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Does the Greenhouse effect really exist?

Pin dÁr

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well, I am wondering. There is something fishy about the whole thing.

One thing is for sure, IR has nothing to do with that.
 

joG

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well, I am wondering. There is something fishy about the whole thing.

One thing is for sure, IR has nothing to do with that.

I don't know what it is over there, but it is nice and warm here.
 

Pin dÁr

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I don't know what it is over there, but it is nice and warm here.

what's that got to doo with anything?
 

DaveFagan

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well, I am wondering. There is something fishy about the whole thing.

One thing is for sure, IR has nothing to do with that.

Proven in 1870.
 

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Was the Snark really a Boojum?
 

spud_meister

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well, I am wondering. There is something fishy about the whole thing.

One thing is for sure, IR has nothing to do with that.

Is this earth warmer than space? If so, explain how that is possible without the greenhouse effect.
 

Pin dÁr

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Is this earth warmer than space? If so, explain how that is possible without the greenhouse effect.

Well, I am saying that IR has nothing to do with it,
 

calamity

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Is this earth warmer than space? If so, explain how that is possible without the greenhouse effect.

Or, why is Venus hotter than Mercury?
 

Deuce

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Because it has nothing to do with it.

Of course it does. Radiation 101:

All objects radiate photons, all the time. The type of radiation depends on the object's temperature. The sun, being ~5700K at its surface, radiates largely in the infrared and visible spectrum. A little squeaks into the ultraviolet range, enough to give us a sunburn.

QnyE6v6.png

Most of it gets to the surface in the form of near-infrared and visible light.

Everything around you is much cooler than the sun. (thankfully!) So, the radiation from those objects is in the longwave side of the infrared spectrum. This includes the earth itself. This longwave infrared radiation would escape to space, but some of it gets trapped by "greenhouse gasses." The effect is acting like a blanket: slowing down the escape of heat, thereby causing the object to stay warmer than it otherwise would. It's a good thing, too: without the greenhouse effect earth would be too cold. The moon's average surface temperature is -77C, and it's the same distance from the sun.

So, what's the issue?
 

longview

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I suspect some quantum assumptions are made that do not accurately reflect reality.
The basic premise is that the 15 um window of CO2 adsorbs and re emits 15 um photons,
some of which are directed back towards the ground.
The first assumption is that most of the the CO2 molecules live in ground state,
and are eagerly awaiting the 15 um photons.
The reality is that CO2 energy states are very long lived (10's of milliseconds), so most
of the CO2 would be busy when the photon arrives.
The second assumption is that the re-emitted photon is itself a 15 um photon,
the reality is that the spin state can spontaneously decay at any time, and most of those
will not result in a 15 um re emission, but some collection of lesser RF far IR steps, which
are not sensitivity to CO2.
I think it is these flawed assumptions and others, which led to the observed diurnal asymmetry
in temperatures, causing the average temperature to increase, by raising the nighttime lows.
 

Deuce

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I suspect some quantum assumptions are made that do not accurately reflect reality.
The basic premise is that the 15 um window of CO2 adsorbs and re emits 15 um photons,
some of which are directed back towards the ground.
The first assumption is that most of the the CO2 molecules live in ground state,
and are eagerly awaiting the 15 um photons.
The reality is that CO2 energy states are very long lived (10's of milliseconds), so most
of the CO2 would be busy when the photon arrives.
The second assumption is that the re-emitted photon is itself a 15 um photon,
the reality is that the spin state can spontaneously decay at any time, and most of those
will not result in a 15 um re emission, but some collection of lesser RF far IR steps, which
are not sensitivity to CO2.
I think it is these flawed assumptions and others, which led to the observed diurnal asymmetry
in temperatures, causing the average temperature to increase, by raising the nighttime lows.

Can you provide any evidence to support your hypothesis?
 

Pin dÁr

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So, what's the issue?

I am not saying there is no infrared. I am saying it has nothing to do with the greenhouse effect.
 

Deuce

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I am not saying there is no infrared. I am saying it has nothing to do with the greenhouse effect.

Well, yes it does because longwave infrared is the radiation absorbed by CO2, water vapor, methane, CFCs, etc.

An actual greenhouse works in a similar fashion because the glass blocks longwave infrared. (and keeps out the wind to block convection/advection)

Why do you think infrared has nothing to do with it?
 

Pin dÁr

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Well, yes it does because longwave infrared is the radiation absorbed by CO2, water vapor, methane, CFCs, etc.

An actual greenhouse works in a similar fashion because the glass blocks longwave infrared. (and keeps out the wind to block convection/advection)

Why do you think infrared has nothing to do with it?

it is just 'normal' heat, not ir.
 

Deuce

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it is just 'normal' heat, not ir.

"Heat" isn't something that moves around in of itself. It transfers via several mechanisms. (conduction, convection, radiation)

The radiation in question is infrared.
 

Pin dÁr

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"Heat" isn't something that moves around in of itself. It transfers via several mechanisms. (conduction, convection, radiation)

The radiation in question is infrared.


yes, you are right here. I am talking convection indeed. ir is not involved in the process.
 
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