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Does the ACLU do more harm than good?

Does the ACLU do more harm than good?

  • Oui

    Votes: 36 49.3%
  • Nyet

    Votes: 37 50.7%

  • Total voters
    73
steen said:
Darwin voiced a hypothesis. It didn't become a Scientific theory until it was processed through the Scientific method, which thus generated The Scientific Theory of Evolution.
Yes, such sensitivity. We should extend that to those kids whose religion dictates that the Earth is flat, right?

Sure, if you can find any. Good luck though. I don't know of any religions that teach that.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Sure, if you can find any. Good luck though. I don't know of any religions that teach that.
The Holy Church of the Flat Earth, of course :lol:

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

They talk about heretic notions and the whole schabang

Of course, we were not talking about religions, but rather about what was considered science. Clearly, neither flat-earthers or IDers have any science; all they have are postulations misrepresented as facts.
 
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Donkey1499 said:
It really depends on the situation. If they're burning it to retire it, fine. But if they're burning it because of some stupid protest against America, then it is anti-American.

"with great vengeance and furious anger will I allow some numbskull zealot to falsify the beliefs of our founding fathers to adhere to the doctrine of the imperious and fictitious novel of christian doctrine. It is not a vengeful master which we seek but only one that understands the true nature of the universe without the detriment of subjective theology" Archon 1:1 p.u.b.e. (previously unspoken belief of etiology)
 
steen said:
The Holy Church of the Flat Earth, of course :lol:

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

They talk about heretic notions and the whole schabang

Of course, we were not talking about religions, but rather about what was considered science. Clearly, neither flat-earthers or IDers have any science; all they have are postulations misrepresented as facts.

I am going to post an immediate disclaimer here: I believe the earth is a sphere. Now, having said that,

If a person had not seen photos of the earth from space or believed, as a few die hard skeptics do, that such photos are a hoax as we never went to the moon, etc.,

If a person read a science text that casually mentioned that the earth and other hard heavenly objects are spheres, and then read the exhaustive 'scientific' opinion from the Flat Earth society, the Flat Earth society would look very authentic. That's the problem with all junk science: it looks so authentic. Get a few hundred or thousand other obscure people in scientific fields who agree with or at least don't dispute the report, and voila: you have a compelling consensus of scientific opinion.

Because of what scientific education I've had coupled with simple logic, I believe the Flat Earth Society deals in junk science. Okay, fraud. But those who have sensed or experienced the supernatural, who have reasoned and considered laws of probability, and who find the alternative implausible, intelligent design is not only reasonable but fact. They just can't prove it scientifically, at least yet. Science is useless to explain love, original thought, creativity, etc. too, but most of us agree that such things exist.

So should teachers teach intelligent design? Of course not. But should they discount it as a possibility? Of course not. When ID is in conflict with science, all s/he has to do is tell her class that there is much that we do not yet know and for which there is no scientific basis, and we're going to focus for now on what we do know and that for which there is a scientific basis. So keep an open mind, but learn the stuff you will have to pass on your science test, and ID won't be there.
 
AlbqOwl said:
So should teachers teach intelligent design? Of course not. But should they discount it as a possibility? Of course not. When ID is in conflict with science, all s/he has to do is tell her class that there is much that we do not yet know and for which there is no scientific basis, and we're going to focus for now on what we do know and that for which there is a scientific basis. So keep an open mind, but learn the stuff you will have to pass on your science test, and ID won't be there.

Teachers are not going to be allowed to teach intelligent design in public schools in this country, and shouldn't try to, as you say. They don't have to discount it either, in their personal belief system, but it is a belief that has no place in science curriculum. I may have unflappable faith that the Gods upon Olympus rule all, but if I were a public school teacher instructing my students that this is a possibility that should be seriously considered as an alternative to evolution, I think you would want me fired from my position, or at least forced to stop this behavior, as would any reasonable person.
 
AlbqOwl said:
If a person read a science text that casually mentioned that the earth and other hard heavenly objects are spheres, and then read the exhaustive 'scientific' opinion from the Flat Earth society, the Flat Earth society would look very authentic. That's the problem with all junk science: it looks so authentic. Get a few hundred or thousand other obscure people in scientific fields who agree with or at least don't dispute the report, and voila: you have a compelling consensus of scientific opinion.
Nope, you got a BELIEF. It is not "Scientific" until the data has been evaluated through the Scientific Method. THAT is what you are not grasping here, that science is not a consensus but rather about what the data actually shows.
Because of what scientific education I've had coupled with simple logic, I believe the Flat Earth Society deals in junk science. Okay, fraud. But those who have sensed or experienced the supernatural, who have reasoned and considered laws of probability, and who find the alternative implausible, intelligent design is not only reasonable but fact.
Ah, a misrepresentation. "Fact" is something that can be proven, something that has actual evidence for it beyond wishful thinking and "I can't believe it didn't happen this way" postulations.

And when the evidence directly goes AGAINST the claims, yet people continue to claim it to be "fact" and even will misrepresent science to make their point, then you have the flat earthers. You ALSO have the ID pushers, as that is exactly what they are doing, and you certainly have the creationists there as well.

So YOU have decided that the flat-earthers are different than the ID crowd and the creationists because the latter have "faith. They are as dishonest and false in their claims as the flat-earthers are.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM.
They just can't prove it scientifically, at least yet.
It is more than that. Their claims have been directly disproved. They are deliberately distorting scientific claims. They are engaging in junk science and outright fraud. Again fervent faith is NOT a substitution for factual info, and to merely claim their validity because YOU are not aware of the science and the direct deception in the ID and creationist claims, that is the failing of YOU not being educated enough about what you defend.
Science is useless to explain love, original thought, creativity, etc. too, but most of us agree that such things exist.
Quite. Science doesn't deal with what can't be quantified and measured. Science deals with the "What" and the "How," not with the "Why." That is inherent in science. It also means that anything like that has nothing to do with science and that trying to present it as an alternative," thus is flagrantly dishonest.
So should teachers teach intelligent design? Of course not.
They can, but not in science class.
But should they discount it as a possibility? Of course not.
Ah, just like they shouldn't discount that the Earth might be flat and that they shouldn't discount that 2+2 might be 5.

Yes, that is EXACTLY the same.
When ID is in conflict with science, all s/he has to do is tell her class that there is much that we do not yet know and for which there is no scientific basis, and we're going to focus for now on what we do know and that for which there is a scientific basis. So keep an open mind, but learn the stuff you will have to pass on your science test, and ID won't be there.
yes, be sure to tell the kids that regarding the shape of the Earth, the makeup of atoms, the Germ Theory of Disease and every other scientific concept we teach. be sure to teach the kids that it is all wild speculation and that crackpot wild beliefs are certainly as valid to entertain as solid, evidence-based facts. What a great idea

Sorry, but to me, your idea is outright stupid and deceptive, it is child abuse.
 
The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God

The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God

The evildoers who got the motto IN GOD WE TRUST impressed on the United State’s coins despised the men who established our system of government and considered men like James Madison to be heathens who disowned God. The evil ones were successful largely because of the increase in Counterfeit Christian sentiment that existed during and after the Civil War.

A Rev. M.R. Watkinson, who was part of a larger campaign waged by a coalition of phony Christians, disenchanted with the exemption of religion from the cognizance of government established by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Hoping to make some changes, Rev. Watkinson wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Samuel P. Chase in 1861. Secretary Chase was an advocate of government authority over religion and received other appeals from Counterfeit Christians urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. Rev. Watkinson’s letter dated November 13, 1861 read as follows:

(The comments in red are those of Fred Flash)


Dear Sir:

You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances. One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked.

I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? (He just accused the noble men who established our system of government of being heathens)

What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.

This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. (It was with a kiss that Judas betrayed his divine Master; and we should all be admonished -- no matter what our faith may be -- that the rights of conscience cannot be so successfully assailed as under the pretext of holiness)


This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. (He again charges the founding fathers of heathenism) This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God (Separating civil authority from the duty that we are to render only to God - as we were directed to do by the Savior according to the holy scriptures - is distorted by this evil pervert into a disowning of God) as not the least of our present national disasters.

To you first I address a subject that must be agitated.

The United States surrendered and legitimate right to claim it was a genuine Christian Nation when the American people did not take up the terrible swift sword and extirpate the wicked government stooges who passed the 1860's bill that authorized the government to declare the people’s trust in God on the nation’s coins. The people might just as well have sworn allegiance to a devil and attended worship service in the Temple of the Serpent.

FVF
 
Re: The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God

FredFlash said:
The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God

The evildoers who got the motto IN GOD WE TRUST impressed on the United State’s coins despised the men who established our system of government and considered men like James Madison to be heathens who disowned God. The evil ones were successful largely because of the increase in Counterfeit Christian sentiment that existed during and after the Civil War.

A Rev. M.R. Watkinson, who was part of a larger campaign waged by a coalition of phony Christians, disenchanted with the exemption of religion from the cognizance of government established by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Hoping to make some changes, Rev. Watkinson wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Samuel P. Chase in 1861. Secretary Chase was an advocate of government authority over religion and received other appeals from Counterfeit Christians urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. Rev. Watkinson’s letter dated November 13, 1861 read as follows:

(The comments in red are those of Fred Flash)


Dear Sir:

You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances. One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked.

I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? (He just accused the noble men who established our system of government of being heathens)

What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.

This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. (It was with a kiss that Judas betrayed his divine Master; and we should all be admonished -- no matter what our faith may be -- that the rights of conscience cannot be so successfully assailed as under the pretext of holiness)


This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. (He again charges the founding fathers of heathenism) This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God (Separating civil authority from the duty that we are to render only to God - as we were directed to do by the Savior according to the holy scriptures - is distorted by this evil pervert into a disowning of God) as not the least of our present national disasters.

To you first I address a subject that must be agitated.

The United States surrendered and legitimate right to claim it was a genuine Christian Nation when the American people did not take up the terrible swift sword and extirpate the wicked government stooges who passed the 1860's bill that authorized the government to declare the people’s trust in God on the nation’s coins. The people might just as well have sworn allegiance to a devil and attended worship service in the Temple of the Serpent.

FVF

Quite a few people on this site think the Founding Fathers created our religious oaths and mottos. But all of them came later. The above led to an action that allowed the 'In God We Trust' on money. But in the mid 20th century, Congress mandated the phrase be printed on our currency. I think some of us have become more alert lately to these schemes, and try to catch any new religious endorsements (ID), and hope to eradicate existing ones.

This was a good thread last year, maybe you can bring it back to life.
 
Re: The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God

tryreading said:
Quite a few people on this site think the Founding Fathers created our religious oaths and mottos. But all of them came later. The above led to an action that allowed the 'In God We Trust' on money. But in the mid 20th century, Congress mandated the phrase be printed on our currency. I think some of us have become more alert lately to these schemes, and try to catch any new religious endorsements (ID), and hope to eradicate existing ones.

This was a good thread last year, maybe you can bring it back to life.

I'll repeat a couple of facts from another post I did. The pledge was written by a socialist and the song "God Bless America" by a known Atheist/Agnostic. Delicious.
 
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