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Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

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true story. Picture it. San Vito Air Station, Italy, 1988. Two young staff Sergeants. These two ladies are roommates. Both are Russian Linguists working at the base. For whatever reason, someone decided that the little air station had not had any real scandals recently, and began a witch hunt. There were more service members involved, but I only personally knew the 2 women, so I wont comment on any of the others. One of these airmen had been airman of the quarter 3 times, in the previous year, and had just recently been declared airman of the year. Her military record was exemplary, and every review she had received had been glowing in every respect. The other woman, while not quite the perfect airman as the first, had never been in trouble, and performed her duties admirably. Someone thought that maybe these two young ladies were a tad closer than simple roommates. Accusations were made, inquiries were made..In the end, both ladies were forced out of the military, and the air force lost 2 russian linguists at a time when this was a shortage career field. Someone please explain to me, how this was GOOD for the military? Tell me how it is EVER good to force out good, honest, hard working people?
 

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The DoD prohibits adultery? You learn something new everyday.
I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall the UCMJ classifies every sexual act between a man and woman other than coitus in the missionary position as sodomy. Obviously, this isn't enforced terribly often.
 
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The DoD prohibits adultery? You learn something new everyday.

But yes, it should be done away with, as long as a soldiers private life has no impact on their service, I don't see why it should be prohibited, if the soldier commits adultery on base, yes, there should be a punishment, if it is in no way connected to their service, it shouldn't be a problem, same with being gay, if they flirt with a fellow soldier, they should be punished, if they're seen in public by their superior, off-duty, holding hands with their spouse, I don't see why they should be discharged for that.

The UCMJ article prohibiting adultery is VERY specific. You are not going to be court martialed just for having a one night stand.
Elements.

(1) That the accused wrongfully had sexual intercourse with a certain person;

(2) That, at the time, the accused or the other person was married to someone else; and

(3) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.

there is much much more to it, of course, I just posted that quickly. It is easy enough to look up the entire article. Just do a google on UCMJ adultery
 
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apdst

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The DoD prohibits adultery? You learn something new everyday.

But yes, it should be done away with, as long as a soldiers private life has no impact on their service, I don't see why it should be prohibited, if the soldier commits adultery on base, yes, there should be a punishment, if it is in no way connected to their service, it shouldn't be a problem, same with being gay, if they flirt with a fellow soldier, they should be punished, if they're seen in public by their superior, off-duty, holding hands with their spouse, I don't see why they should be discharged for that.

Until, the company commander is ****ing the wife of one his platoon sargeants. Then it can become a problem.

These regulations are in place, to keep good order among the ranks, for the good of the service. Not to discriminate against anyone.

Good order, morale and discipline take priority over political correctness. People's lives are at stake.
 

apdst

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true story. Picture it. San Vito Air Station, Italy, 1988. Two young staff Sergeants. These two ladies are roommates. Both are Russian Linguists working at the base. For whatever reason, someone decided that the little air station had not had any real scandals recently, and began a witch hunt. There were more service members involved, but I only personally knew the 2 women, so I wont comment on any of the others. One of these airmen had been airman of the quarter 3 times, in the previous year, and had just recently been declared airman of the year. Her military record was exemplary, and every review she had received had been glowing in every respect. The other woman, while not quite the perfect airman as the first, had never been in trouble, and performed her duties admirably. Someone thought that maybe these two young ladies were a tad closer than simple roommates. Accusations were made, inquiries were made..In the end, both ladies were forced out of the military, and the air force lost 2 russian linguists at a time when this was a shortage career field. Someone please explain to me, how this was GOOD for the military? Tell me how it is EVER good to force out good, honest, hard working people?

That sounds like a unit that had a weak ass commander. The commander should have made decisions based on hrad evidence, rather than rumors and hearsay. Was the commander female?
 
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But we ARE talking witch hunts. I was there. I saw that one, and was fortunate enough to see another one when I was still in tech school. In that one, there was no evidence, no proof against the 10 or so they accused, but all but one were badgered, and went through so much hell during the whole thing that they took the honorable discharges they were offered in lieu of court martial, and moved on and out. The one who fought it basically said... "Courtmartial me. Prove it"

It was no proven, he was exonerated of all charges, and the last I knew (3 years ago) was still serving. Yes, he was and is gay.
 
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I support DADT.

If I ever join the military, it would be much more fun to bugger in secret.

Activist judge ruins fun gay sex for sergeants everywhere.
 

danarhea

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This case has not truly been decided yet, and won't be until it gets before SCOTUS. The decision was handed down by a court in California, and those decisions have been frequently overturned higher up. Doesn't make the decision any less right. Personally, I applaud the court for doing the right thing.

Want a little bit of irony here? The lawsuit was brought by a group of Republicans. DADT was enacted during a Democratic administration (Clinton). Isn't this a little backwards? LOL.
 

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true story. Picture it. San Vito Air Station, Italy, 1988. Two young staff Sergeants. These two ladies are roommates. Both are Russian Linguists working at the base. For whatever reason, someone decided that the little air station had not had any real scandals recently, and began a witch hunt. There were more service members involved, but I only personally knew the 2 women, so I wont comment on any of the others. One of these airmen had been airman of the quarter 3 times, in the previous year, and had just recently been declared airman of the year. Her military record was exemplary, and every review she had received had been glowing in every respect. The other woman, while not quite the perfect airman as the first, had never been in trouble, and performed her duties admirably. Someone thought that maybe these two young ladies were a tad closer than simple roommates. Accusations were made, inquiries were made..In the end, both ladies were forced out of the military, and the air force lost 2 russian linguists at a time when this was a shortage career field. Someone please explain to me, how this was GOOD for the military? Tell me how it is EVER good to force out good, honest, hard working people?

Because their evil queers!!!! :roll:
 
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That sounds like a unit that had a weak ass commander. The commander should have made decisions based on hrad evidence, rather than rumors and hearsay. Was the commander female?

The commander was male, apdst..but that is not the point. See..they harass, and accuse, and offer an honorable discharge (as happened at my tech school) or end up taking it to court martial. To avoid the humiliation and the nightmare of a court martial, most simply choose the honorable discharge.
 

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I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall the UCMJ classifies every sexual act between a man and woman other than coitus in the missionary position as sodomy. Obviously, this isn't enforced terribly often.

Yes, you would be mistaken.

This how Article 125 actually reads.

“(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient
to complete the offense.

(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall by punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) That the accused engaged in unnatural carnal copulation with a certain other person or with an animal. (Note: Add either or both of the following elements, if applicable)

(2) That the act was done with a child under the age of 16.

(3) That the act was done by force and without the consent of the other person.

Explanation.

It is unnatural carnal copulation for a person to take into that person’s mouth or anus the sexual organ of another person or of an animal; or to place that person’s sexual organ in the mouth or anus of another person or of an animal; or to have carnal copulation in any opening of the body, except the sexual parts, with another person; or to have carnal copulation with an animal.
 
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Needless to say, just like with any blue law, they are RARELY enforced. In fact, they are pretty much only enforced, if the person is on such thin ice, and they wish to remove them, so they suse this as the easiest way to remove them. Rather like getting someone they cant pin anything else on (even though they know he is guilty) for tax evasion.
 

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Yes, you would be mistaken.

This how Article 125 actually reads.
Very well, I stand corrected. Oral sex and anal sex are prohibited under the article. What's the rationale there?
 

apdst

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The commander was male, apdst..but that is not the point.

I'm speculating that the commander was a female and had been rebuked by one, or both of these airmen. See how having gays serving in the military can be detrimental to good order?




See..they harass, and accuse, and offer an honorable discharge (as happened at my tech school) or end up taking it to court martial. To avoid the humiliation and the nightmare of a court martial, most simply choose the honorable discharge.

Again, it sounds like the unit commander was weak. A strong leader, that is going to get rid of two soldiers--especially exemplary soldiers--would do it based on some very firm evidence. That's the way I would handle it.
 

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Until, the company commander is ****ing the wife of one his platoon sargeants. Then it can become a problem.
That is a problem and should be dealt with accordingly, that's my point, but if a married blokes boinking his neighbours wife, completely seperate from his military life, I don't see a problem.
These regulations are in place, to keep good order among the ranks, for the good of the service. Not to discriminate against anyone.

Good order, morale and discipline take priority over political correctness. People's lives are at stake.

Peoples lives will not be risked by a bloke going home from base and buggering another bloke. Moral, order and discipline will still be in place, and people won't have to worry about good soldiers being discharged for off-base behaviour that doesn't affect their service.
 

apdst

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Very well, I stand corrected. Oral sex and anal sex are prohibited under the article. What's the rationale there?

It's in the interest of the good order of the service.
 

OscarB63

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I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall the UCMJ classifies every sexual act between a man and woman other than the missionary position as sodomy.


you are referring to UCMJ article 125

Text.

“(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense.

(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall by punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) That the accused engaged in unnatural carnal copulation with a certain other person or with an animal. (Note: Add either or both of the following elements, if applicable)

(2) That the act was done with a child under the age of 16.

(3) That the act was done by force and without the consent of the other person.

Explanation.

It is unnatural carnal copulation for a person to take into that person’s mouth or anus the sexual organ of another person or of an animal; or to place that person’s sexual organ in the mouth or anus of another person or of an animal; or to have carnal copulation in any opening of the body, except the sexual parts, with another person; or to have carnal copulation with an animal.


it's not just the UCMJ. look up the word sodomy in any dictionary and see what you get. most of them mention anal or oral copulation between persons or a person and an animal.

One would hope that, in light of this ruling that the UCMJ would be ammended. I doubt if there are very many heterosexuals in the military that haven't violated 125 at one point or another.

But leave in the bit about animals...that's just nasty :2sick1:

As far as DADT, I think it was a stupid idea all along. I have served with and supervised a number of gay soldiers during my time. I didn't ask, they didn't tell...but I could tell and I really didn't give a rat's ass as long as they were doing their job.

The flaming homos that most of the kneejerkers fear are not the kind of people that would ever join the military in the first place, so no one has to worry about being sodomized in the barracks shower.

getting rid of DADT will not result in a massive flood of gays rushing to join the military. most of the gays who would be inclined to join already do so, they just try to keep their status secret.

Any man, woman, gay, or lesbian that has the courage and fortitude to serve their country should be allowed to do so openly and with pride.
 

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I'm speculating that the commander was a female and had been rebuked by one, or both of these airmen. See how having gays serving in the military can be detrimental to good order?

And this could happen with straight soldiers also. So your point fails.
 
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Then, as much as I hate to say it, you are more reasonable than many. As a veteran, if you were never lucky enough to see a witch hunt occur at any of your stations, then you have no idea how the atmosphere can be. It is pretty dreadful. There are weak commanders..there are strong commanders. But there will ALWAYS be those so homphobic, or so generally scared or bigoted, that they don't care about facts and hard evidence. And those accused may also be weak, and not willing to fight it. Sometimes it is easier to slink away. That they were put into a position where they had this choice to make is the shame of it.
 

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It's in the interest of the good order of the service.
Well I figured that much. Is there anything specific to those acts that is any more harmful to good order than coitus? I ask that sincerely, as I really don't understand why it would be.
 

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But leave in the bit about animals...that's just nasty :2sick1:
Yeah, if you're getting it on with an animal, you need to be in an institution other than the military. Nasty.
 

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Well I figured that much. Is there anything specific to those acts that is any more harmful to good order than coitus? I ask that sincerely, as I really don't understand why it would be.

Well duh. We can't have our soldiers getting blow jobs off-duty. THERE ARE LIVES AT STAKE HERE!!!!!1!1!1!!11
 
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Well I figured that much. Is there anything specific to those acts that is any more harmful to good order than coitus? I ask that sincerely, as I really don't understand why it would be.

My husband has always said that nobody under the age of 45 is mature enough to handle sex. I have to agree with them. Sex will ALWAYS cause problems in any organization. Many businesses have clauses which prohibit fraternization and romantic relationships between their employees, because they are aware of this. You have a couple who work together..they break up, or have a fight, and all of a sudden, you have 2 people who are most likely not working as they should be..People are STUPID about sex. Sex turns us all into idiots! it does not matter if you are gay or straight. You want to make rid the military of this problem? Fine..mandatory castration for all men, and ..hmm..not sure how you remove the sex drive from women. But wait..that would get rid of the sexual urges, but how about relationships? Oh screw it..make robots. There you go. No more problems.
 
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