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Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

MSgt

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I, Sir, am offended in the extreme. But yes, I was Air force. I was (had to look it up, I do not know marine MOS's at all) a 2791. Don't know if there is another designator that would need to be added. Army MOS was 98C..the Air force one was 208, but they changed their AFSC numbers after I got out, so no idea what the new one is.

NO wait..missed the exact title in the list. I would be a 267x Russian.

The MOS' across the branches have changed drastically over the last two decades. I came in a 2512, which turned into 0612, which incorporated the former 2514/0614 MOS. Now I'm an 0699.

I never understood why the Army and Air Force congratulate the promoted and insist on calling them the same rank throughout their careers.
 
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Well, consider how sure pundits were of the great "Iraqi Civil War." Or the pundits who declared that Iraqis voting will never happen. Or that Iraq is unwinnable. The military has been blasted by our own pathetic leaders yearly about impending failure and doom. In the mean time, Americans tuned in and repeated. Well, here we are without an Iraqi Civil War, voting Iraqis (even the Sunni), and a win. But the same voices will declare that all will eventually fail because they have not perfected Vermont in the desert after 7 whole years. Of course, they will dismiss the fact that even the French had to take almost a century to get past their internal slaughters and troubles of developing democracy and even voted in Napoleon along the way.

People just don't have a clue what they are talking about because they don't understand the issues they make stupid statements. They imagine a bad guy coming to a table of surrender so we can throw ourselves a parade (or at least letting the bad guy go after a show of force as we did the Gulf War). And when that day doesn't come, it means failure. They fail to recognize the world they live in. They fail to understand how long Muslims in this region have struggled for democracy and social equality through European colonialism and Cold War. A couple hundred years of infighting has come about because of European nation designs. Without those unnatural borders, there would not be so much infighting. This is why I believe we may have screwed up by insisting that Iraq stay whole. Cramming tribes together and insisting that a handy dandy dictator or elite class control them has come to an end. Even Europe's Yugoslavia had to rip itself apart to correct the past. Of course, anti-Western venom didn't school the oppressed and impoverished in "Yugoslavia" like it has throughout the ME.

Oh, I firmly believe that once we had gone in there, we truly should have pushed for deunification (okay, its not a word, But I like it anyway). These people will never be able to live together in peace. Not for long anyway. Or at least I dont see it happening. I try not to use definitives often, but I really just cant imagine it. There is too much bad blood..And no Romeo and Juliet around to show them the error of their feud. And I don't see the existing government sticking around as it is for very long. For the citizens of that part of the world, religion is not part of their lives..it is their lives. And they work best under a theocracy. It can be a democratic theorcracy, but they will always turn to their religious leaders, and it is only natural that their religious leaders also be their governmental leaders.
 

apdst

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It shouldn't exist at all. Are you suggesting people can't be adults, and that heterosexual males will have sex willingly with homosexual males?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Anyone that's spent any amount of time in the service, especially Marine, or Army combat arms units, know what I'm talking about.

We're dealing with kids, here. The average age of your garden variety light infantry unit is 22 y/o. Take a group of 30 males, aged 18-25; in your opinion, would the maturity level of that group be above, or below average?
 
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The MOS' across the branches have changed drastically over the last two decades. I came in a 2512, which turned into 0612, which incorporated the former 2514/0614 MOS.

I never understood why the Army and Air Force congratulate the promoted and insist on calling them the same rank throughout their careers.

Heh..The main thing most care about is the increase in base pay and BAQ and BAS anyway. Besides..it takes too long to spit out a full rank. People could be dying behind you while you try to say Master gunnery sgt. If you only have to say sarge, maybe only one will get hit.
 
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Ap, if you truly think that little of these soldiers, I see very little hope in you ever changing your mind. People can and do control themselves when it is necessary. Obviously, since gay men and women have been serving quietly for centuries, the problematic incidents have been pretty low. So your low opinion of our soldiers seems incorrect.
 

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The MOS' across the branches have changed drastically over the last two decades. I came in a 2512, which turned into 0612, which incorporated the former 2514/0614 MOS.

I never understood why the Army and Air Force congratulate the promoted and insist on calling them the same rank throughout their careers.

must be an Air Force thing because in the Army we believe that you earned the rank and you deserve to be called by it. I, for one, would never dream of calling a SSG, SFC, MSG, 1SG or SGM, "sarge". However, i will and have on numerous occasions called a 2LT, "dumbass" :lol:
 

apdst

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That's right, you can't. Because it's in violation of the Army's sexual harassment policy. Correct? The same will be said about gays and straights sharing billets. In fact, the commandant of the Marine Corps has already said that gays and straights won't be able to share billets.



but I think you should. what the hell...this isn't the freakin middle ages. I personally think if you are going to have a coed service then everyone should ****, shave, shower and sleep together. If you can't act like a fraking responsible adult, then I don't want your immature ass serving with me.

C'mon, we both know better. There just aren't that many 18 y/o with that level of maturity. Most of those boys have never seen a ***** in real life. You think they're not going to be-a-lookin'? When those sex hormone take over, people automatically do stupid ****. I'm sure you know that better than I do.
 

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C'mon, we both know better. There just aren't that many 18 y/o with that level of maturity. Most of those boys have never seen a ***** in real life. You think they're not going to be-a-lookin'? When those sex hormone take over, people automatically do stupid ****. I'm sure you know that better than I do.

and how is letting gay dude serve going to make the situation any worse? If we are going to let women serve then we have no logical reason to not also allow gays to serve. now if you want to talk about repealing woomen's right to serve...then that would be a discussion for a separate thread.
 
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and how is letting gay dude serve going to make the situation any worse? If we are going to let women serve then we have no logical reason to not also allow gays to serve. now if you want to talk about repealing woomen's right to serve...then that would be a discussion for a separate thread.

You watch yourself now oscar, or I'm gonna tear up the picture of you that I printed and hung here next to my computer.
 
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must be an Air Force thing because in the Army we believe that you earned the rank and you deserve to be called by it. I, for one, would never dream of calling a SSG, SFC, MSG, 1SG or SGM, "sarge". However, i will and have on numerous occasions called a 2LT, "dumbass" :lol:

When I was active duty, I have never called an active duty sargeant who was not a friend of mine "sarge". It was always sargeant. However, off duty, and in this forum, yes, I do use the diminutive.
 

apdst

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I am pretty sure that is not the rationale used. I believe it has more to do with not wanting women in combat than worrying about fraternization. I am sure you will have no problem backing up that statement though.

Several reasons, actually. The reason you pointed out, along with unit cohesion, fraternization, sexual harassment. Yes, your addition to my comment is correct.
 

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You watch yourself now oscar, or I'm gonna tear up the picture of you that I printed and hung here next to my computer.

not saying i would ever agree with it, just that such a discussion should take place in a thread dedicated to it
 

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Why are people even debating this?

The issue is settled. Whether you believe homosexuality is a sin, a character flaw, a mental disorder, an addiction, etc. and whether you believe that gays will be a distraction in the military, that this is an act of "social engineering", etc., it doesn't change the one fact that matters.

DADT was UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

The military cannot infringe upon our basic Constitutional rights whether we are gay or straight. The military exists to protect our Constitutional rights, as well as to protect us from foreign threats.

The military can and does infringe on soldiers's basic constitutional rights, everday. Soldiers don't have the same right to free speech that a civilian does. Soldiers's don't have the same right to associate with who they want, or the right to be a part of any club, or orginization they choose.

The 9th Circus has no authority to dictate to the military what it's regulations can, or cannot, make illegal. nor should it. The military being regulated by the judicial branch would be the most dysfunctional way to go about raunning a standing army. It would be plmb nuts and thousands of American would suffer, because of it.
 

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and how is letting gay dude serve going to make the situation any worse? If we are going to let women serve then we have no logical reason to not also allow gays to serve. now if you want to talk about repealing woomen's right to serve...then that would be a discussion for a separate thread.

Women cannot serve in combat arms units. That is the point I'm making. IMO, there shouldn't be any co-ed units in the Army, or Marine Corps. They should be all male, or all female. BTW, what's your branch of arms?
 

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Oh, I firmly believe that once we had gone in there, we truly should have pushed for deunification (okay, its not a word, But I like it anyway). These people will never be able to live together in peace. Not for long anyway. Or at least I dont see it happening. I try not to use definitives often, but I really just cant imagine it.

It's because it is unnatural. Even Europe is divided along tribal lines. Yugoslavia was the only country not to have its borders redrawn after WWII and right after the Cold War it took action on its own to draw lines. When the British gave India its independence, Hindu and Muslim agreed that a separation was best and they created Pakistan. Slaughters and ethnic cleansing in Africa are all centered around tribal (or clan) identity within borders. And an Iraq without a dictator's oppression and brutality is an Iraq where tribes clashed. Borders have historically separated tribes. Europe's brief intermission from the norm to satisfy kings and kaisers forced an unnatural state upon the earth. One for which hundreds of millions are paying for.

What will anger me is if Iraq dissects apart people will use it as proof that ultimate failure came true just to justify their inability to analyze correctly. If Iraq stays whole it will defy history's sense of organization. But if it creates new borders, then is the natural course. It's not failure. Our mission was clear.

Even in pre-colonial Africa where there were no "tribes," people separated into distinct communities of family and friends.


There is too much bad blood..And no Romeo and Juliet around to show them the error of their feud. And I don't see the existing government sticking around as it is for very long. For the citizens of that part of the world, religion is not part of their lives..it is their lives. And they work best under a theocracy. It can be a democratic theorcracy, but they will always turn to their religious leaders, and it is only natural that their religious leaders also be their governmental leaders.

This is the uphill struggle Christianity did not have to tackle and this is why too many people have trouble identifying the hurdles. Even when Constantinople created the first Christian empire there was a sense of separation. And the Catholic Church was always at odds with "devine" kings. Islam's world has very distinct hurdles. Unfortunately, Muhammad wasn't just an activist. He became a judge, a general, and then his own soveriegn. Islam began as government once it was established in Mecca. Where are Muslims in this region supposed to easily go from here? There's a reason that religion and civilization gets healthier the further away from this region it gets.
 
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must be an Air Force thing because in the Army we believe that you earned the rank and you deserve to be called by it. I, for one, would never dream of calling a SSG, SFC, MSG, 1SG or SGM, "sarge". However, i will and have on numerous occasions called a 2LT, "dumbass" :lol:

I never minded being called sarge by my soldiers. I didn't let officers get away with it, unless he earned the right to call me sarge, that is. I allowed a couple of my platoon leaders call me sarge; another had his **** together enough to get away with calling me by my first name.
 

OscarB63

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Women cannot serve in combat arms units. That is the point I'm making. IMO, there shouldn't be any co-ed units in the Army, or Marine Corps. They should be all male, or all female. BTW, what's your branch of arms?

I am currently branched MP.
 

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to be fair, caine, our military is no more immune to racism than the civilian world. It does exist in the military as it does in the civilian world. I do believe that the military works very very hard, however, punish those whoare guilty of, and to do all they can to minimize it.

Well, yeah, I guess you are right....

My Brother worked in a support unit full of racist ass black people. So I guess there is racism in the military.
 

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Ap, if you truly think that little of these soldiers, I see very little hope in you ever changing your mind. People can and do control themselves when it is necessary. Obviously, since gay men and women have been serving quietly for centuries, the problematic incidents have been pretty low. So your low opinion of our soldiers seems incorrect.

I don't hold a low opinion of those soldiers. I'm only speaking from personal experience. I've known many 18-25 y/o's that I would have trusted my life to, but there's no way I would trust most of them with my sister.
 

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Which means you were Army or Air Force. Marines and Sailors believe in promotions.

lol....

The Navy's ranks are so ****ed up.. I would hate to imagine actually calling a sailor by their rank.


BTW: Too many ****ing syllables in some of these ranks to make it pracitcal to call everyone by their full rank.

SERGEANT FIRST CLASS YES SERGEANT FIRST CLASS!!!!
YEARRRRRP!

:rofl
 
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The military can and does infringe on soldiers's basic constitutional rights, everday. Soldiers don't have the same right to free speech that a civilian does. Soldiers's don't have the same right to associate with who they want, or the right to be a part of any club, or orginization they choose.

The 9th Circus has no authority to dictate to the military what it's regulations can, or cannot, make illegal. nor should it. The military being regulated by the judicial branch would be the most dysfunctional way to go about raunning a standing army. It would be plmb nuts and thousands of American would suffer, because of it.
DADT is not part of the UCMJ. This makes your argument about jurisdiction irrelevant. If the court was trying to change the UCMJ, I would have to agree with you, but we are not dealing with that.
 

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DADT is not part of the UCMJ. This makes your argument about jurisdiction irrelevant. If the court was trying to change the UCMJ, I would have to agree with you, but we are not dealing with that.

No, it's not. However, it is a part of DoD regulations, which no court in the land has jurisdiction over.
 

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I see, thank you for your service.

My best friend was an MP. He covered my ass a couple times at Ft. Polk.

Well, now the courts say you can talk about such things openly! *drumbeat*

Thank you folks, I'll be here all week.

Anyway, I think the next year ago will be big in terms of gay rights. With a few states legalizing gay marriage and now (probably, I suppose SCOTUS might weigh in?) the military moving in this direction, more people will start to see that THE GAY AGENDA is just a fabrication of the far-right and that THE SCARY GAYS are just regular folks.

Also: It's only a matter of time anyway.
 
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MSgt

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lol....

The Navy's ranks are so ****ed up.. I would hate to imagine actually calling a sailor by their rank.


BTW: Too many ****ing syllables in some of these ranks to make it pracitcal to call everyone by their full rank.

SERGEANT FIRST CLASS YES SERGEANT FIRST CLASS!!!!
YEARRRRRP!

:rofl

There are abbreviations. None of which reduces the rank to a former rank. A Sergeant is a Sergeant. No matter how many stripes, soldiers are always simply "Sergeant."

And "Sergeant First Class" may be why soldiers reduce it to "Sergeant." It is far more practical to call some one Sergeant and then Staff Sergeant and then Gunnery Sergeant (or Gunz) and then Master Sergeant (or Top) and then Master Guns.
 
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