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Does the US system have a free market system or socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor?

Yes_Minister

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Does the US system have a free market system or a system of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor?

https://www.newsweek.com/robert-reich-why-socialism-rich-capitalism-poor-455066

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_for_the_rich_and_capitalism_for_the_poor

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/11/01/american-way-socialism-rich-free-enterprise-rest

How often do politicians cut corporate welfare instead of social programs for the poor? How can there be a ''free market'' if politicians will give out favors to wealthy donors who get them elected? It seems like ''big government'' is fine as long it serves corporate interests in the eyes of most politicians and CEOs.
 

Ikari

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We run a Corporate-Capitalism system, which is certainly not free market.
 

celticwar17

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Crony Capitalist and Social welfare state....

Essentially a more free economic facist-style government.... Democratic Socialism is even closer to economic fascism. Money and Power controls politics... and it always will... always. If you build a system to try to circumvent that, it will backfire on you.
You need politics to not be powerful in order for it to have the least impact on the public.... but obviously there is a sweet spot that no one can agree on.... because there comes a point then the money becomes more powerful than the government.
 

Mr Person

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This is far too over-simplified. The economy is restrained capitalism, with government owning very few if any of the means of production; any comparison to socialism is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what socialism actually is defined as. The government is a democratic republic that is largely run by the most heavily-moneyed interests, which for some reason many of the people who say they want small government without cronyism keep rewarding with tax cuts, thereby getting reelected by voters who also say that.

What I just said is also a gross oversimplification.
 
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Yes_Minister

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This is far too over-simplified. The economy is restrained capitalism, with government owning very few if any of the means of production; any comparison to socialism is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what socialism actually is defined as. The government is a democratic republic that is largely run by the most heavily-moneyed interests, which for some reason many of the people who say they want small government without cronyism keep rewarding with tax cuts, thereby getting reelected by voters who also say that.

What I just said is also a gross oversimplification.

I think socialism is used in an ironic way here, but "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor" is an old phrase, used by people like Noam Chomsky and MLK. Another way to look at it is "privatize profits and socialize losses", which gets the ironic title of "lemon socialism"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_socialism

We are not talking about socialism in terms of the workers controlling the means of production, but an ironic use of the word that refers to the government bailing or otherwise helping rich donors and not poor people and the same rules not applying to rich people
 

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I think socialism is used in an ironic way here, but "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor" is an old phrase, used by people like Noam Chomsky and MLK. Another way to look at it is "privatize profits and socialize losses", which gets the ironic title of "lemon socialism"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_socialism

We are not talking about socialism in terms of the workers controlling the means of production, but an ironic use of the word that refers to the government bailing or otherwise helping rich donors and not poor people and the same rules not applying to rich people

Oh, I understand his use of socialism. I'm saying that in general it is completely misused, most often as a critique of a law or regulation when the critic can't actually explain why another approach would be better. I see that happen here all the time.
 

trouble13

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Does the US system have a free market system or a system of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor?

https://www.newsweek.com/robert-reich-why-socialism-rich-capitalism-poor-455066

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_for_the_rich_and_capitalism_for_the_poor

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/11/01/american-way-socialism-rich-free-enterprise-rest

How often do politicians cut corporate welfare instead of social programs for the poor? How can there be a ''free market'' if politicians will give out favors to wealthy donors who get them elected? It seems like ''big government'' is fine as long it serves corporate interests in the eyes of most politicians and CEOs.
Which is one of many reasons to abolish the income tax

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trixare4kids

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The question that should have been asked by the O/P is does the U.S. system have a free market system or a capitalist system?...We have the latter, btw.

A capitalist system and a free market system are both economic environments that are based on supply and demand, however the first system has NO gov. regulations whereas the latter has some.
 
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Mr Person

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Which is one of many reasons to abolish the income tax

No, it's a reason to rethink the income tax along with capital gains tax along with all the very many perfectly legal loopholes that let wealth avoid tax, which loopholes a lower middle class person couldn't even think about affording to hire a lawyer to deal with even if they had some spare cash.

Doing away with the income tax sounds like one of those proposals that's supposed to appear principled, but in reality is designed with the hope of wiping out federal tax revenue, which itself in turn is designed to then serve as a justification to get rid of the safety net and basically any program designed to help another human being. Now, maybe you didn't personally mean it that way, but that's sure as hell the way the GOP means it when they say things like you said.
 

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The question that should have been asked by the O/P is does the U.S. system have a free market system or a capitalist system?...We have the latter, btw.

A capitalist system and a free market system are both economic environments that are based on supply and demand, however the first system has NO gov. regulations whereas the latter has some.

I can guess the answer to your leading question, but here is my question, how often do Republican politicans cut social programs for the poor vs. cutting corporate welfare? It seems like there always give aways to defense contractors when the GOP wants to spend more on the military. How many money does the private prison industry make off of mass incarceration? How much does the insurance companies make off the US health care system? The US spends more of its GDP on health care then Canada does, puts more people in prison then anyone else does and spends more on its military then the next 8 countries combined.

Maybe the US would be in less debt if it lessened its corporate welfare programs and stopped turning programs into corporate give aways.

https://www.thenation.com/article/heres-where-your-tax-dollars-for-defense-are-really-going/

https://www.americanbar.org/publica...isons_for_profit_incarceration_for_sale.html/

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...-spend-half-much-per-person-health-u-s-spends
 
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trixare4kids

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I can guess the answer to your leading question, but here is my question, how often do Republican politicans cut social programs for the poor vs. cutting corporate welfare? It seems like there always give aways to defense contractors when the GOP wants to spend more on the military. How many money does the private prison industry make off of mass incarceration? How much does the insurance companies make off the US health care system? The US spends more of its GDP on health care then Canada does, puts more people in prison then anyone else does and spends more on its military then the next 8 countries combined.

Maybe the US would be in less debt if it lessened its corporate welfare programs and stopped turning programs into corporate give aways.


https://www.thenation.com/article/heres-where-your-tax-dollars-for-defense-are-really-going/

https://www.americanbar.org/publica...isons_for_profit_incarceration_for_sale.html/

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...-spend-half-much-per-person-health-u-s-spends

My country is the MOST giving in the world...

Pushed send to quickly... We don't punish the haves in this country nor should we.
I'll let you think about that.
 
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Yes_Minister

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It eliminates tax loopholes

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And what about the subsidies they get? How that stop politicians doing favors for their donors?

Heck, fascial conservativism always seems to favor the wealthy; Republicans massively drive up the debt through upper class tax cuts and massive military spending (which usually has massive give aways for defense industry) and then use that as an excuse to cut social programs for the poor. Big debt is okay for GOP, as long it takes care of the rich. When has the GOP ever actually reduced the federal debt or deficit?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-fuel-historic-u-s-deficits-cbo-idUSKBN1HG2RW

https://www.thenation.com/article/g...hat-they-might-change-the-whole-conversation/

https://newrepublic.com/article/147063/gop-deficit-scam-will-never-die

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stancollender/2017/10/08/the-gop-is-a-deficit-fraud/#11adbcd5263d


The GOP will never close the loopholes, because their pay masters will not let them. The purpose of the GOP is not reduce the size of government, its to make rich people richer. The GOP combines big government with big business perfectly.
 
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Yes_Minister

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My country is the MOST giving in the world...

Pushed send to quickly... We don't punish the haves in this country nor should we.
I'll let you think about that.

Oh really? What's the income gap in the US compared to other countries? How is social mobility in the US compared to other first world countries?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-other-rich-countries/?utm_term=.d39ee09e0fc4

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/29/17627134/income-inequality-chart

https://www.economist.com/graphic-d...overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...s-the-american-dream-lives-on/article4171456/

You talk about not punishing the ''haves'', but then let ask you this, is it punishment to take away their influence peddling and subsidies? Because not only have you not punished them, you let them rig the system in their favor. Is government not giving them free money a punishment now?
 
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I want to add one more thing to the thread... both parties are responsible for boosting the debt.

We didn't get there because the Republicans gave too much to "corporate giveaways"... Au contraire.
Take a look...
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-how-the-us-got-to-20-trillion-in-debt-2017-03-30

Yeah and both parties are part of the problem. Neo liberal Dems are just as guilty as conservatives for supporting corporate welfare, Bernie Sanders speaks out against it all the time.

Notice that tax cuts and wars are big reason for this high debt, which goes back to my ''fiscal conservatism is a giant scam'' point and Obama's stimulus package included massive corporate bail outs, which started with Bush saying some companies are ''too big to fail''.
 

trixare4kids

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Yeah and both parties are part of the problem

. Neo liberal Dems are just as guilty as conservatives for supporting corporate welfare, Bernie Sanders speaks out against it all the time.

Notice that tax cuts and wars are big reason for this high debt, which goes back to my ''fiscal conservatism is a giant scam'' point and Obama's stimulus package included massive corporate bail outs, which started with Bush saying some companies are ''too big to fail''.

Finally, something we can agree about.
 

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Does the US system have a free market system or a system of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor?

https://www.newsweek.com/robert-reich-why-socialism-rich-capitalism-poor-455066

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_for_the_rich_and_capitalism_for_the_poor

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/11/01/american-way-socialism-rich-free-enterprise-rest

How often do politicians cut corporate welfare instead of social programs for the poor? How can there be a ''free market'' if politicians will give out favors to wealthy donors who get them elected? It seems like ''big government'' is fine as long it serves corporate interests in the eyes of most politicians and CEOs.
Total uber-LW baloney.
 

Yes_Minister

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Finally, something we can agree about.

I did not say OP that this was solely a GOP problem (though frankly think their fake fiscal conservatism is a big part of the problem), its a systematic problem, made worse by Citizens United and dark money influence, just switching parties does not address a systematic problem, unless one party is actually serious about changing it.

I think its pointless to argue about what's good for the free market or the value of fiscal conservatism, because at this point I think those things are shell games, there is no free market if rich people are shielded from their mistakes by the government and almost all GOP fiscal conservatism proposals are done in bad faith, they will always drive the debt to serve their interests when they get into power, its a feature, not a bug. The free market does not really exist and the GOP will always lose interest in fiscal conservatism when they get into power, so its not a true ideal for them. We should talk about how things are, because right now we are spending time talking about things that do not exist within the system, when we talk about free markets and fiscal conservatism.
 

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How would that stop rich people from gaming the system?
Stop people from getting rich. You do understand "the rich" has a turnover, right. It's no the same people for generation after generation. I laugh out loud when I hear the mindless mantras of the rich gaming the system or getting tax breaks when, in fact they pay a huge portion of the total income tax revenue. We all hate the rich but when we want a job we don't go asking the homeless people sleeping under the freeway underpass. We clamor for new products and services and then get upset when an entrepreneur provides them and gets rich because of it.
 

trixare4kids

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Yeah and both parties are part of the problem. Neo liberal Dems are just as guilty as conservatives for supporting corporate welfare, Bernie Sanders speaks out against it all the time.

Notice that tax cuts and wars are big reason for this high debt, which goes back to my ''fiscal conservatism is a giant scam'' point and Obama's stimulus package included massive corporate bail outs, which started with Bush saying some companies are ''too big to fail''.

Something else I wanted you to know. I never believed Bush's idea that some corporations were too big to fail.
IMO, we should have left them to fail. Gov. needs to stay out of this. No bailouts.
 

trouble13

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And what about the subsidies they get? How that stop politicians doing favors for their donors?

Heck, fascial conservativism always seems to favor the wealthy; Republicans massively drive up the debt through upper class tax cuts and massive military spending (which usually has massive give aways for defense industry) and then use that as an excuse to cut social programs for the poor. Big debt is okay for GOP, as long it takes care of the rich. When has the GOP ever actually reduced the federal debt or deficit?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-fuel-historic-u-s-deficits-cbo-idUSKBN1HG2RW

https://www.thenation.com/article/g...hat-they-might-change-the-whole-conversation/

https://newrepublic.com/article/147063/gop-deficit-scam-will-never-die

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stancollender/2017/10/08/the-gop-is-a-deficit-fraud/#11adbcd5263d


The GOP will never close the loopholes, because their pay masters will not let them. The purpose of the GOP is not reduce the size of government, its to make rich people richer. The GOP combines big government with big business perfectly.
If we switched to a sales tax it eliminates tax loopholes. Most subsidies come in the form of a tax break.

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Yes_Minister

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Stop people from getting rich. You do understand "the rich" has a turnover, right. It's no the same people for generation after generation. I laugh out loud when I hear the mindless mantras of the rich gaming the system or getting tax breaks when, in fact they pay a huge portion of the total income tax revenue. We all hate the rich but when we want a job we don't go asking the homeless people sleeping under the freeway underpass. We clamor for new products and services and then get upset when an entrepreneur provides them and gets rich because of it.

Oh please, much turn over do you think there is, how is the income income gap and social mobility in the US compared to other first world countries?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-other-rich-countries/?utm_term=.df8305f06528

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/29/17627134/income-inequality-chart

https://www.economist.com/graphic-d...overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...s-the-american-dream-lives-on/article4171456/

Also watch as the blessed job creators replace workers with robots through automation.

How much do they really pay after all those loop holes?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/column-much-poor-actually-pay-taxes-probably-think

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...y-twice-as-much-in-taxes-as-wealthy-investors

Do you really think the pay master donors will let thier pet politicians take away thier loopholes, get real. Not happening.

Its just not tax breaks, how many direct government subsidies do these companies? That's what I am talking about when I mention corporate welfare.

https://theinformedvermonter.com/664-2/

Heck what about corporate welfare in form of no bid contracts, like we saw with Halliburton in Iraq? And how much money does defense contractors make off of US military spending or private prisons make off of mass incarceration?
 
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