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Domestic Spying

oldreliable67 said:
aps & python,

Here is a really simple question for y'all: if the Dems disagree with the administration's understanding of what the AUMF authorizes, why don't they present clarifying legislation telling the administration that its interpretation is incorrect? This would enable the Senate to vote on whether it thinks listening to calls from al Qaeda to the US is a necessary and proper measure to prevent another attack.



No, it doesn't. Your statement is explicit proof that you are not sufficiently familiar with the issues. Please catch up by reading some of the other threads noted above, then try again.

There was no discussion of domestic spying in the drafting of the AUMF - according to people on the Senate committees (and no, I'm gonna dig up a reference cause I don't have time).

Are you trying to suggest that the AUMF from a week after 9/11 gives authorization to circumvent FISA for the rest of this war with no end?
 
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Gill said:
BINGO!!! You get the kewpie doll. The Dems would rather die than vote on this issue. They know the American public would never forgive them if a terrorist attack happened that this program could have stopped. Remember the vote on the immediate pullout from Iraq? They all screamed to pull out but when it came to time to vote, they backed off.

I have one question....does anyone know of a single democrat that has called for the IMMEDIATE halt to the NSA wiretapping program? I sure haven't heard of any.

The problem is wiretapping outside the law. The committe wants to work with the administration to find away to do it legally, and the administration tagline is: if we talk about it, we are helping the enemy.
 
easyt65 said:
I was listening to Roberto Gonzales being grilled by Congress, and i found it funny. Here was Senator Leahy, who has already been thrown off one committee, BTW, for leaking information,telling Gonzales that he wanted to know if anyone in the White House had planned to use wiretaps at any time prior to Sept. 18th, when Congress gave bush the authority 'to do whatever he had to do against Al Qaeda' (Not MY words - Leahy's!).

The 1st thing I found funny was that Senator Leahy was grilling Gonzales about something he thought might be inappropriate or criminal. As I mentioned, Leahy had already been kicked off a committee once before in the past for leaking confidential/classified information. :roll:

Why don't you get your facts straight?
Leahy was never kicked off the Senate Intelligence Committe.

In 1987, Leahy resigned from his position as Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee after an investigation into an alleged leak to a reporter regarding classified information. Other allegations have been made about other leaks, but the investigation was never made public. In 2005, Leahy was critical of the George W. Bush administration's unprecedented use of the National Security Agency to spy on US citizens without obtaining a warrant. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) allows for up to 3 days to obtain a warrant, after the fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Leahy

easyt65 said:
The 2nd thing I find funny is that Leahy himself stated in his question that Congress had approved Bush to do whatever he had to do against Al Qaeda on Sept 18th! So, Bush had the approval of Congress to do whatever he so saw fit to do, what was required, to combat Al Qaeda and protect this country!

Myth 2: Congress approved the NSA spying program when it authorized military force against Al Qaeda.

This argument cannot be squared with existing law, which provides that even when Congress declares war--a much more formal and grave step than an authorization to use force--the President has only fifteen days to conduct warrantless surveillance. The Al Qaeda authorization says not one word about wiretapping Americans. In addition, when asked why the Administration did not seek to amend FISA to permit this program, the Attorney General explained that he consulted with several members of Congress but that they told him it would be "difficult, if not impossible," to obtain permission. You can't argue that you didn't ask because Congress would have said no, but that without asking, and without Congress saying so, it actually said yes.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060220/cole

easyt65 said:
3rd thing I found funny was that Leahy demanded to know if Bush began his wire taps, or even had been discussing them, prior to Sept 18th, inferring that the power conduct these Wire Taps was a power the President had to receive from Congress, that it was a power Congress even HAD in order to give to the President! :doh

Myth 5: The President as Commander in Chief cannot be regulated by Congress.

The Administration's ultimate defense is that even if Bush broke the law, his constitutional authority as Commander in Chief permits him to do so at his discretion. According to the Justice Department, Congress cannot limit his choice of how to "engage the enemy." This rationale is not limited to wiretapping. On the same theory, Justice argued in 2002 that he could order torture despite a criminal statute to the contrary. It is that theory that Bush was presumably invoking when, in signing the amendment barring "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" of terrorism suspects, he said he would interpret it "in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary executive branch and as Commander in Chief."

Bush tried this theory out on the Supreme Court in the Guantanamo cases, when he argued that it would be an unconstitutional intrusion on his Commander in Chief powers to extend habeas corpus review to Guantanamo detainees. Not a single Justice on the Court accepted that radical proposition. But that hasn't stopped Bush from asserting it again. After all, when you get to say what the law is, what's a contrary Supreme Court precedent or two?
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060220/cole

easyt65 said:
The power that George Bush has invoked is mandated in/by the Constitution and has been used by numerous presidents throughout history.

Brief history Lesson:

FISA was written to clarify existing law, so any examples you use before 1978 are pointless.


easyt65 said:
Where is the rabid demand for the head of the person who leaked the existence and practice of this program to the media? Where is the outrage and the demnand for punishment for the reporter(s) who ran this story, exposing a classified project, therebyreigning in a media out of control who thinks they have the right to run any story even if it jeopardizes this country's security?!

Whoever exposed this warrentless wiretapping scandal is a hero to our country! Whoever leaked Plame, on the other hand is a coward.
 
python said:
There was no discussion of domestic spying the discussions that led the AUMF

Domestic spying? What has domestic spying got to do with this?

Python said:
Are you trying to suggest that the AUMF from a week after 9/11 gives authorization to circumvent FISA?

FISA is not being circumvented. FISA explicitly provides that it can be supplemented by statute. The AUMF provides that statute and implicity provides, according to the SC in the Hamdi decision, that the administration can pursue all activities 'fundamental and incident' to carrying out the AUMF. Among those fundamental activities is the collection of signals intelligence.
 
Everyone keeps using the term 'domestic spying', implying that the program is desighend and run to spy on Americans when the program was established and is being run to gain Intellignece on al Qaeda and or other terrorists and their collaborators. There is no argument that we believe that there are Al Qaeda cells here in the U.S.

Leahy even admitted in his question to Gonzales that congress gave Bush the power to do "anything he needed to do to go after Al Qaeda". So The question that is left is regarding the powers afforded the President, as with past Presidents, by the Constitution of the United states? I think it has already been proven and established by the use of that power by such presidents as Washington, Lincoln, FDR, and Bill Clinton. So, in my mind, there isn't much of a question there.

I think the real question has to do with Congress' desire to seize that power, to shackle the Commander in Chief from having the power to do his job in the manner and methods established and exercised by his predecessors! It is a question that hould be loudly answered by telling congress they have enough power and can not strip a President from leading and acting as Commander in Chief, especially in times of war!
 
The problem is wiretapping outside the law.
We will never agree on this point but I'm confident the SC will settle the matter in Bush's favor. The court cases I have researched make me confident of this.


The committe wants to work with the administration to find away to do it legally, and the administration tagline is: if we talk about it, we are helping the enemy.
That is because the Congress doesn't know how to keep it's mouths shut. I wouldn't be surprised if the NYT leak traced back to certain members of Congress.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Domestic spying? What has domestic spying got to do with this?



FISA is not being circumvented. FISA explicitly provides that it can be supplemented by statute. The AUMF provides that statute and implicity provides, according to the SC in the Hamdi decision, that the administration can pursue all activities 'fundamental and incident' to carrying out the AUMF. Among those fundamental activities is the collection of signals intelligence.

What does the AUMF have to do with domestic spying? That is what I am saying! The adminstration cites it as authorization for the program, when it is not.

To draw a line from AUMF, to the Hamdi decision, and say that follows the extendability provisions in FISA because of the 'fundamental and incident' clause in the AUMF - and then play it like it is black letter law and everyone should be on board with - is a bit of a stretch to say the least.
 
oldreliable67 said:
FISA is not being circumvented. FISA explicitly provides that it can be supplemented by statute. The AUMF provides that statute and implicity provides, according to the SC in the Hamdi decision, that the administration can pursue all activities 'fundamental and incident' to carrying out the AUMF. Among those fundamental activities is the collection of signals intelligence.

Wow. Let's alert the press that oldreliable has solved the question of whether the President has exceeded his authority. I'm glad that there is only one way to read the Hamdi decision. *sarcasm* You're talking like these are facts.
 
Gill said:
We will never agree on this point but I'm confident the SC will settle the matter in Bush's favor. The court cases I have researched make me confident of this.



That is because the Congress doesn't know how to keep it's mouths shut. I wouldn't be surprised if the NYT leak traced back to certain members of Congress.

With Alito on SCOTUS, I have no doubt it will pass too.

That is nice speculation on the source of the leak!

I think proper operation of the US system of government requires that Senate commitees be able to be trusted. Otherwise congressional oversight is hard to implement.
 
What does the AUMF have to do with domestic spying? That is what I am saying! The adminstration cites it as authorization for the program, when it is not.

To draw a line from AUMF, to the Hamdi decision, and say that follows the extendability provisions in FISA because of the 'fundamental and incident' clause in the AUMF - and then play it like it is black letter law and everyone should be on board with - is a bit of a stretch to say the least.
Many of the best constitutional scholars in the country disagree.
 
easyt65 said:
Relax, NY - I wasn't trying to suggest that YOU said any of that. I was just sharing my belief that I think this did start out, at least in part, and remains, in part, a politically motivated issue.

I have no problem with swnding this issue before the Supreme Court for Interprestation. I do not think any new legislation is required because, as I have posted, the Constitution already provides the power we are discussing to the President. this is not Easy's belief alone nor Bush's. Washington, lincoln, FDR, and even the 'great' Bill Clinton believed this and interpreted the Constituional as doing so.

I do not believe, however, that you can shackle the hands of the leader of our nation and then charge him with protecting and defending this nation. I believe the congress seeks to seize control of that power for themselves, taking another step forward towards making the office of President a moot position relegated to that of 'figurehead' and sort of 'PR Man'/spokesman for the all-powerful Congress/Senate.

I'm glad you cleared that up, because you quoted me, and then blasted out all of that partisan rhetoric, and I wasn't quite sure what *I* said that would prompt all of that.

I think there is so much partisanship, on both sides of the aisle, in general, that some of us are losing sight of the fact that this is a dispute between two branches of the government, the Congress and the President. Senator Spector suggested that the court review the program, and I agree that that would be the best way to resolve the dispute. He is a Republican who has said he has serious concerns about the legality of the program. This is not about Democrats having concerns, it is about some Democrats and some Republicans having concerns. I think their concerns are valid, and this issue needs to be resolved. Does that mean that I think the program is illegal? Not exactly, but I'm not convinced that it's legal either. I can see valid points on both sides. Let the court sort it out.
 
With Alito on SCOTUS, I have no doubt it will pass too.
Yes, he will help but based on past decisions, it will easily pass muster with a majority of the Justices.

That is nice speculation on the source of the leak!
There has been much talk that Rockefeller could be the source of leaks. Leahy has already been forced to resign from the committee for leaking info to the press in the past. So much for "speculation".
I think proper operation of the US system of government requires that Senate commitees be able to be trusted. Otherwise congressional oversight is hard to implement.
It takes more than members of a committee to pass a law.
 
python416 said:
What does the AUMF have to do with domestic spying? That is what I am saying! The adminstration cites it as authorization for the program, when it is not.

To draw a line from AUMF, to the Hamdi decision, and say that follows the extendability provisions in FISA because of the 'fundamental and incident' clause in the AUMF - and then play it like it is black letter law and everyone should be on board with - is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

LOL I just said the very same thing. In Hamdi, the Court pointed out that Hamdi was being detained because he was actively fighting against the United States and that by detaining him, it prevented him from going back out and fighting against the US. Now that is the definition of "force."

There is no bar to this Nation’s holding one of its own citizens as an enemy combatant. In Quirin, one of the detainees, Haupt, alleged that he was a naturalized United States citizen. 317 U.S., at 20. We held that “[c]itizens who associate themselves with the military arm of the enemy government, and with its aid, guidance and direction enter this country bent on hostile acts, are enemy belligerents within the meaning of … the law of war.” Id., at 37—38. While Haupt was tried for violations of the law of war, nothing in Quirin suggests that his citizenship would have precluded his mere detention for the duration of the relevant hostilities. See id., at 30—31. See also Lieber Code, ¶153, Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field, Gen. Order No. 100 (1863), reprinted in 2 Lieber, Miscellaneous Writings, p. 273 (contemplating, in code binding the Union Army during the Civil War, that “captured rebels” would be treated “as prisoners of war”). Nor can we see any reason for drawing such a line here. A citizen, no less than an alien, can be “part of or supporting forces hostile to the United States or coalition partners” and “engaged in an armed conflict against the United States,” Brief for Respondents 3; such a citizen, if released, would pose the same threat of returning to the front during the ongoing conflict.

In light of these principles, it is of no moment that the AUMF does not use specific language of detention. Because detention to prevent a combatant’s return to the battlefield is a fundamental incident of waging war, in permitting the use of “necessary and appropriate force,” Congress has clearly and unmistakably authorized detention in the narrow circumstances considered here.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-6696.ZO.html

Read the rationale for the Supreme Court's finding in this case. One, it specifically states that his holding is narrow. Two, they analyzed the circumstances that Hamdi was detained--he was ACTIVELY fighting against the US and by detaining him, it prevents him from going back out there and continuing to fight against us. That involves actual force. I just don't see how this limited holding can be applied to electronic surveillance, particularly when most of the calls that are being wiretapped amount to absolutely nothing.
 
aps said:
when most of the calls that are being wiretapped amount to absolutely nothing.

Irrelevant. Just one call in 10,000 that saves lives is worth it.

In Hamdi, the SC said:
In light of these principles[emphasis added], it is of no moment that the AUMF does not use specific language of detention...a fundamental incident of waging war,... "

The SC held that it did not matter that 'fundamental incidents of waging war' were not specifically listed in the AUMF. Others far more schooled in the law than I assert that it is clear that the 'principles' and 'fundamental incident of waging war' refer to the underlying principles evinced in the AUMF, while the "necessary and appropriate use of force" refers to the specifics of the Hamdi case.

Its really quite simple: if it is a 'fundamental incident of waging war', it is covered by the AUMF. Collection of signals intelligence is clearly and unequivocally fundamental to waging war. Nothing equivocal about that. Therefore, with respect to your legal opinion on the Hamdi decision: I think I'll go with the opinion of those at least somewhat more qualified, if you don't mind. (Sources noted on various other threads.)

Having said all that, I reiterate that, because of the importance of this program and the differences of opinion (no, I do not believe these are facts, they are yours, mine and others' opinions) among legal scholars as to its legality, I do hope that it finds its way to the SC.
 
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oldreliable67 said:
Irrelevant. Just one call in 10,000 that saves lives is worth it.

In Hamdi, the SC said:


The SC held that it did not matter that 'fundamental incidents of waging war' were not specifically listed in the AUMF. Others far more schooled in the law than I assert that it is clear that the 'principles' and 'fundamental incident of waging war' refer to the underlying principles evinced in the AUMF, while the "necessary and appropriate use of force" refers to the specifics of the Hamdi case.

Its really quite simple: if it is a 'fundamental incident of waging war', it is covered by the AUMF. Collection of signals intelligence is clearly and unequivocally fundamental to waging war. Nothing equivocal about that. Therefore, with respect to your legal opinion on the Hamdi decision: I think I'll go with the opinion of those at least somewhat more qualified, if you don't mind. (Sources noted on various other threads.)

Having said all that, I reiterate that, because of the importance of this program and the differences of opinion (no, I do not believe these are facts, they are yours, mine and others' opinions) among legal scholars as to its legality, I do hope that it finds its way to the SC.

You can do whatever you want, oldreliable. Considering that my opinion is the same one asserted by William Sessions, Lawrence Tribe, Philip Heymann, and the other legal scholars, I don't mind being called less qualified. LOL
 
Today's WP has article titled "Secret Court's Judges Were Warned About NSA Spy Data, Program May Have Led Improperly to Warrants."

The juxtaposition of the headline and the rest of the content is interesting and once again suggests that for the MSM, "if it bleeds, it leads". That is, in this story, this is more important...

"Twice in the past four years, a top Justice Department lawyer warned the presiding judge of a secret surveillance court that information overheard in President Bush's eavesdropping program may have been improperly used to obtain wiretap warrants in the court, according to two sources with knowledge of those events."

...the circumstances that lead to the two instances of perhaps tainted information being used to obtain a warrant were discovered, addressed and corrected. Further, the fact that it was a DoJ official who brought these cases to the attention of the court seems lost on the WP.

Almost grudgingly and with minimal emphasis, the article concludes with a recounting of the successes of the surveillance programs:

"On Sept. 12, Bush asked new FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III in a Cabinet meeting whether it was safe for commercial air traffic to resume, according to senior government officials. Mueller had to acknowledge he could not give a reliable assessment.

Mueller and Justice officials went to Lamberth, who agreed that day to expedited procedures to issue FISA warrants for eavesdropping, a government official said.

The requirement for detailed paperwork was greatly eased, allowing the NSA to begin eavesdropping the next day on anyone suspected of a link to al Qaeda, every person who had ever been a member or supporter of militant Islamic groups, and everyone ever linked to a terrorist watch list in the United States or abroad, the official said.

In March 2002, the FBI and Pakistani police arrested Abu Zubaida, then the third-ranking al Qaeda operative, in Pakistan. When agents found Zubaida's laptop computer, a senior law enforcement source said, they discovered that the vast majority of people he had been communicating with were being monitored under FISA warrants or international spying efforts.

"Finally, we got some comfort" that surveillance efforts were working, said a government official familiar with Zubaida's arrest.""


Interesting juxatpositioning of emphasis.
 
This story reveals three things:

1. The FISA court was aware of the NSA program and was kept apprised of it throughout the time it was used.
2. The Bush administration went to great lengths to ensure that FISA warrants were untainted by information obtained in the surveillance.
3. At least ten times a year, FISA allowed surveillance of individuals that came to the attention of the government through the wiretapping.

Sounds like it works fine to me.
 
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