statement as there are fundamentalists on both sides that will make rediculous judgements based on non-sense.
I must admit, you are correct.

I made that statement based on the topic he was speaking of in his post....which is finishins the war in Iraq.

IMO, we have done the right thing there. On that topic alone, I do not believe conservatives are being fundamentalists.

however, on some issues, I think they are.

so if I was being judgemental, my apologies.
 

Binary_Digit

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And there are partisan team fanboys who'se favorite defense is "they did it too!" No matter who wins that kind of argument, America loses. :(
 

Bergslagstroll

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Ok see if I understand. You send in your soldiers and risk their lifes (even if you risk more Iraq cilvilians lifes) and one of the big reasons was supposely democracy in Iraq. But then the elected Iraqie goverment wants a timetable it's treason for American to respect their will. Just intersted in how you american thinks.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by Radical Ron
How can you turn your back on your own men, who swore and oath to protect you!
You think not turning your back on the troops is to keep them in harms way so more of them can killed?
 

Binary_Digit

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Bergslagstroll said:
Ok see if I understand. You send in your soldiers and risk their lifes (even if you risk more Iraq cilvilians lifes) and one of the big reasons was supposely democracy in Iraq. But then the elected Iraqie goverment wants a timetable it's treason for American to respect their will. Just intersted in how you american thinks.
Firstly, the new Iraqi government has not asked for an exit timetable. I used to think the same thing, but someone in Debate Politics corrected me just a few days ago. That request was made by only a single member of the new government, and does not constitute the government's full capacity decision.

Secondly, after the 1991 Gulf War, thousands of Iraqis were slaughtered in an uprising while trying to gain control of the government for themselves. We do not want a repeat occurance of this. So we want to make damn sure the new Iraqi government is stable enough on its own, and legitimate enough in the eyes of the Iraqi people, before we withdraw forces.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1992/Iraq926.htm

Thirdly, be careful to distinguish between the pre-war reasons and the post-war reasons. You see, a number of the pre-war reasons didn't exactly turn up, and the administration has admitted that much of that intelligence was wrong. So in order to look on the bright side, we're often reminded by the administration of the post-war reasons - another Middle East democracy, better infrastructure, democratic elections, brighter future, etc. None of these were the main justification war, or else we would be justifying war in about 60% of the world. No, it took an "iminent threat" of WMD attacks and nightmares of mushroom clouds for the President to gain enough support in America to invade Iraq.
 
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Calm2Chaos

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Red_Dave said:
Well now that Saddams gone surely it would be more democratic to give iraq back to the iraqis. If someones needed to keep the peace the UN would be a better option then the De Facto Colonisation of Iraq we are seeing under america.
Ya the UN would be such a good idea. We all see how they are capable of handling military situations. So lets have the UN secure Iraq, And when they fail, and they will. We will again have to go back and fight for everything over again. Colonization???...............Please :roll: :roll:
 

Calm2Chaos

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Bergslagstroll said:
Ok see if I understand. You send in your soldiers and risk their lifes (even if you risk more Iraq cilvilians lifes) and one of the big reasons was supposely democracy in Iraq. But then the elected Iraqie goverment wants a timetable it's treason for American to respect their will. Just intersted in how you american thinks.

When did the Iraqi goverment request a timetable? I think us Americans, at least me anyway are curious when the request for this timeline came in by the government of Iraq?
 

Binary_Digit

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Calm2Chaos said:
Ya the UN would be such a good idea. We all see how they are capable of handling military situations. So lets have the UN secure Iraq, And when they fail, and they will. We will again have to go back and fight for everything over again.
And in the future we'd be blamed for not finishing the job.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Binary_Digit said:
And in the future we'd be blamed for not finishing the job.
Without a doubt... Soon as they inevitably realize they can't do the job because they aren't taken seriously, or they strike a "DEAL" with the terrorist. They would then need the problem to be fixed but also someone to blame the problem on in the first place
 

cnredd

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Binary_Digit said:
Firstly, the new Iraqi government has not asked for an exit timetable. I used to think the same thing, but someone in Debate Politics corrected me just a few days ago. That request was made by only a single member of the new government, and does not constitute the government's full capacity decision.

Secondly, after the 1991 Gulf War, thousands of Iraqis were slaughtered in an uprising while trying to gain control of the government for themselves. We do not want a repeat occurance of this. So we want to make damn sure the new Iraqi government is stable enough on its own, and legitimate enough in the eyes of the Iraqi people, before we withdraw forces.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1992/Iraq926.htm

Thirdly, be careful to distinguish between the pre-war reasons and the post-war reasons. You see, a number of the pre-war reasons didn't exactly turn up, and the administration has admitted that much of that intelligence was wrong. So in order to look on the bright side, we're often reminded by the administration of the post-war reasons - another Middle East democracy, better infrastructure, democratic elections, brighter future, etc. None of these were the main justification war, or else we would be justifying war in about 60% of the world. No, it took an "iminent threat" of WMD attacks and nightmares of mushroom clouds for the President to gain enough support in America to invade Iraq.
That's pretty damn close BD!...You're starting to catch on!...:2wave:

Here's my spin on it that bears repeating from a previous thread...

I think the UN was under the assumption that sanctions
would be imposed, the inspectors would come in and
monitor the destruction of chemical & biological weapons
that he already had, and then the sanctions would be lifted.

But Saddam threw in the monkey wrench...He STOPPED the
inspections and kicked the inspectors out. The UN sanctions
didn't have the intent they thought it would, but the UN would
look incredibly stupid if they lifted them after Saddam
removed the inspectors, so to save face, they left the sanctions on.

Now Saddam knew the UN buckled...the ball was in his court...
He'll get the sympathy vote from the Arab nations that the big,
bad UN had killed the little children. Not that he really cared.

So the UN went for Round 2...Inspection time again!

First, the UN would put on that "determined" look and ratify
Resolution 1441, which says, "Saddam's been screwing up; if he
continues to screw up, we might do something extreme." Saddam must've
hurt his abdomen laughing at that one...The only thing they've done
in ten years was put on sanctions, which he was getting around anyway...
What were they going to do next? Put up a billboard saying, "Saddam's
not a very good person"?

This time, Saddam said he would allow inspectors as long as the head
of the inspection team was not American...Guess what?...The UN said "OK"!

Since when was any of the UN demands negotiable?...The UN, as the world
speaking with one voice, should've said "NO...YOU do things OUR way...
not the other way around." The Buckle Boys are VERY consistent...

Meanwhile, the US said, you know what?...These sanctions aren't hurting
the regime...they're hurting the people...and if the UN is stupid enough
to keep this 3-card monte game up, we're gonna have to do this ourselves.

But Bush knew the American people are fickle. If he told them that he
was going into Iraq to free the people and get the sanctions off of
the people's back, the Americans would've yawned and said, "Keep it
down...I'm watching Sex & the City."

So he used data from the previous administration that was outdated and
incomplete recent data and stirred up the troops with the "threat" angle.
It was a complete roll of the dice, and, as we've learned, came up craps.

It probably would've shocked him if WMDs were actually found, but by this time,
he had what he wanted...An open window to get rid of a bad guy and to plant
the seeds of Democracy. Just like childbirth, he knew it was going to be
painful, both in military and political policies, but he knows that,
long term, the world will be better off for it...Let the critics bitch & moan...
Hell, Abe Lincoln was elected President for a second term with only 39% of
the vote! Nine states had ZERO votes for him! And I don't think Abe get
crapped on for what he did, does he? Bush is following the same form...

Hate him now...hate him all you want...but in about 20, 30, or even
50 years from now, when most, if not all, of the dictatorships in the Middle
East are gone and Democracy rules the roost...look back to April, 2003...
Watch the Saddam statue coming down...then you'll know why this was all started.

insert picture of waving flag with a Sousa march in the background...
 

Radical Ron

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The bill I was refering to was one spoken of by Nancy Pelosi (D-California) at a town hall meeting a week ago on C-Span. I don't know the senator's name who "is going to" propose it (I think it's Murphlus). The point of that really is how can you openly and publicly support a pull out bill for Iraq when it hasn't even been proposed? I was against the war from the beginning but I am an American, and as radical as I may think America will always be my homeland.
I appreciate the sentiment that people should not think along partisan lines, I hope we can all do this on many different issues, not just the war in the middle east.
I still think that it is too soon to withdraw Coalition forces from Iraq.
 

Binary_Digit

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I sure hope your right Cnredd, but that sounds a lot like the same plan they had for Israel in 1948...and unfortunately about 10,000 unforseen consequences have cropped up from it.
 
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