• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Does mental illness really make one more dangerous?

Masterhawk

DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2016
Messages
1,808
Reaction score
415
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Many gun control advocates (including some republicans) believe that the mentally ill should not own guns. The premise is that those with a mental illness are more likely to be violent.

But is that really true?

Studies show that individuals with a mental illness are no more likely to commit crimes than their non mentally ill counterparts, but they are more likely to be victims of violence. Crime is more heavily related to alcohol and drug abuse than mental illness.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/mental-illness-and-violence
https://theconversation.com/mental-...you-may-not-know-about-the-complexities-92337
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...72/mental-illness-gun-homicide-mass-shootings
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health...ds-to-gun-violence-heres-why-doctors-disagree
Most Violent Crimes Are Wrongly Linked to Mental Illness | Time
 

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
125,297
Reaction score
37,678
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Some mental illness. Not all. The ones that make people unpredictably violent or without empathy. That sort of illness. That sort of illness does commit more crimes.

But it's not about crime rates. It's about facilities.
 

Arby

Deplorable
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
497
Reaction score
190
Location
PA.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Some mental illness. Not all. The ones that make people unpredictably violent or without empathy. That sort of illness. That sort of illness does commit more crimes.

But it's not about crime rates. It's about facilities.

Should we build more institutions?
 

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
125,297
Reaction score
37,678
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Should we build more institutions?

I think the question is, "at what point do we draw the line on out-patients". There are out-patients (so to speak, I don't mean to offend if that's an improper term) that are mentally ill in a way that requires precautions if they are to enjoy non institutional life. Do we say, "if we can't trust them with a gun, lock them up"? I don't think that's always the case.

For example, what about people with lock-boxes of meds that a professional must come to their residence and administer every day. I don't see a gun being a good idea there.

It's not my field or one of my interests (mental illness) so I don't know any of the details of the considerations I propose above.
 
Last edited:

Arby

Deplorable
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
497
Reaction score
190
Location
PA.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I think the question is, "at what point do we draw the line on out-patients". There are out-patients (so to speak, I don't mean to offend if that's an improper term) that are mentally ill in a way that requires precautions if they are to enjoy non institutional life. Do we say, "if we can't trust them with a gun, lock them up"? I don't think that's always the case.

For example, what about people with lock-boxes of meds that a professional must come to their residence and administer every day. I don't see a gun being a good idea there.

It's not my field or one of my interests (mental illness) so I don't know any of the details of the considerations I propose above.

I was just curious. I agree with you questioning where we draw the line.
 

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
125,297
Reaction score
37,678
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I was just curious. I agree with you questioning where we draw the line.

Fwiw, I'm very pro gun. I'm just trying to be realistic on a subject I'm only half versed in (the gun rights half).
 

KevinKohler

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
23,690
Reaction score
11,069
Location
CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Many gun control advocates (including some republicans) believe that the mentally ill should not own guns. The premise is that those with a mental illness are more likely to be violent.

But is that really true?

Studies show that individuals with a mental illness are no more likely to commit crimes than their non mentally ill counterparts, but they are more likely to be victims of violence. Crime is more heavily related to alcohol and drug abuse than mental illness.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/mental-illness-and-violence
https://theconversation.com/mental-...you-may-not-know-about-the-complexities-92337
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...72/mental-illness-gun-homicide-mass-shootings
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health...ds-to-gun-violence-heres-why-doctors-disagree
Most Violent Crimes Are Wrongly Linked to Mental Illness | Time

Substance abuse is a mental illness, just ask your friendly local shrink.
 

Xelor

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
4,161
Location
Washington, D.C.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Does mental illness really make one more dangerous?....Many gun control advocates (including some republicans) believe that the mentally ill should not own guns. The premise is that those with a mental illness are more likely to be violent.

But is that really true?

Studies show that individuals with a mental illness are no more likely to commit crimes than their non mentally ill counterparts, but they are more likely to be victims of violence. Crime is more heavily related to alcohol and drug abuse than mental illness.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/mental-illness-and-violence
https://theconversation.com/mental-...you-may-not-know-about-the-complexities-92337
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...72/mental-illness-gun-homicide-mass-shootings
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health...ds-to-gun-violence-heres-why-doctors-disagree
Most Violent Crimes Are Wrongly Linked to Mental Illness | Time


Red:
Good attempt at a straw man. The premise is not that mentally ill people are more violent; it's that certain traits, mental illness being one, are "red flags" indicating that one may have poor judgment and as such behave, at time, imprudently.


Blue:
I'm not about to refute the general finding you've cited. I will, however, note that you've over-generalized the findings. To wit:
  • Harvard article:
    • "Most individuals with psychiatric disorders are not violent. Although a subset of people with psychiatric disorders commit assaults and violent crimes, findings have been inconsistent about how much mental illness contributes to this behavior and how much substance abuse and other factors do.
    • Although it is possible to make a general assessment of relative risk, it is impossible to predict an individual, specific act of violence, given that such acts tend to occur when the perpetrator is highly emotional. During a clinical session, the same person may be guarded, less emotional, and even thoughtful, thereby masking any signs of violent intent.
    • Borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, conduct disorder, and other personality disorders often manifest in aggression or violence. When a personality disorder occurs in conjunction with another psychiatric disorder, the combination may also increase risk of violent behavior.
    • Patients with paranoid delusions, command hallucinations, and florid psychotic thoughts may be more likely to become violent than other patients.
    • The research suggests that adequate treatment of mental illness and substance abuse may help reduce rates of violence. For example, in one study, [it was] found that most patients with schizophrenia who took antipsychotics as prescribed were less likely to be violent than those who did not. An exception to this general trend occurred in participants who were diagnosed with a conduct disorder during childhood. No medication proved better than the others in reducing rates of violence.
There are many forms of mental illness, and, yes, not all of them militate that one be considered a violence risk; however, some do, and people afflicted with those mental illness types are the folks whom gun control advocates had rather see precluded from possessing guns.
 

KevinKohler

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
23,690
Reaction score
11,069
Location
CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Red:
Good attempt at a straw man. The premise is not that mentally ill people are more violent; it's that certain traits, mental illness being one, are "red flags" indicating that one may have poor judgment and as such behave, at time, imprudently.


Blue:
I'm not about to refute the general finding you've cited. I will, however, note that you've over-generalized the findings. To wit:
  • Harvard article:
    • "Most individuals with psychiatric disorders are not violent. Although a subset of people with psychiatric disorders commit assaults and violent crimes, findings have been inconsistent about how much mental illness contributes to this behavior and how much substance abuse and other factors do.
    • Although it is possible to make a general assessment of relative risk, it is impossible to predict an individual, specific act of violence, given that such acts tend to occur when the perpetrator is highly emotional. During a clinical session, the same person may be guarded, less emotional, and even thoughtful, thereby masking any signs of violent intent.
    • Borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, conduct disorder, and other personality disorders often manifest in aggression or violence. When a personality disorder occurs in conjunction with another psychiatric disorder, the combination may also increase risk of violent behavior.
    • Patients with paranoid delusions, command hallucinations, and florid psychotic thoughts may be more likely to become violent than other patients.
    • The research suggests that adequate treatment of mental illness and substance abuse may help reduce rates of violence. For example, in one study, [it was] found that most patients with schizophrenia who took antipsychotics as prescribed were less likely to be violent than those who did not. An exception to this general trend occurred in participants who were diagnosed with a conduct disorder during childhood. No medication proved better than the others in reducing rates of violence.
There are many forms of mental illness, and, yes, not all of them militate that one be considered a violence risk; however, some do, and people afflicted with those mental illness types are the folks whom gun control advocates had rather see precluded from possessing guns.

The trick is identification. Mental illness is a sliding scale. How autistic is too autistic? A little obsessive compulsive? Bolemic? When does narcissism end and sociopathy begin?

George Carlin once said..."Its the quiet ones you gotta watch out for....OH yeah? Well, while you're watching the quiet ones, a noisy one is gonna come along and freaking kill you!"
 

Xelor

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
4,161
Location
Washington, D.C.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The trick is identification. Mental illness is a sliding scale. How autistic is too autistic? A little obsessive compulsive? Bolemic? When does narcissism end and sociopathy begin?

George Carlin once said..."Its the quiet ones you gotta watch out for....OH yeah? Well, while you're watching the quiet ones, a noisy one is gonna come along and freaking kill you!"

Red:
Well, therein is seen the problem with comedic logic. Serious, sage, and/or prescient people will mind the quiet ones and the loud ones, not because they're noisy or not, but because they aren't "right in the head."
 

zsu2357

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2017
Messages
6,677
Reaction score
1,904
Location
Great state of (cough,cough)Oregon
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Sounds a lot like the current prison system. If they have shown they can't be trusted with firearms (armed robbery etc.)then yeah lock them up,but as you point out that's not always the case.

For example, what about people with lock-boxes of meds that a professional must come to their residence and administer every day.
I don't see a gun being a good idea there.
Is that any med under that criteria or just certain? Not being an ass here. I wonder because one time I had to take B12 injections "OOOOhhh"anyway the DR. ask if I would like to have someone come by (work hrs. and her office hrs. were way off). I said BS I'll do it my self.
It's not my field or one of my interests (mental illness) so I don't know any of the details of the considerations I propose above.
 
Last edited:

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
125,297
Reaction score
37,678
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Is that any med under that criteria or just certain? Not being an ass here. I wonder because one time I had to take B12 injections "OOOOhhh"anyway the DR. ask if I would like to have someone come by (work hrs. and her office hrs. were way off). I said BS I'll do it my self.

First, I don't think B12 is prescribed to treat mental illness. I don't think you understand what I was describing.

There are people with serious mental illness, on the verge of institutionalization. They are required to keep their meds in a locked box in their residence to which they do not have a key. A professional comes every day, takes out the xanax and such, and administers the meds. Not shots. Just watching to make sure they take their pills.

I don't think a gun is a good idea for that person. Do you? Do you believe justice would be served by locking them up since we don't want them to have a gun?
 

zsu2357

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2017
Messages
6,677
Reaction score
1,904
Location
Great state of (cough,cough)Oregon
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
=ecofarm;1069404580]First, I don't think B12 is prescribed to treat mental illness. I don't think you understand what I was describing.
I realize that. Also I fu*ked up my reply as you can see. Just used as an example of meds. Probably been a notation in the DRs. notes "warrants further observation"lol. I think.
There are people with serious mental illness, on the verge of institutionalization.
Granted, but do they receive any help other than being doped up? We are very quick to put people in prison but just as quick to let them go.
They are required to keep their meds in a locked box in their residence to which they do not have a key. A professional comes every day, takes out the xanax and such, and administers the meds. Not shots. Just watching to make sure they take their pills.
I don't claim to be a rocket scientist but do they do that with Xanax? Reason I wonder is that my daughter takes it or did.
I don't think a gun is a good idea for that person. Do you? Do you believe justice would be served by locking them up since we don't want them to have a gun?
No she's not psychotic or takes it to high but rather for pain and sometimes anxiety. Do I trust her with a firearm? Absolutely. But those are her circumstances.
 

KevinKohler

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
23,690
Reaction score
11,069
Location
CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Red:
Well, therein is seen the problem with comedic logic. Serious, sage, and/or prescient people will mind the quiet ones and the loud ones, not because they're noisy or not, but because they aren't "right in the head."

The difference is scale. A "quiet one" will kill 5, 10, maybe 50 people. A noisy one will kill thousands, hundreds of thousands.
 

Bullseye

Fund police; Defund the politicians
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
33,484
Reaction score
11,146
Location
San Diego
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Many gun control advocates (including some republicans) believe that the mentally ill should not own guns. The premise is that those with a mental illness are more likely to be violent.

But is that really true?

Studies show that individuals with a mental illness are no more likely to commit crimes than their non mentally ill counterparts, but they are more likely to be victims of violence. Crime is more heavily related to alcohol and drug abuse than mental illness.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/mental-illness-and-violence
https://theconversation.com/mental-...you-may-not-know-about-the-complexities-92337
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...72/mental-illness-gun-homicide-mass-shootings
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health...ds-to-gun-violence-heres-why-doctors-disagree
Most Violent Crimes Are Wrongly Linked to Mental Illness | Time
You're trying to apply too wide a net. NO, not every form of mental illness is prohibitive of owning guns. That's never been the point. But there are certain diagnoses that may indicate the patient could be a risk to himself or others or at least require further examination. Most proposals I've seen require a legal hearing to determine whether the individual should be allowed to have guns.
 

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
53,183
Reaction score
10,802
Location
Houston, in the great state of Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Many gun control advocates (including some republicans) believe that the mentally ill should not own guns. The premise is that those with a mental illness are more likely to be violent.

But is that really true?

Studies show that individuals with a mental illness are no more likely to commit crimes than their non mentally ill counterparts, but they are more likely to be victims of violence. Crime is more heavily related to alcohol and drug abuse than mental illness.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/mental-illness-and-violence
https://theconversation.com/mental-...you-may-not-know-about-the-complexities-92337
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...72/mental-illness-gun-homicide-mass-shootings
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health...ds-to-gun-violence-heres-why-doctors-disagree
Most Violent Crimes Are Wrongly Linked to Mental Illness | Time

I think it really all depends on the illness, and how people are treated. But no mental illness in and of itself is not something that makes someone dangerous in fact most of what I hear is that people who suffer from mental illness are more likely to be victims then perpetrators
 

Rich2018

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 31, 2018
Messages
37,812
Reaction score
3,311
Location
Norcross, Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
If everyone was banned from owning a gun, wouldn't that resolve the mental illness problem ?
 

Helix

Administrator
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
74,899
Reaction score
58,716
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Does mental illness really make one more dangerous?

depends. plenty of people with mental illnesses are not going to shoot up up a public place. there are definitely some mentally ill people who shouldn't be packing machine guns, though. gun rights advocates should support identifying people like that. if enough violent nutters slaughter people with high capacity weapons, that doesn't bode well for your gun rights.
 

Rich2018

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 31, 2018
Messages
37,812
Reaction score
3,311
Location
Norcross, Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
depends. plenty of people with mental illnesses are not going to shoot up up a public place. there are definitely some mentally ill people who shouldn't be packing machine guns, though. gun rights advocates should support identifying people like that. if enough violent nutters slaughter people with high capacity weapons, that doesn't bode well for your gun rights.

I would say anyone with a mental illness and who also owns a gun is more dangerous than they were before they became mentally ill.

Not necessarily to other people.
 

Arby

Deplorable
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
497
Reaction score
190
Location
PA.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Not according to all available research.

According to reality, it is. You chose to stick that needle, fire up that pipe and/or pop that pill.
 

Casado

New member
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
37
Reaction score
11
Location
Deep South
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
It depends on the particular illness and how it manifests itself.
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
262,879
Reaction score
81,169
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
It depends on the particular illness and how it manifests itself.

exactly-just like some illnesses would require a person losing a driver's license while others would not.
 

Rucker61

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
15,651
Reaction score
6,684
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
According to reality, it is. You chose to stick that needle, fire up that pipe and/or pop that pill.

Some medical procedures necessitate the needle or the pill, and the addiction arises afterwards.
 
Top Bottom