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Does U.S. Foreign Policy bear any responsibilty for the rise of Islamic Extremism

Does U.S. bear any responsibility for the rise of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism?

  • Yes, total

    Votes: 5 12.8%
  • No, none at all

    Votes: 11 28.2%
  • Well, some but not much, far more important is...

    Votes: 9 23.1%
  • It is mainly the U.S.'s fault but there are other factors, such as...

    Votes: 12 30.8%
  • About as much as any of these...

    Votes: 2 5.1%

  • Total voters
    39
i readily admit the US governments often blatant role in the formation of terrorist groups and third world dictatorships

i think the worlds current crisis is an acceptable cost for the destruction of the soviet empire.
 
I think that the west is more to blame then just the Americans, but the current American influence in the area is the reason we have been targeted.

And the destruction of the Soviet Empire is not worth the radicals that we have to deal with today. The Soviets and Americans were operating with the terms of mutual destruction. The radicals now are not operating under those rules, they want to die and that is much worst.
 
MiamiFlorida said:
I'm sure there are many people who think that the United States could bring peace and democracy to the Middle East only by supporting Islamic fundamentalists. These are the same people who continue to whitewash terrorism worldwide.

A fanatical and evil ideology must be opposed everywhere, and the line must be drawn where apologists are most vocal. If terrorism is explained sympathetically in Israel or Iraq, condemnation of events in London or New York means nothing.

Terrorist action that we see around the world and perpetrated in the name of Islam is not mere hit and run tactics against western powers. The scores of militant groups that exist throughout the Islamic world, from Algeria to Indonesia, are not freedom fighters. Their objective is to establish Islamic states in the image of their version of Islam, and impose their will on the rest of us. The Islamic apologists are only fooling themselves if they think the terrorists are fighting for freedom and liberty.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

I fail to see the relevance of your remarks to the subject under discussion. In no way can any of my posts be constued as being apologetic, and in no way do I think the terrorists are fighting for freedom and liberty. Such accusations are ludicrous and the content of your post is so far from any of the points I have made, I am fairly sure you have not read any of my posts.

I am attempting to understand, and I hope the rest of you are as well, the effect U.S. policy has had upon the region, in a hope of finding the 'root causes' of such atrocities as 9/11 and the London Bombing. The end result of which would, I hope, be a way of combatting these causes and reducing the level of violence in the world as well as promoting the concepts of freedom and liberty.
 
quietrage said:
I think that the west is more to blame then just the Americans, but the current American influence in the area is the reason we have been targeted.

And the destruction of the Soviet Empire is not worth the radicals that we have to deal with today. The Soviets and Americans were operating with the terms of mutual destruction. The radicals now are not operating under those rules, they want to die and that is much worst.

I too would attribute blame to the West rather than simply America, but I also cannot ignore that in the Post-War era, and especially now, with the Soviet Union gone that America is the West, and deviation from American policy is construed as deviation from Western policy. The current situation in Iraq with regards to European opinion highlights this more than anything in recent times.

America is now in the historically unique role of dominant super-power in the world, in the middle east they have been totally dominant for at least 40 years, and with the stranglehold American corporate interests have over the third world, I believe that the only meaningful change possible must occur within the United States, and with the current political climate, this is increasingly hard to imagine.
 
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new coup for you said:
the collapse of the Eastern Bloc ended the enslavement of hundreds of millions of people to a political machine of death

As would the collapse of the United States, your point?
 
freethought6t9 said:
I too would attribute blame to the West rather than simply America, but I also cannot ignore that in the Post-War era, and especially now, with the Soviet Union gone that America is the West, and deviation from American policy is construed as deviation from Western policy. The current situation in Iraq with regards to European opinion highlights this more than anything in recent times.
America is now in the historically unique role of dominant super-power in the world, in the middle east they have been totally dominant for at least 40 years, and with the stranglehold American corporate interests have over the third world, I believe that the only meaningful change possible must occur within the United States, and with the current political climate, this is increasingly hard to imagine.
I ment that this whole thing started with European colonization, and American policy of mettling in Middle Eastern affairs is the reason we are to blame. And I agree that there will be no change in America towards this problem.
(you are wrong about America's historic role. The Romans were in our place for hundreds of years)
 
quietrage said:
I ment that this whole thing started with European colonization, and American policy of mettling in Middle Eastern affairs is the reason we are to blame. And I agree that there will be no change in America towards this problem.
(you are wrong about America's historic role. The Romans were in our place for hundreds of years)

The Romans crossed my mind and are a valid comparison, but they didn't have quite the global dominance as the U.S. do, just a western dominance and even then intense conflicts took place in the Germanic regions where Roman dominance was by no means complete. But it is the closest anyone has come in history, and of course the Roman Empire crumbled from within.

European colonialism was the main problem in the Middle and Near East up
until as late as the 40's and 50's, I know what you meant.
 
The European effect did not end in the 50s it is still being felt because of the pretty designs the countries are. This is very cear in northern Iraq and Turkey where the Kurds got screwed out of a country.
 
freethought6t9 said:
I think the phrase that sticks out most to me is "set up just another dictatorship under the guise of democracy", but that's a discussion for another day.

If you read the original source you will find that Soviet itervention was minimal in the region, either simply supplying arms with no political pay-offs when the U.S. would not oblige as was the case in Egypt. Or acting in a peace-keeping role (although never acually mobilising) to try to halt Israeli aggression. The one major intervention, Afghanistan, was undoubtedly an unlawful act of aggression designed to increase Soviet influence in the Middle East and a fatal error. Even in this case the U.S. claim to have drawn the Soviets into an "Afghan trap" and were organising and funding the mujahideen (many of whom had been attacking the country from Pakistan for years) fully a year before the Soviet invasion.

So I think the assumption that the U.S. and yes, Europe, were intervening to halt Soviet expansion has many flaws, crucially the Soviet ambivalence in the region. Personally I think the attitude of the Soviets and much of Europe was that overt intervention and aggression would cause more problems than it would solve and inflame and aggravate the highly nationalist population. The U.S. gave little regard to such subtleties and continued upon a plan of hostility,aggression and repression that has indeed inflamed and aggravated the highly nationalist population and caused far more problems than it has solved.

Finally, your remark about halting the spread of Islamic radicalism and violence spawned from it is perfectly valid. I assume this is the purpose of the 'War on Terror', not to infact end Terrorism, or even those who use terror as a tactic, but Islamic Jihadists who use terror as a tactic. To this end, it is reasonable to ask what are the living conditions which spawn such monsters; what is the political landscape of the region, the economic condition, education and many other highly important indices that measure the socio-economic welfare of the population. I think an examination of these indices is highly relevant, because after all it is very rare that citizens of an afluent and rich country turn on the rulers in such a ferocious manner. There are exceptions certainly, but they must surely compromise a minority of such crimes.

If you look at the important indicators of socio-economic health in the middle-east the results are not good, not good at all. As well as frequent food shortages in certain areas, the economic welfare of Muslims is very poor. Unemployment is skyhigh, illiteracy and lack of education are also found, poor healthcare, low life expectancy, high infant mortality, an AIDS crisis ravaging MENA countries and the lack of basic human and civil rights. Added to the high level of violence in parts of the region, this makes up for a very grim living situation, and perhaps you can already see why Islamic Jihadism is gaining influence in such influence, an illiterate, uneducated, unemployed cross section of young men hostile to the signs of overt foreign infiltration and it's detrimental effects on their society are easy pickings for any form of radicalism whether it is Germany in the 30's or the third world.

Communist radicals, fascist radicals and Islamic radicals have been surfacing for decades, in many regions and the U.S. hasn't and still doesn't care which of the latter two it supports in a quest for profit. This has long been the brunt of U.S. foreign policy, the overriding consideration has always been the bottom line, and in the Middle East that has only ever meant one thing;

"If the chief natural resource of the Middle East were bananas, the region would not have attracted the attention of U.S. policymakers as it has for decades"

"Sheldon L. Richman, "Ancient History: U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly Of Intervention" - (Sheldon L. Richman is senior editor at the Cato Institute)

I never mentioned the Soviet Union I said communist expansion, the two are not mutually exclusive, If you recall the Soviet invasion of Afganhistan was to aid the communist regime which had taken power at that time, or so they say, their true goal was to ensure access to the warm water port in the mediteranian because they had none but that's another story altogether. Ever hear of the domino theory proposed by Eisenhower, the U.S. policy at the time was one of containment, not just in S. East Asia but in the Mid East and S. America as well, this go's to explain the reasons why we have supported dictators, the cold war made for strange bed fellows indeed, it's the lesser of two evils scenario and I don't see any reason to apologize for it considering that we were, for all intents and purposes, able to halt the spread of communism, even China and Vietnam have now adobted capitalist institutions and I would further propose that if it was not for the Tianmen massacre that China would have had a democratic revolution just as in Soviet Russia.
 
I found a site that offers books relevant to the topic at hand. Click on the link, if interested:

http://www.americanempireproject.com/index.htm

Devil's Game: How the United States Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam

By Robert Dreyfuss

Published by Metropolitan Books

hardcover | 320 pages
11/1/2005 | US$27.50
ISBN: 0805076522

About the book:
The first complete investigation of America's most dangerous foreign policy miscalculation: sixty years of support for Islamic fundamentalism

Devil's Game is the previously untold account of America's misguided efforts, stretching across six decades, to cultivate the Islamic right in an effort to dominate the economically and strategically vital Middle East. Drawing on archival research and interviews with policy makers and CIA, defense, and foreign-service officials, Robert Dreyfuss argues that America's historic alliance with the Islamic right is greatly to blame for the emergence of Islamist terrorism in the 1990s.

Among the hidden stories of U.S. collusion with radical Islam that Dreyfuss reveals here are President Eisenhower's 1953 Oval Office meeting with a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the United States' later secret alliance with that group and their Saudi patrons against Egypt's President Nasser. Dreyfuss meticulously documents the CIA's funding of the Iranian ayatollahs in the coup d-etat that restored Iran's shah to power, the United States' support for Saudi Arabia's efforts to create a worldwide Islamic bloc as an antidote to Arab nationalism, and the longstanding ties between Islamic fundamentalists and the leading banks of the West. With clarity and rigor, Dreyfuss also chronicles how the United States looked the other way when Israel's secret service supported the creation of the radical Palestinian group Hamas and how a secretive clique of American strategists in the 1970s exploited political Islam to conduct a proxy war against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan -- leading directly to the rise of the Taliban.

Wide-ranging and deeply informed, Devil's Game reveals a history of double-dealing and cynical exploitation that continues to this day -- as in Iraq, where the United States is backing radical Islamists, allied with Iran's clerics, who have surfaced as the dominant force in the post-Saddam Hussein Iraqi government. What emerges is a pattern that, far from furthering either democracy or security, ensures a future of blunders and blowbacks.

Robert Dreyfuss, who covers national security for Rolling Stone, has written extensively on Iraq and the war on terrorism for The Nation, The American Prospect, and Mother Jones. A frequent contributor to NPR, MSNBC, CNBC, and many other broadcast outlets, he lives in Alexandria, Virginia.

Devil's Game is available at all fine bookstores. Here are some links to help you.
 
Originally Posted by freethought6t9:
I am attempting to understand, and I hope the rest of you are as well, the effect U.S. policy has had upon the region, in a hope of finding the 'root causes' of such atrocities as 9/11 and the London Bombing.
One of the root causes, is the mindset of some towards Islam and that part of the world, being formulated without ever making any effort trying to understand what "it" is that they hate. Even this is a gross over-simplification of the problem. Or at least one of its parts.

If you break down this mindset into various parts, there are contributions from a number of sources:
  • Getting too much news and information from television.
  • Growing up in dysfunctional households that suppress the individual's rights to have their own thoughts and feelings.
  • Laziness on some in that they are merely reciting the opinions of their parents or mentors.
  • Coming from areas of the country that bleed red, white and blue.
  • Coming from families that have a history of military service.
  • Not realizing we are spoiled in the US. Which, in many ways, leads to extreme arrogance and narcissism.
  • The combination of our adolescent society and our advanced technology.
  • Ignorance or fear of things you don't understand that are foreign based.
This list could go on and on. But you get the idea, I hope. When you combine some or all in any combination with social tragedy on the scale of a 9/11, London Bombing or Iraq war, people gravitate to what is familiar.

If your from a red state, as an example, you might get very pro-USA and take a strong stance against anything that hints of another point of view outside these borders. More commonly, you're simply programmed to react this way since you were a baby. What I don't understand is when someone such as this, gets thru school and has acquired a certain level of education, why do they continue to react as before?

One guess is, they have a stake in the outcome. Or they are lazy of mind and would rather not take the road less travelled. Whatever the motivation, the behavior is where it is manifested and very easy to spot (someone arguing strictly from a place of emotion or fear). An obvious example of this is from those that say we have to "stay the coarse" in Iraq and finish the job. As though this job was a noble and just cause. Which would infer they care about Iraqis. But notice their reaction when you bring to their attention American atrocities being committed in Iraq. They blow you off and whatever source you quoted as being ridiculous or anti-American or pro-terrorist. Is that the reaction a person has toward someone they care about? Let me put it this way. If someone came to you and said, "Your children are being physically and mentally abused at school right now", would you react by telling this person, "Don't be ridiculous!" "You are just some left wing Bush hater, aren't you?" "I am offended you tried to use my kids to help you spread your hate!"

Is that how a parent would react? Or would they immediately want to get to the bottom of the allegations as soons as possible to find out what is the truth of the issue. Granted a parents love for their child is much more than how Americans feel towards Iraqis, but I use this extreme case so the message could be easily understood.

I know this doesn't do much to answer your question. But it is some of the factors that influence this cheerleading of US foreign policy.

A majority of the causal factors can be found in the concept of Corporatism and the WTO. That is driving the bandwagon that people are cheering at the expense of ME people.

At least that's what I think. Please keep in mind, I'm no expert.
 
Re:

Does U.S. Foreign Policy bear any responsibilty for the rise of Islamic Extremism

Of course it does. I hope it does. That way everyone who wants to take a shot at america will be found quicker and faster as if we just sit around and did nothing.

For example, we bomb a terrorist camp. Terrorist get mad. Terrorist plot attack against america. America gets evidence of plot. Terrorist get funding for plot. America follows the money trail. Then america finds terrorists and kills them. The end:2razz:

Now we can live happily ever after casue every single person who got pissed is now caught and exterminated. :2wave:

This will be more likely the scenario for every terrorist that gets caught.
 
freethought6t9 said:
I think the phrase that sticks out most to me is "set up just another dictatorship under the guise of democracy", but that's a discussion for another day.

If you read the original source you will find that Soviet itervention was minimal in the region, either simply supplying arms with no political pay-offs when the U.S. would not oblige as was the case in Egypt. Or acting in a peace-keeping role (although never acually mobilising) to try to halt Israeli aggression. The one major intervention, Afghanistan, was undoubtedly an unlawful act of aggression designed to increase Soviet influence in the Middle East and a fatal error. Even in this case the U.S. claim to have drawn the Soviets into an "Afghan trap" and were organising and funding the mujahideen (many of whom had been attacking the country from Pakistan for years) fully a year before the Soviet invasion.

So I think the assumption that the U.S. and yes, Europe, were intervening to halt Soviet expansion has many flaws, crucially the Soviet ambivalence in the region. Personally I think the attitude of the Soviets and much of Europe was that overt intervention and aggression would cause more problems than it would solve and inflame and aggravate the highly nationalist population. The U.S. gave little regard to such subtleties and continued upon a plan of hostility,aggression and repression that has indeed inflamed and aggravated the highly nationalist population and caused far more problems than it has solved.

Finally, your remark about halting the spread of Islamic radicalism and violence spawned from it is perfectly valid. I assume this is the purpose of the 'War on Terror', not to infact end Terrorism, or even those who use terror as a tactic, but Islamic Jihadists who use terror as a tactic. To this end, it is reasonable to ask what are the living conditions which spawn such monsters; what is the political landscape of the region, the economic condition, education and many other highly important indices that measure the socio-economic welfare of the population. I think an examination of these indices is highly relevant, because after all it is very rare that citizens of an afluent and rich country turn on the rulers in such a ferocious manner. There are exceptions certainly, but they must surely compromise a minority of such crimes.

If you look at the important indicators of socio-economic health in the middle-east the results are not good, not good at all. As well as frequent food shortages in certain areas, the economic welfare of Muslims is very poor. Unemployment is skyhigh, illiteracy and lack of education are also found, poor healthcare, low life expectancy, high infant mortality, an AIDS crisis ravaging MENA countries and the lack of basic human and civil rights. Added to the high level of violence in parts of the region, this makes up for a very grim living situation, and perhaps you can already see why Islamic Jihadism is gaining influence in such influence, an illiterate, uneducated, unemployed cross section of young men hostile to the signs of overt foreign infiltration and it's detrimental effects on their society are easy pickings for any form of radicalism whether it is Germany in the 30's or the third world.

Communist radicals, fascist radicals and Islamic radicals have been surfacing for decades, in many regions and the U.S. hasn't and still doesn't care which of the latter two it supports in a quest for profit. This has long been the brunt of U.S. foreign policy, the overriding consideration has always been the bottom line, and in the Middle East that has only ever meant one thing;

"If the chief natural resource of the Middle East were bananas, the region would not have attracted the attention of U.S. policymakers as it has for decades"

"Sheldon L. Richman, "Ancient History: U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly Of Intervention" - (Sheldon L. Richman is senior editor at the Cato Institute)

As for the latter part of your post, and the implication therof, that we were only in it for the oil, this too I must contest, because, as I'm sure you know, our policy of containment was not isolated to the Mid-East, what Oil was there in Vietnam, in Korea? Yes, there is oil in South America but again that is not the primary reason for containment the reason was to stop the domino effect from becoming a reality and in that we succeeded so I will not apologize for it, the cold war was not a war for territory or resources it was a war of ideologies just as is the current "War on Terror," and guess what? Our ideology prevailed and will prevail.
 
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Originally Posted by SKILMATIC:
Of course it does. I hope it does. That way everyone who wants to take a shot at america will be found quicker and faster as if we just sit around and did nothing.

For example, we bomb a terrorist camp. Terrorist get mad. Terrorist plot attack against america. America gets evidence of plot. Terrorist get funding for plot. America follows the money trail. Then america finds terrorists and kills them. The end

Now we can live happily ever after casue every single person who got pissed is now caught and exterminated.

This will be more likely the scenario for every terrorist that gets caught
See what I mean?
 
I would also like to add that the standard of living of the people under the gov'ts which the U.S. supports in the mid east are quite high, relatively speaking, eg Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan to the exception of Pakistan which the U.S. only started to support limitedly under CLinton to prevent nuclear war with India and now even more so due to their support in the war in Afghanistan, again you have to realize that the basic staple of U.S. foriegn policy since Jefferson has been one of pragmatism, free trade and friendship with all, entangled alliances with none, atleast I think it was Jefferson who coined that phrase if I'm wrong someone correct me because I'm to lazy to google it and I already sold my foriegn policy book back.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
I would also like to add that the standard of living of the people under the gov'ts which the U.S. supports in the mid east are quite high, relatively speaking, eg Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan to the exception of Pakistan which the U.S. only started to support limitedly under CLinton to prevent nuclear war with India and now even more so due to their support in the war in Afghanistan, again you have to realize that the basic staple of U.S. foriegn policy since Jefferson has been one of pragmatism, free trade and friendship with all, entangled alliances with none, atleast I think it was Jefferson who coined that phrase if I'm wrong someone correct me because I'm to lazy to google it and I already sold my foriegn policy book back.
That is because the countries we do not support we attacked derectly or by using another government.
 
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxxxoxooxoxoxoxoxoxxoxoxoooxoxoxoxoxoxoxxooxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxxoxxxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxooxoxxoxooxx

Just felt like giving everyone a warm welcome :2razz:
 
quietrage said:
The European effect did not end in the 50s it is still being felt because of the pretty designs the countries are. This is very cear in northern Iraq and Turkey where the Kurds got screwed out of a country.

Yeah, but I said the main problem, after WWII the U.S. took over, in more ways than one.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
I never mentioned the Soviet Union I said communist expansion, the two are not mutually exclusive, If you recall the Soviet invasion of Afganhistan was to aid the communist regime which had taken power at that time, or so they say, their true goal was to ensure access to the warm water port in the mediteranian because they had none but that's another story altogether. Ever hear of the domino theory proposed by Eisenhower, the U.S. policy at the time was one of containment, not just in S. East Asia but in the Mid East and S. America as well, this go's to explain the reasons why we have supported dictators, the cold war made for strange bed fellows indeed, it's the lesser of two evils scenario and I don't see any reason to apologize for it considering that we were, for all intents and purposes, able to halt the spread of communism, even China and Vietnam have now adobted capitalist institutions and I would further propose that if it was not for the Tianmen massacre that China would have had a democratic revolution just as in Soviet Russia.

The spread of 'international communism' was never really more than a propaganda campaign. Sure it was gaining support among local populations the world over, but due to the concepts of land reform and redistribution of wealth, which are still pretty popular in a lot of the poorer countries in the world. Containment is a lie, at least in regard to the middle east, in fact it could be said that Soviet intervention in the region was borne of a policy of 'containment', namely of Israeli power. The only country to receive any form of support from the Soviets was Egypt. They were forced to buy arms from the Soviets as the U.S. would only provide them conditionally. The Soviet arms deal had no such strings attached. Of course, the invasion of Afghanistan is quite important too. The Soviets had placed an unpopular communist regime in power so this regime could 'ask' the Russians to 'defend' Afghanistan. Still an invasion, however it bears striking similarities to the U.S. invasion of South Vietnam, except of course the regime the U.S. had placed in power had already fallen, so there was no government to ask the U.S. to intervene.

If you think you can justify the invasion of Vietnam through the logic of anti-communism, then I am sorry but you are a barbarian. The NLF were the only political entity in South Vietnam with popular support. If the re-unification election in the South had taken place they would have swept to power easily. Of course this did not support U.S. interests so due to lack of political support in the country, a campaign of violence ensued for nearly a decade. The population of South Vietnam wanted the NLF, and they were abused and slaughtered by the U.S. and the puppet regime it installed after the invasion. So does the United States have the right to tell indigenous populations living thousands of miles away who they can vote for. Does it have the right to invade when a political party it doesn't like gains popular support and stands up to the terrorist armies and the increasingly violent Diem government that the U.S. has been funding. Is this the lesser of two evils? A brutal totalitarian government with little popular support, over a party pledging land reform and self-governance. No it is not, this is picking the side that will serve U.S. interests best and the indigenous peoples be damned.

And if you were to say to any U.S. State Dept. official (including Eisenhowers)that the reason for such heavy interventions in the Middle East were due to the spread of international communism, he would laugh in your face my friend. As they would then have to kindly explain to you, while patting you gently on the back and calling you a 'poor boy', the only reason the U.S. is interested in the middle east is oil. I always thought this a fairly uncontroversial claim yet your post doesn't seem to mention it at all. Well the evidence I have posted on this site is more than enough to demonstrate that from the end of WWII U.S. intervention has been heavy, clumsy and in some cases, astronomical. Soviet intervention has been light, delicate and minimal though, with the obvious exception being the invasion of Afghanistan, a fatal blunder on their part, and viciously fought by (successful) U.S. funded terrorist armies, which then proceeded to start blowing up the middle east and most recently perpetrating the atrocities of September 11th. Perhaps the Soviets had a better grasp of the geo-political climate of the region, and they knew that intervention would be a decidedly difficult game to play, conventional thinking in Europe at the time reflects the situation. It still didn't stop Britain and France from creating Israel though it has to be asked if they had planned to set it up as the dominant miitary power in the region. Either way, the U.S. ignored the subtlties and pitfalls of the region and it's politics, blustered in, made a big mess and now it's feeling the altogether negative impact.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
I would also like to add that the standard of living of the people under the gov'ts which the U.S. supports in the mid east are quite high, relatively speaking, eg Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan to the exception of Pakistan which the U.S. only started to support limitedly under CLinton to prevent nuclear war with India and now even more so due to their support in the war in Afghanistan, again you have to realize that the basic staple of U.S. foriegn policy since Jefferson has been one of pragmatism, free trade and friendship with all, entangled alliances with none, atleast I think it was Jefferson who coined that phrase if I'm wrong someone correct me because I'm to lazy to google it and I already sold my foriegn policy book back.

The standard of living is not high, that is a blatant falsehood. Perhaps in comparison to Afghanistan, the poorest country in the world at the time of the U.S. invasion, and Iraq, as the country and it's population were decimated by a decade of sanctions. So I would prefer it if we stick to facts please. Like the AIDs epidemic ravaging MENA countries
 
MENA countries? I'm not familiar with the term. Would you mind explaining?:confused:
 
MrFungus420 said:
MENA countries? I'm not familiar with the term. Would you mind explaining?:confused:

Middle Eastern North African (it is basically what people really mean when talking about the middle east, i.e. Egypt, Sudan, Libya etc.)

My previous post was incomplete. I had edited it and was unable to save changes. I would ignore it if I were you. What I had gone on to elaborate was that although some indicators were higher or better than average in developing countries such as IMR and life expectancy, some aren't, such as literacy and womens rights. Add to this the absence of political freedoms, human rights abuses, a climate of fear and high levels of violence throughout the region and I think it makes for desperate lives. Oil revenues have helped to some extent, but the majority of these revenuse remains at the top.

http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_SAU.html
 
I would also like to add that the standard of living of the people under the gov'ts which the U.S. supports in the mid east are quite high, relatively speaking, eg Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan to the exception of Pakistan which the U.S. only started to support limitedly under CLinton to prevent nuclear war with India and now even more so due to their support in the war in Afghanistan, again you have to realize that the basic staple of U.S. foriegn policy since Jefferson has been one of pragmatism, free trade and friendship with all, entangled alliances with none, atleast I think it was Jefferson who coined that phrase if I'm wrong someone correct me because I'm to lazy to google it and I already sold my foriegn policy book back.

pakistan was supported since the beginning of the cold-war. Saudi Arabia is one of the top islamic extremist states in the mid-east, and if you think public executions are a high standard of living then sure....



In regards to foreign policy, Britain was probably the leading cause of the mess in that region. But today the US has pretty much taken over Britain's legacy in a much more subtle manner. The superpower before was Britain, but we can safely say that the superpower today is the US. A lot of mid-easterns see the US presence in the Mid-East not much different from the previous European imperialists.
 
freethought6t9 said:
The spread of 'international communism' was never really more than a propaganda campaign. Sure it was gaining support among local populations the world over, but due to the concepts of land reform and redistribution of wealth, which are still pretty popular in a lot of the poorer countries in the world. Containment is a lie, at least in regard to the middle east, in fact it could be said that Soviet intervention in the region was borne of a policy of 'containment', namely of Israeli power. The only country to receive any form of support from the Soviets was Egypt. They were forced to buy arms from the Soviets as the U.S. would only provide them conditionally. The Soviet arms deal had no such strings attached. Of course, the invasion of Afghanistan is quite important too. The Soviets had placed an unpopular communist regime in power so this regime could 'ask' the Russians to 'defend' Afghanistan. Still an invasion, however it bears striking similarities to the U.S. invasion of South Vietnam, except of course the regime the U.S. had placed in power had already fallen, so there was no government to ask the U.S. to intervene.

The spread of international communism was propoganda? Are you daft man?
Stalin was supporting the North Koreans clandestinally, not just through advisors but with the aid of actual fighter pilots, this, while in the past was only speculative, has now become common knowledge after the fall of the U.S.S.R., furthermore; now due to the recent declasification of intercepted Soviet wire transfers and intelligence we now know that Soviet agents were indeed in the U.S. and in many cases in the highest offices of the U.S. state department, the first Secretary General of the U.N. Alger Hiss was infact a Soviet Agent. Mccarthiasm wasn't paranoia my friend the Soviet spy network was extensive and a great danger to the free world.
 
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