Donald Trump grants clemency to 143 people (not himself or family members) in final hours

[Rawley]

If he found credible evidence that Obama did something illegal, yes. Do I believe it will happen? No.

Good to hear.

 

[Top Cat]

 

[pamak]

Typically, there is a paper trail. But it does not legally have have to go through the Office of the Pardon Attorney. It can be made in his office with just Trump and someone else (if it has any chance of being legal, a lawyer and someone semi-trustworthy present) filling it out, dating it (notarizing) or even orally (would definitely need a witness). Those certainly would be easier to challenge, but not impossible to get away with.

I understand, but even if the paper trail does not follow the normal route, it will still be available to the Biden adminstration. I do not see how just a president and a single other person (or even few people) will be the only ones involved. I assume that there will be a quite extensive process of filing and recording such decision to be available to any future investigator who may decide to open a case against a person who has been pardoned.

I think it is quite possible that Trump chose not to pardon himself and his family because such move will make it harder for any of them to re-enter the political scene as a challenger in 2024, and because he is reasonably confident that he has enough public support to avoid conviction since some in the jury of a criminal trial will choose to exonerate Trump and his close family members no matter what evindence any prosecutor will present in court. If this is Trump's thought process, then a pardon of family members comes mostly with political consequences and no real benefits.

 

[Top Cat]

I am literally going to the store to buy champagne.

 

[Rexedgar]

If Joe Exotic was secretly pardoned, I am willing to forgive Trump for everything. The insane Tweeting; The conspiracy theories; The botched pandemic response and hundreds of thousands of additional dead; The election interference in Georgia and threatening the Secretary of State; whipping up a lynch mob to perform the Capitol Hill putsch....everything. Just free Joe Exotic.

What’s Bannon’s liability at the state level, Counselor?

 

[roguenuke]

I understand, but even if the paper trail does not follow the normal route, it will still be available to the Biden adminstration. I do not see how just a president and a single other person (or even few people) will be the only ones involved. I assume that there will be a quite extensive process of filing and recording such decision to be available to any future investigator who may decide to open a case against a person who has been pardoned.

I think it is quite possible that Trump chose not to pardon himself and his family because such move will make it harder for any of them to re-enter the political scene as a challenger in 2024, and because he is reasonably confident that he has enough public support to avoid conviction since some in the jury of a criminal trial will choose to exonerate Trump and his close family members no matter what evindence any prosecutor will present in court. If this is Trump's thought process, then a pardon of family members comes mostly with political consequences and no real benefits.

Like some of the links have shown, a President can theoretically pardon someone orally (not written out at all) if there is some other evidence of that pardon, say a video tape with a time stamp that they can take with them, keep). Or they can simply write out a pardon with the necessary time, dates, notary, witnesses, without actually filing a copy with anyone. The only ones who would know would be those involved (kinda like when Trump does NDAs).

I'm actually not saying that he necessarily did this, especially not recently, but it is still possible that he did it. It is even possible that such a pardon could be considered legal, particularly if they got some sort of recording of it occurring.

It is but another reason though that we should pass a Constitutional Amendment with serious limitations on the Presidential pardon power.

 

[pamak]

Like some of the links have shown, a President can theoretically pardon someone orally (not written out at all) if there is some other evidence of that pardon, say a video tape with a time stamp that they can take with them, keep). Or they can simply write out a pardon with the necessary time, dates, notary, witnesses, without actually filing a copy with anyone. The only ones who would know would be those involved (kinda like when Trump does NDAs).

I'm actually not saying that he necessarily did this, especially not recently, but it is still possible that he did it. It is even possible that such a pardon could be considered legal, particularly if they got some sort of recording of it occurring.

It is but another reason though that we should pass a Constitutional Amendment with serious limitations on the Presidential pardon power.

I am curious to see the link becauue I find hard to believe that there will be no need to file a copy with anyone. An NDA agreement may have terms that are not available to the public but even the lay public is aware that there is an NDA agreement between two parties.

 

[roguenuke]

I am curious to see the link becasue I find hard to believe that there will be no need to file a copy with anyone. an NDA agreement may have terms that are not available to the public but even the lay public is aware that there is an NDA agreement between two parties.

I posted 2 on this thread that said that he could issue a pardon in person, orally, without any copies filed, and, although it would likely face scrutiny and even challenge, it could (as in there is a probability depending on other factors) still pass the muster because there are no legal limitations concerning Presidential pardons except, cannot be for impeachment, are only for federal crimes, and must come after the crime itself occurred (cannot pardon someone for something they have not done). And of course must be issued by the President.

 

[pamak]

I posted 2 on this thread that said that he could issue a pardon in person, orally, without any copies filed, and, although it would likely face scrutiny and even challenge, it could (as in there is a probability depending on other factors) still pass the muster because there are no legal limitations concerning Presidential pardons except, cannot be for impeachment, are only for federal crimes, and must come after the crime itself occurred (cannot pardon someone for something they have not done). And of course must be issued by the President.

The links I saw does not give details

What Donald Trump Can — And Can't — Do with the Pardon Power

There's one presidential power Trump can still use with wide discretion until Inauguration Day: the pardon power.

time.com

I just read the second link which does mention the possibiity

Fact Check: Can President Trump Issue Secret Pardons?

In the final hours of his presidency, Donald Trump is expected to grant close to 100 pardons. Some fear he can issue secret pardons to his family and friends.

www.newsweek.com

But it does indicate that if there is not any form of conventional filing

"There would be no way to prove it was issued on a certain date in an official capacity," Tribe said. "If invoked at the time an indictment or prosecution is brought, that would open the possibility for a Constitutional test of whether secret pardons are permitted."

So, this is another "what if" that can create a constitutional question regarding the validity of a pardon issued in a way that has never been issued before because even the second link mentions

"We have never had secret pardons and the whole idea of a pardon is that it is a public document,"

So, I guess the claim is that Trump can try to issue a pardon in the way that is described in the second link but its constitutionality is uncertain.

 

[Cope]

Stop projecting. Biden is not obsessed with money and power like the one term mistake. Biden is the opposite of him in nearly every way.

I hate to break it to you, but they are ALL obsessed with the money and the power ...



Yes, even them.

 

[roguenuke]

The links I saw does not give details

What Donald Trump Can — And Can't — Do with the Pardon Power

There's one presidential power Trump can still use with wide discretion until Inauguration Day: the pardon power.

time.com

I just read the second link which does mention the possibiity

Fact Check: Can President Trump Issue Secret Pardons?

In the final hours of his presidency, Donald Trump is expected to grant close to 100 pardons. Some fear he can issue secret pardons to his family and friends.

www.newsweek.com

But it does indicate that if there is not any form of conventional filing

"There would be no way to prove it was issued on a certain date in an official capacity," Tribe said. "If invoked at the time an indictment or prosecution is brought, that would open the possibility for a Constitutional test of whether secret pardons are permitted."

So, this is another "what if" that can create a constitutional question regarding the validity of a pardon issued in a way that has never been issued before because even the second link mentions

"We have never had secret pardons and the whole idea of a pardon is that it is a public document,"

So, I guess the claim is that Trump can try to issue a pardon in the way that is described in the second link but its constitutionality is uncertain.

Like I said, they seem to forget that there could be time/date stamped recordings to prove it happened. That wouldn't require that many people with today's technology. And I have no doubt that such pardons would (and should) be challenged and may not survive (I found it interesting that there have been pardons that have been struck down by a next President if there was question about legitimacy but that could definitely have been harder to prove back then than now).

 

[Pound4abrown]

Feel bad for this schmo, no Pardon for you.

I read that he had a limo waiting to take him home.
I sure hope that was wrong.

 

[pamak]

Like I said, they seem to forget that there could be time/date stamped recordings to prove it happened. That wouldn't require that many people with today's technology. And I have no doubt that such pardons would (and should) be challenged and may not survive (I found it interesting that there have been pardons that have been struck down by a next President if there was question about legitimacy but that could definitely have been harder to prove back then than now).

You can time date stamp whatever you want with whatever date you want with today's technology. And it is not just the issue of date. The other professor in the link mentions also the issue that a pardon was issued in an official capacity ( There would be no way to prove it was issued on a certain date in an official capacity)
And the first legal expert in the link who mentions the possibility of having a witness to issue a secret pardon also mentions that " "We have never had secret pardons and the whole idea of a pardon is that it is a public document." So, if the court accepts such principle then it will not permit a secret pardon regardless of time stamps or witnesses. Just because the constitution does not foresee every scenario, it does not mean that somebody can always get away with doing something that is not explicitly forbiden by the constitution.

 

[iguanaman]

I hate to break it to you, but they are ALL obsessed with the money and the power ...



Yes, even them.

I should not have to remind you that the one term mistake was ONLY about money and power. Biden is nothing like that.

 

[roguenuke]

You can time date stamp whatever you want with whatever date you want with todays technology. And it is not just the issue of date. The other person in the link mentions also the issue that a pardon was issued in an official capacity ( There would be no way to prove it was issued on a certain date in an official capacity)
And the same person who mentions the possibility of having a witness also mentions that " "We have never had secret pardons and the whole idea of a pardon is that it is a public document" and if the courts accept such thing then they will not permit a secret pardon. Just because the consttution does not foresee every scenario, it does not mean that somebody an always get away by ding something that is not explicitly forbiden by the constitution.

We have technology that can date pretty well when a video was taken/made. It takes some pretty serious editing to be able to remove all evidence of a change to the date on a video, when it was made, particularly if such a video was downloaded onto a computer at some time (which would also provide a time stamp).

The Constitution doesn't foresee every scenario, but that is why we have a SCOTUS. Unfortunately there is certainly some bias even within our SCOTUS that could say that because the Constitution states the only restrictions on Presidential Pardons involve having to be a crime against the US (federal) and cannot be for Impeachment, that anything else is allowed. I have no doubt that any such pardons will be challenged if they do exist. I do have doubt that they would automatically be ruled invalid by any and every SCOTUS.

To me, this is a good reason to better ensure the Pardon power is not taken advantage of, abused.

 

[avatar]

Gifts that keep on giving.

Donald Trump pardons: Steve Bannon, Elliott Broidy, Kwame Kilpatrick (usatoday.com)


WASHINGTON – President Donald Trump, who has repeatedly used his clemency authority as a political tool rather than an act of mercy, issued a final wave of pardons and commutations on his last night in office, delivering relief for a mix of beneficiaries that included former strategist Stephen Bannon, Republican Party and Trump fundraiser Elliott Broidy, and former Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, found guilty in 2013 of corruption charges.

He granted pardons to 73 people and commuted the sentences of another 70 people, according to a news release from the White House.

Several high-profile figures received pardons, including:

• Former Republican House member Rick Renzi of Arizona, convicted in 2013 of extortion, bribery, insurance fraud, money laundering, and racketeering. Renzi left prison in 2017.
• Former Rep. Randall “Duke” Cunningham, R-Calif., who was released from prison in 2013 after serving eight years for charges of bribery, fraud, and tax evasion.
• Dwayne Michael Carter Jr., the rapper known as Lil Wayne, who pleaded guilty to possession of a firearm and ammunition by a convicted felon.
• Broidy, who pleaded guilty to acting as an unregistered foreign agent and accepting money from Chinese and Malaysian interests to lobby the Trump administration.
• Bannon, who was awaiting trial in Manhattan on federal fraud charges tied to a border wall fundraising effort.

But not a single pardon to the stupid people who threw their lives away breaking into the Capitol and waving at the security cameras.

 

[pamak]

We have technology that can date pretty well when a video was taken/made. It takes some pretty serious editing to be able to remove all evidence of a change to the date on a video, when it was made, particularly if such a video was downloaded onto a computer at some time (which would also provide a time stamp).

The Constitution doesn't foresee every scenario, but that is why we have a SCOTUS. Unfortunately there is certainly some bias even within our SCOTUS that could say that because the Constitution states the only restrictions on Presidential Pardons involve having to be a crime against the US (federal) and cannot be for Impeachment, that anything else is allowed. I have no doubt that any such pardons will be challenged if they do exist. I do have doubt that they would automatically be ruled invalid by any and every SCOTUS.

To me, this is a good reason to better ensure the Pardon power is not taken advantage of, abused.

I can agree with the bold part cosndering the structure of the Supreme Court. I saw two judges (IIRC Alito and Thomas) who even tried to support Trump's argument that he had absolute immunity, so I am prepared to hear even absurd SCOTUS justifications of abusing the presidential power

 

[Cope]

I should not have to remind you that the one term mistake was ONLY about money and power. Biden is nothing like that.

Biden may well be the better person but for you to think that he isn't obsessed with the money and power of the office is ludicrous, every single politician is obsessed with money and power.

 

[ouch]

Well, if you want to see corruption, well you got your President now. Already sold his office as VP, now he will hike up his prices as President.

Formally known as Trump's trade wars.

 

[ouch]

Ain’t it just like Obama, Clinton, who set the president of pardoning the most agregec client In America.

Some were problematic.

 

[ouch]

Biden may well be the better person but for you to think that he isn't obsessed with the money and power of the office is ludicrous, every single politician is obsessed with money and power.

Mostly true, until the likes of Trump shrouded in golden backdrops soared beyond his corrupt obsession for branding his name, money and power.

 

[ouch]

So are people aware that Trump could actually have issued "secret" pardons? That really isn't something supposed to be funny either. He could have given pardons to several different people, including family and friends, who are not currently under indictment and they don't have to produce them until later in the process.

I honestly think someone should test the waters here and, if they have any charges ready for the Trumps or their allies, bring some of them up. See if anyone produces a blank/blanket pardon from him.

What Donald Trump Can — And Can't — Do with the Pardon Power

There's one presidential power Trump can still use with wide discretion until Inauguration Day: the pardon power.

time.com

Then we need to close these pardon loopholes, stop such practices, through Amendment. Push it hard, explaining to the public why we need such changes implemented, the great importance of not allowing anyone to abuse the pardon power.

I heard about that a few days ago and cringed. He doesn't even have to write any of his secret pardons to come down. Something is very seriously flawed with this pardon crap. This Biden Admin needs work hard changing the powers and the wrongful protection of our presidents!

 

[ouch]

But not a single pardon to the stupid people who threw their lives away breaking into the Capitol and waving at the security cameras.

Not yet. Hope it remains that way.

 

[mrjurrs]

Careful. We don't know what 'pocket pardons' were issued. It is rumored that bill barr walked out with one. A pocket pardon would not come to light until a charged person uses it to avoid prosecution.

 

[iguanaman]

Careful. We don't know what 'pocket pardons' were issued. It is rumored that bill barr walked out with one. A pocket pardon would not come to light until a charged person uses it to avoid prosecution.

Barr betrayed the one term mistake by not supporting his lies about the election. I seriously doubt he got any favors from him.