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"Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

apdst

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There is no measurement that has 99% of any branch in agreement on the issue.
Overwhelmingly, those with experience serving with someone they know to be gay found that it did not cause a problem. You're big on experience, right? This includes front-line combat units.

You're not stupid, but you're a smaller minority than you think and if you'd served with someone you know to be gay there's a statistically high chance that you would have found it to be no big deal.

But hey, good job on keeping the whole persecution complex going.

99% of the ground unit vets on this forum tell the same story. Most soldiers and marines, that serve in combat arms units say the same thing we are saying. The Commandant of The Marine Corps and the Army Chief of Staff says what we're saying.

I guess you know more about it than we do? We know you're right, but we're just a buncha homophobes? Am I close?

I'm sorry, but civilian polls and annecdotes are evidence enough to trump what the people who have been there and done that are saying.
 

StillBallin75

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Have you served in the military at all?

99% of the Army and Marine Corps vets, plus the one, or two Air Force and Navy vets that have seen actual action, or served in some SF role tell you one thing, but ya'll constantly say we're wrong and drag out the same ole lame ass arguments and speculations. We're all just stupid, or what?

Have you met 99% of Army and Marine Corps vets? Does your personal experience somehow trump a stastistically significant survey? I can gather various news articles describing the experience of combat vets in the Army, Marine Corps, and SF who say that serving with gays isn't a problem. You seem to think that anecdotes somehow are more informative than data. Also, just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean that opinion is based in reality.

From the lips of the people who conducted the survey itself:
Those concerns are "driven by misperceptions and stereotypes about what it would mean if gay service members were allowed to be 'open' about their sexual orientation," the report's authors concluded. "Repeatedly, we heard service members express the view that 'open' homosexuality would lead to widespread and overt displays of effeminacy among men, homosexual promiscuity, harassment and unwelcome advances within units, invasions of personal privacy, and a small overall erosion of standards of conduct, unit cohesion and morality."

Like I said, over 80% of ground combat vets who had actually had working experience with gays had positive or neutral experiences. The sentiments expressed above are indicative of people prejudging and stereotyping, rather than being based on any objective knowledge of what working with gays would actually be like.
 

StillBallin75

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the problem isn't when there are two gay men, it's when there are three; and two of them are in a relationship... until one of them decides to cheat on his partner with a third.

and so on and so forth. the problems that come with the introduction of sexuality into a unit are legion, from jealousy, to cliqueishness, to backbiting, to distraction.

Wouldn't this still be a problem even if homosexuals were "secretly" rather than "openly" gay? (In other words, wouldn't this still be a problem whether or not DADT is in place? Gays have exceptionally good gaydar).

Also, would or would this not be a violation of the UCMJ's provisions regarding fraternization within the ranks?
 

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99% of the ground unit vets on this forum tell the same story. Most soldiers and marines, that serve in combat arms units say the same thing we are saying. The Commandant of The Marine Corps and the Army Chief of Staff says what we're saying.

I guess you know more about it than we do? We know you're right, but we're just a buncha homophobes? Am I close?

I'm sorry, but civilian polls and annecdotes are evidence enough to trump what the people who have been there and done that are saying.

The poll I'm talking about was done by the military and surveyed military personnel. Yes, a majority of combat units agree with you... unless they have actual experience serving with people they know to be gay, at which point they say it doesn't matter. My opinion is based on those of people with the actual experience of serving with homosexuals.

Again with the persecution complex. It's funny that you talk about anecdotes while spouting your own. Everything I've said comes from actual studies.
 

apdst

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Have you met 99% of Army and Marine Corps vets? Does your personal experience somehow trump a stastistically significant survey? I can gather various news articles describing the experience of combat vets in the Army, Marine Corps, and SF who say that serving with gays isn't a problem. You seem to think that anecdotes somehow are more informative than data. Also, just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean that opinion is based in reality.

From the lips of the people who conducted the survey itself:


Like I said, over 80% of ground combat vets who had actually had working experience with gays had positive or neutral experiences. The sentiments expressed above are indicative of people prejudging and stereotyping, rather than being based on any objective knowledge of what working with gays would actually be like.

That's where the trick math comes into play. The percentage of, "ground combat vets", who have had, "working experience", with openly gay soldiers is very small.
 

apdst

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The poll I'm talking about was done by the military and surveyed military personnel. Yes, a majority of combat units agree with you... unless they have actual experience serving with people they know to be gay, at which point they say it doesn't matter. My opinion is based on those of people with the actual experience of serving with homosexuals.

Again with the persecution complex. It's funny that you talk about anecdotes while spouting your own. Everything I've said comes from actual studies.

I guess the vets on this board are just stupid, right? That, or we're lieing.
 

StillBallin75

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That's where the trick math comes into play. The percentage of, "ground combat vets", who have had, "working experience", with openly gay soldiers is very small.

Sure they might be a small percentage, but they are still there. However the large difference in attitudes is rather interesting, no? Wonder what's at work there...
 
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apdst

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Sure they might be a small percentage, but they are still there. However the large difference in attitudes is rather interesting, no?

You're just trying to trick people into thinking that most people in the combat arms think like you do and it's just not true.
 

StillBallin75

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You're just trying to trick people into thinking that most people in the combat arms think like you do and it's just not true.

I never said anything like that. Obviously most people in the combat arms don't (IIRC 60% of infantry Marines were against). But the small percentage of people who have actually interacted with gays do. Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?
 

apdst

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I never said anything like that. Obviously most people in the combat arms don't (IIRC 60% of infantry Marines were against). But the small percentage of people who have actually interacted with gays do. Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?

What I wonder, is how you can totally ignore what people are telling you and basing your opinion completely on a poll, or something.
 

StillBallin75

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What I wonder, is how you can totally ignore what people are telling you and basing your opinion completely on a poll, or something.

I've heard people on both sides of the issue, so no i'm not ignoring what people are telling me. In addition it was not a "poll" but an comprehensive survey. Polls and Surveys are an attempt to gauge and know more about REALITY. The REALITY is that the majority of combat arms ground troops are against gays openly serving, I don't deny that. REALITY also states that the vast majority of combat vets who have experience serving with gays see no need for such a policy. Why is there such a huge difference?

A poll or survey is going to give you a much more comprehensive and holistic view of the situation. I don't understand why you think your own hearsay and personal experience somehow trumps the personal experiences of many other people taken together. If everyone who lives around me, and all my friends and relatives, say "Obama rocks, his is the best Prez-o-dent evaaaa!" but the polls say that his approval rating isn't that hot, am i really supposed to believe the former over the latter? Similar situation.
 

apdst

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I've heard people on both sides of the issue, so no i'm not ignoring what people are telling me. In addition it was not a "poll" but an comprehensive survey. Polls and Surveys are an attempt to gauge and know more about REALITY. The REALITY is that the majority of combat arms ground troops are against gays openly serving, I don't deny that. REALITY also states that the vast majority of combat vets who have experience serving with gays see no need for such a policy. Why is there such a huge difference?

A poll or survey is going to give you a much more comprehensive and holistic view of the situation. I don't understand why you think your own hearsay and personal experience somehow trumps the personal experiences of many other people taken together. If everyone who lives around me, and all my friends and relatives, say "Obama rocks, his is the best Prez-o-dent evaaaa!" but the polls say that his approval rating isn't that hot, am i really supposed to believe the former over the latter? Similar situation.

The people on your side have a totally different experience than the people on the other side. The biggest difference being, the people on the opposite side of the issue from you are the ones--for the most part--with the most experience in that type of environment. The only evidence that you're able to produce that counters this first hand experience, is a poll, with dubious numbers. Plus, we're all homophobes and bigots for not agreeing with your side of the argument.
 

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What I wonder, is how you can totally ignore what people are telling you and basing your opinion completely on a poll, or something.

Plenty of people have given you first hand experience working with openly gay personnel and provided polls that indicate strongly that even most combat troops who have actually worked with openly gay personnel did not find it to cause any issues.

And some times it is prudent to ignore what others tell you. Fear of the unknown can lead people to begin to believe things that are not true or, at the very least, have no evidence to support that they will likely come to pass. The same things were said by experienced combat personnel when the military was desegregated. The military was able to survive past that with few issues. The military will survive past this, especially since the homosexuals are already serving in those units now.

You have no actual proof that allowing gays to serve openly will affect unit morale or cohesion. From what you have said, you haven't even worked with openly gay military personnel. Unless you actually have and have seen major issues because of this, then you have no actual experience to back up your "fears". You are simply arguing based on your fears of what might happen.
 

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Plenty of people have given you first hand experience working with openly gay personnel and provided polls that indicate strongly that even most combat troops who have actually worked with openly gay personnel did not find it to cause any issues.

And some times it is prudent to ignore what others tell you. Fear of the unknown can lead people to begin to believe things that are not true or, at the very least, have no evidence to support that they will likely come to pass. The same things were said by experienced combat personnel when the military was desegregated. The military was able to survive past that with few issues. The military will survive past this, especially since the homosexuals are already serving in those units now.

You have no actual proof that allowing gays to serve openly will affect unit morale or cohesion. From what you have said, you haven't even worked with openly gay military personnel. Unless you actually have and have seen major issues because of this, then you have no actual experience to back up your "fears". You are simply arguing based on your fears of what might happen.

All but one of the ground unit vets on this forum tell a different story than you do.

And some times it is prudent to ignore what others tell you.

If 8 people tell you that you're ass is on fire and 2 people tell you that it's not. Who you gonna believe?
 
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First, do you want to back up your claim that these soldiers only claim to be gay so that they could get out under DADT? No, thats alright, I know you can't. And as much as it happens in the military, its an exception not a rule.

Second, are you seriously insulting gay/lesbian men and women in uniform as being sub-par translators???

Lastly, every soldier counts.

I have actually wondered if anybody used the Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy to get out of the military... I remember Pauly Shore tried to do it in that movie. OMG I can't stand Pauly Shore.. he was so annoying and unfunny.
 

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All but one of the ground unit vets on this forum tell a different story than you do.

None of the combat vets have actually admitted to working with openly gay personnel, that I can recall. And if one did, and they still think that allowing gays to serve openly will affect morale/unit cohesion, they have not given the exact reasons why they believe this or what the circumstances are that led them to such a conclusion based just on them working with the openly gay personnel.
 

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The biggest difference being, the people on the opposite side of the issue from you are the ones--for the most part--with the most experience in that type of environment.

They apparently also have the most experience in not having known much about gays, instead relying on stereotypes and prejudice for benchmarks, thus, their opinion should not be taken at face value because the information their opinion is based on is incomplete:

"Repeatedly, we heard service members express the view that 'open' homosexuality would lead to widespread and overt displays of effeminacy among men, homosexual promiscuity, harassment and unwelcome advances within units,

The only evidence that you're able to produce that counters this first hand experience, is a poll, with dubious numbers.
Statistically significant survey gathering an over 30% response rate = dubious? Can you prove how the numbers are dubious? Do you know anything about statistics? Seems numbers are only dubious when you disagree with them.

Plus, we're all homophobes and bigots for not agreeing with your side of the argument.

Pretty much. I have no problem with calling a spade a spade. Until you can actually prove to me that the existence of open gays in the military actually contributes to a decline in unit cohesion, it seems bigotry and prejudice serves as the basis for your opinion. The experience of every other nation that has undergone this process (including our allies Canada, the UK and Israel, who possess militaries just as professional as ours supposedly is and possess a common culture with ours), runs counter to your opinion. In any case DADT has been repealed and which side of the argument is correct will soon be revealed.

And even if it does decrease unit cohesion, you have to wonder, is it the gay's fault that unit cohesion has decreased? Or is it the homophobe's fault for not being a professional and realizing that gayness has no bearing on job performance?
 
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Seems to me that you could have looked at what I said –“they may have done that to get out.” – before you asked me to back up a statement that I didn’t make.

I believe that I said that a boy in a dress wouldn't get much interpreting done in the Middle East.

I don’t know where you served but in the Air Force in the bomb dump about 15% of our guys didn’t count for much.

When people complain about DADT or gay people in general, why do they just complain about gay men and NEVER women?

I have noticed it in all these threads... People seem to worry more about gay men serving openly more than gay women... I think it's weird, espically since this policy kicked both men and women out.
 

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All but one of the ground unit vets on this forum tell a different story than you do.

I see. And most of you have worked with gays? And the few of you taken together are somehow a representative sample size?
 

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None of the combat vets have actually admitted to working with openly gay personnel, that I can recall. And if one did, and they still think that allowing gays to serve openly will affect morale/unit cohesion, they have not given the exact reasons why they believe this or what the circumstances are that led them to such a conclusion based just on them working with the openly gay personnel.

You're juuuuust about to figure it out.

The problem isn't with gays serving openly. We've already explained to you what problems are going to arise. You swear up-n-down that we don't know what we're talking about, so there's no need to get back into it.
 

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I have actually wondered if anybody used the Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy to get out of the military... I remember Pauly Shore tried to do it in that movie. OMG I can't stand Pauly Shore.. he was so annoying and unfunny.

It did happen prior to 9/11 a lot. We had a few straight guys/girls that signed paperwork in '99 to get out when school got too rough for them. By the 4th or 5th one, our Master Chief said that anyone else in our class that said that they wanted to sign the paperwork was going to have to call their mother up in his office, in front of him and explain to her exactly why the person was getting out of the military. No more signing was done in my class.

It wasn't long after that or possibly even during that time, the military started expecting people to actual prove that they were homosexual to get out that way. I'm not exactly sure what that proof had to be, but I knew at least one other person, who really was a lesbian, who was able to sign paperwork to be put out under DADT. I do know that she had to go to medical and EO a lot while she was getting out, so I think that she had to talk to someone in medical and someone in EO to prove that she really was a lesbian.
 

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Plenty of people have given you first hand experience working with openly gay personnel and provided polls that indicate strongly that even most combat troops who have actually worked with openly gay personnel did not find it to cause any issues.

bingo. because DADT was in effect.

You have no actual proof that allowing gays to serve openly will affect unit morale or cohesion.

well hells bells, i have no 'proof' (having never subjected it to experimentation) that bullets wouldn't bounce off my chest. that doesn't mean i'm going to let you blast me.
 

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admitting open homosexuals reduces cohesion. reduced cohesion causes casuaties. each kia costs the military more than what - 10, 15x the amount he's complaining about?

Do you have proof of this... a study or something, because the petagon's study is in disagreement with your statement
 

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None of the combat vets have actually admitted to working with openly gay personnel, that I can recall.

:) then you should go back and read my posts.
 

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You're juuuuust about to figure it out.

The problem isn't with gays serving openly. We've already explained to you what problems are going to arise. You swear up-n-down that we don't know what we're talking about, so there's no need to get back into it.

What is that? That you guys are basing your beliefs about the problems off of fear of possible consequences, rather than actual experience with working with openly gay personnel in combat units.
 
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